Something to ponder.....

[Gregg M]

Dennis, nothing in either of my post was directed at you.... If you do not produce or keep voids I have no problem with you.... LOL

Microchipping is not an evasive surgery like void operations.... Microchips are injected under the skin..... There is a HUGE difference....

There is plenty of proof out there for you to find about snake venom aiding in digestion.... Plus all you need to do is use a little common sense.... Why else would most vipers have such necrotic venom??? Tell you what, I will do a bit of digging for you and post the info even though you should be doing it yourself.....

As far as inbreeding goes in reptile populations goes, it has been going on before man and continues to this day..... Man has nothing to do with inbreeding in reptile populations..... Populations are separated by natural causes..... There are small island populations, populations in valleys, populations separated by other land formations and so on.... How do you think subspecies are formed??? Tell me something.... How do you think all of these recessive morphs came about??? These are genetics that are from wild caught animals..... For example Tremper albino leos cam from wild caught animals that were 100% het for albino.... How do you think 100% hets come about??? There are obviously albinos in the wild that are thriving at least to breeding age..... There are many examples of adult albino reptiles caught in the wild.....

Inbreeding in nature happens alot more than you obviously think.... Infact, in some areas it is quite common..... There are many examples of recessive genetics taking over the wild type genetics in isolated populations..... For whatever reason the recessive morph worked out better than the wild type..... In order for this to happen, there has to be more than just a little bit of inbreeding going on..... Like I said, nature does not go by our moral code or our religions.....

I have a question, do you believe in evolution or creation???? If you believe in evolution, you must know that there had to be alot of inbreeding going on in order for us to have evolved the way we did.... And if you believe in creation, than you must know that there had to be inbreeding going on if our existence started with only one man and one woman..... I happen to lean on the evolution side of things... Inbreeding is a natural part of nature wether you like it or not......

 

[hhmoore]

I brought that up because they are both surgeries(microchipping & devenom..)

comparing microchipping to getting one's ears pierced would be much closer.

Tell me where to find an Albino or Pied population I'll be on the next plane...lol
Seriously though im sure there is inbreeding in nature somewhere but We can probably contribute that to man or major catastrophy

exactly where do you think the majority of morphs come from?? wild populations. you think that breeders tossed in some magic dust to make the first albinos - they were imported. yes, some of the "designer" morphs came by mixing and matching various traits...something unlikely to have the time to occur in nature because of the way they stand out (see one of my first posts on this thread).

I came here looking for information but have yet to find it

with all due respect, you've been given a lot of information...just because it isn't in the form you seek, doesn't negate the facts. you can discount it all because all the scientific studies were not quoted and linked - that is your choice. I did a lot of investigation on this subject years ago, the information is out there. I managed to find it; I'm sure you could to. If you are really interested.
I'm done here.

 

[Clay Davenport]

Plus all you need to do is use a little common sense.... Why else would most vipers have such necrotic venom???

This is an excellent point. necrotic venom serves only to break down the tissue. To cause death solely from the breaking down of cell structure would either require large amounts of venom or extremely potent versions of it.
Neurotoxic venom is an extremely effecient killer, but causing death is it's purpose whereas hemotoxic venom serves as a pre-digestive component.
If the only benefit venom offered to the snake was to procure the prey effeciently, then neurotoxic venom would be all that is needed. The existance of hemotoxic venom and it's primary purpose being cell destruction is significant evidence in itself that it is a definate benefit to the snake.

You can want deifnitive studies on the effects of devenomizing on longevity and health but they simply aren't there, and in all probability there will never be anything beyond anecdotal evidence on the subject.
At some point you just have to look at the whole picture and add some common sense and make an educated assumption.
If you approach the topic with an unbiased point of view, then it becomes obvious that there's much more probability that they need their venom than there is that they operate equally as well without it.

 

[Dennis1]

Dennis, nothing in either of my post was directed at you.... If you do not produce or keep voids I have no problem with you.... LOL

Cool but i would like to get one geneticly engineered to be venomless...j/k

Microchipping is not an evasive surgery like void operations.... Microchips are injected under the skin..... There is a HUGE difference....

Im not a doctor so i will have to take your word for it, I was just curious if there is any rejection going on?

There is plenty of proof out there for you to find about snake venom aiding in digestion.... Plus all you need to do is use a little common sense.... Why else would most vipers have such necrotic venom??? Tell you what, I will do a bit of digging for you and post the info even though you should be doing it yourself.....

I definetly would if i knew where to look

As far as inbreeding goes in reptile populations goes, it has been going on before man and continues to this day..... Man has nothing to do with inbreeding in reptile populations..... Populations are separated by natural causes..... There are small island populations, populations in valleys, populations separated by other land formations and so on.... Tell me something.... How do you think all of these recessive morphs can about??? These are genetics that are from wild caught animals..... For example Tremper albino leos cam from wild caught animals that were 100% het for albino.... How do you think 100% hets come about??? There are obviously albinos in the wild that are thriving at least to breeding age..... There are many examples of adult albino reptiles caught in the wild.....

Im not sure but i would say that a morph is a mutation?
Yeah im sure there are albinos born in the wild Which makes my point
Most dont survive to adulthood in the wild because they are inferior if they werent then you would see populations of them.

Inbreeding in nature happens alot more than you obviously think.... Infact, in some areas it is quite common..... There are many examples of recessive genetics taking over the wild type genetics in isolated populations..... For whatever reason the recessive morph worked out better than the wild type..... In order for this to happen, there has to be more than just a little bit of inbreeding going on..... Like I said, nature does not go by our moral code or our religions.....

Dont get me wrong, I dont think all morphs are inferior but the one that we breed in our aquariums cages and in sweater boxes nor their offspring are never going to survive in the wild for long they will either be assimilated or killed.

I have a question, do you believe in evolution or creation???? If you believe in evolution, you must know that there had to be alot of inbreeding going on in order for us to have evolved the way we did.... And if you believe in creation, than you must know that there had to be inbreeding going on if our existence started with only one man and one woman..... I happen to lean on the evolution side of things... Inbreeding is a natural part of nature wether you like it or not......

Inbreeding in populations is not the same as inbreeding in family's
Hey its legal to marry your second cousin...lol
I was brought up a southern Baptist so i guess i would fall under the creationist catergory
I believe there is a higher power at work and when we try to mimic it we fall just a little short... But it is so much fun...lol

I'm glad we can have a pleasent conversation without anyone attacking eachother,As sometimes i have a hard time writing what i mean
I could talk all the time about genetics,I find it very interesting to say the least
I wish spellcheck could arrange my sentences and place all the . , ' " in the right places...lol

 

[Dennis1]

This is an excellent point. necrotic venom serves only to break down the tissue. To cause death solely from the breaking down of cell structure would either require large amounts of venom or extremely potent versions of it.
Neurotoxic venom is an extremely effecient killer, but causing death is it's purpose whereas hemotoxic venom serves as a pre-digestive component.
If the only benefit venom offered to the snake was to procure the prey effeciently, then neurotoxic venom would be all that is needed. The existance of hemotoxic venom and it's primary purpose being cell destruction is significant evidence in itself that it is a definate benefit to the snake.

You can want deifnitive studies on the effects of devenomizing on longevity and health but they simply aren't there, and in all probability there will never be anything beyond anecdotal evidence on the subject.
At some point you just have to look at the whole picture and add some common sense and make an educated assumption.
If you approach the topic with an unbiased point of view, then it becomes obvious that there's much more probability that they need their venom than there is that they operate equally as well without it.

Why?
And what kind of venom does a monacled cobra have?
I havent heard any facts either way how can i make an educated oppinion without any education on the subject?

 

[Dennis1]

comparing microchipping to getting one's ears pierced would be much closer.

I wasnt sure if it was good for the snake or not

exactly where do you think the majority of morphs come from?? wild populations. you think that breeders tossed in some magic dust to make the first albinos - they were imported. yes, some of the "designer" morphs came by mixing and matching various traits...something unlikely to have the time to occur in nature because of the way they stand out (see one of my first posts on this thread).

I'll take a pound of magic dust...lol
the point is not where they come from whether it be random mutations or some exceptions to the rule the point is they are inferior and the more we breed the desired traits the more we breed undesired traits which has been proven time and again in dogs, cats, fish,etc...

 

[Clay Davenport]

And what kind of venom does a monacled cobra have?

Monocled cobras as with virtually if not all hots posess a combination venom. Their venom is comprised of both neurotoxic and hemotoxic compounds and a bit does cause necrosis.
Venom is an extremely complex substance, and no venom is exclusively any one thing, it is a mixture of various proteins with varying effects.
The elapid family has venom which is primarily neurotoxic, but it is far from without hemotoxic compounds. The reverse can be said of many viperids which have a primarily hemotoxic venom, with additional neurotoxic properties..

 

[hhmoore]

ok - I lied

Gregg - looks like you were finishing your post as I was starting mine...thanks for joining the party.
Dennis, you keep saying that you are here looking for information; but when you are given information, you say that you keep hearing it, but noone has shown you proof. The first step to acquiring knowledge is being open to information. Now, do you want to be taught? Or do you want to learn? If you want to be taught, again, you must be open to receiving information...AND you must make the decision to accept some of what you are told. If, instead, you want to learn, you must take on some of the responsibility. You have been given a good platform to start from - pick the pieces you want more information on and do some looking.

As far as morphs being mutations - some are are. others would be closer related to varying skin pigmentation. are the various races of humans "mutations" because they have different colored skin?? Also, the fact that there are fewer adult morphs in the wild is not due largely to an inherent weakness, as you suggest. Think about the reason that snakes have the cryptic patterns and concealing colors - so they can blend in with their environments. A bright white and yellow BP would stick out like the proverbial sore thumb on the jungle floor. This not only enables predators to locate them, but makes them more visible to potential prey animals also. Another piece of that puzzle is that they are more visible to collectors. Abberant colored specimens bring more money so they will be snatched up.
If, in fact, they were too weak to mature and reproduce (as you have implied), why does it happen in captivity. Sure there are some problems in some of the populations, but look at how they happen...most often, a single specimen starts everything. it is raised and bred, then its offspring are raised and bred back to it (and to each other). when a specific morph is in demand, those that are focused on the money are less concerned with outbreeding to keep the bloodlines strong - that takes too much time and planning. to maximize their return, they get a pair (siblings are fine for their purpose) and start breeding. They hold a few of the babies back, and throw them into the breeding pool. After the first few generations, the problematic mutations start popping up (eye problems are very common - from the bug-eyed leucistic texas ratsnakes to eyeless albino burms and boas).
guess you got lucky - duty calls, so i have to stop here

 

[Dennis1]

Gregg - looks like you were finishing your post as I was starting mine...thanks for joining the party.
Dennis, you keep saying that you are here looking for information; but when you are given information, you say that you keep hearing it, but noone has shown you proof. The first step to acquiring knowledge is being open to information. Now, do you want to be taught? Or do you want to learn? If you want to be taught, again, you must be open to receiving information...AND you must make the decision to accept some of what you are told. If, instead, you want to learn, you must take on some of the responsibility. You have been given a good platform to start from - pick the pieces you want more information on and do some looking.

I would like to learn
I have a hard time putting my thoughts on screen evidentialy
Im pretty much saying where do i look? If and when i find the info i would gladly post it here for the others who may be asking the same question

As far as morphs being mutations - some are are. others would be closer related to varying skin pigmentation. are the various races of humans "mutations" because they have different colored skin?? Also, the fact that there are fewer adult morphs in the wild is not due largely to an inherent weakness, as you suggest. Think about the reason that snakes have the cryptic patterns and concealing colors - so they can blend in with their environments. A bright white and yellow BP would stick out like the proverbial sore thumb on the jungle floor. This not only enables predators to locate them, but makes them more visible to potential prey animals also. Another piece of that puzzle is that they are more visible to collectors. Abberant colored specimens bring more money so they will be snatched up.
If, in fact, they were too weak to mature and reproduce (as you have implied), why does it happen in captivity. Sure there are some problems in some of the populations, but look at how they happen...most often, a single specimen starts everything. it is raised and bred, then its offspring are raised and bred back to it (and to each other). when a specific morph is in demand, those that are focused on the money are less concerned with outbreeding to keep the bloodlines strong - that takes too much time and planning. to maximize their return, they get a pair (siblings are fine for their purpose) and start breeding. They hold a few of the babies back, and throw them into the breeding pool. After the first few generations, the problematic mutations start popping up (eye problems are very common - from the bug-eyed leucistic texas ratsnakes to eyeless albino burms and boas).
guess you got lucky - duty calls, so i have to stop here

Im just saying that when we strenghten the good traits we are most likely strengthening the bad as well, Doing this blindly and when money is involved is not going to help the snakes i have seen this happen in fish also

Its comes down to Whats an acceptable practice on snakes and whats not and alot of the time money is the deciding vote
We can descent,declaw,denut...lol, microchip, inbreed keep them in drawers for most of their lives send them in the mail import them and watch them die by the dozens if not hundreds subject them to all kinds of stress that they would never be subjected to in the wild
But cant devonomize them?
Makes me wonder

 

[hhmoore]

OK - so you want to learn

It seems like you need basic info first, so I'll toss you a few links. Keep in mind this is just the tip of the iceberg - there is ALOT of info available
http://reptilis.net/serpentes/venom.html
http://faculty.etsu.edu/currie/venom.htm
http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_713.html
http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pngsmc/Chapter%203%20Composition%20of%20PNG%20Snake%20Venoms.pdf#search='venom%20digestion'
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/agcomm/magazine/winter02/zero.htm

That should be enough to get you started

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Tell me where to find an Albino or Pied population I'll be on the next plane...lol

Here ya go. Please send us a postcard and take lots of pictures from your trip.
Historically, piebald ball pythons have been recorded as early as 1966. Approximately 100 miles inland from Accra, Ghana, villagers found and killed a large male specimen measuring 118 centimeters. Further findings of piebalds could not be found until the early 1980s when Tyron Dillon of California Zoological Supply brought in two adult animals, also from Ghana.
Text from THIS SITE

A WC albino is also from Ghana.
In 1989, I became aware of the possibility of the existence of an amelanistic ball python (Python regius). My friend Olaf Pronk, then of The Hague, Netherlands, had received word via Telex, that the snake had been captured in Ghana. In May of that year, I received the snake, a young male about 26 inches long. It was bright lemon yellow and clean white.
Text from This SITE

I only visited two well known ball breeders' sites to get this information. I wonder how many more WC albinos & pieds there are from all the other huge breeders out there???

 

[Dennis1]

Here ya go. Please send us a postcard and take lots of pictures from your trip.
Historically, piebald ball pythons have been recorded as early as 1966. Approximately 100 miles inland from Accra, Ghana, villagers found and killed a large male specimen measuring 118 centimeters. Further findings of piebalds could not be found until the early 1980s when Tyron Dillon of California Zoological Supply brought in two adult animals, also from Ghana.
Text from THIS SITE

A WC albino is also from Ghana.
In 1989, I became aware of the possibility of the existence of an amelanistic ball python (Python regius). My friend Olaf Pronk, then of The Hague, Netherlands, had received word via Telex, that the snake had been captured in Ghana. In May of that year, I received the snake, a young male about 26 inches long. It was bright lemon yellow and clean white.
Text from This SITE

I only visited two well known ball breeders' sites to get this information. I wonder how many more WC albinos & pieds there are from all the other huge breeders out there???

Not very many
Anyhow i asked for populations,It would be pretty stupid of me to spend all that money to travel to africa and pay for the permits(if i could even get 1)
Airfare and acomodations for 1 or 2 if i could even find one that when i can just get one from a breeder
good try though
There are no pied or albino populations in africa
very very few of them reach adulthood in the wild
I wish there were i could take a vacation and make some money at the same time

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I don't really think you can accurately say there are no albino, or pied poulations in africa. Hets count in that population also. they look normal.
The ones that are here, came from there originally. I've been to C. Amer jungles, and S. Amer jungles, and finding Normal snakes, let alone morphs, is a lot more of a task than you might think. LOL Of corse, BP's don't come from jungles, but the savanahs, and wide open plains, and brushland that they do inhabit are so vast, that any number of morphs could go undetected by man for years and years.

Take a look at the Hogg Island boa. A very "locality specific" natural hypo type, (maybe not a morph literally) but an isolated population of a BCI that looks other than normal. As another example.

But back to venom.
I think you may be looking for that burning bush. Like proof there is a god. All you can really do is read as much as you can on the subject, with an open mind, and use the best evidence at hand for your conclusions. Like I said earlier, I don't think things evolve for "no reason". Venom is an evolutionary creation.

Ciao,
Rick

 

[Gregg M]

Dennis, just like you I need proof for alot of things in order to "buy" into it, but some things can just be put together with bits of info from various places.... I dont think you need to have one page of info to say exactly what you want to hear.... Thats the fun of doing research....

You are a cool dude Dennis, and your scentence structure is just fine and I understand what you are getting at with your posts.... You are just looking for answers to good questions..... Thats why this has stayed as civil as it has.... Plus we are all adults and frankly, I am sick of fighting about stuff that can be talked out in a good convo..... I used to like the fighting but I am now reformed....LOL

Thank you hhmoore for letting me know about this thread.... It is a very interesting one indeed....

 

[Dennis1]

Dennis, just like you I need proof for alot of things in order to "buy" into it, but some things can just be put together with bits of info from various places.... I dont think you need to have one page of info to say exactly what you want to hear.... Thats the fun of doing research....

Thats just it i dont even know where to look to get factual information on this subject

You are a cool dude Dennis, and your scentence structure is just fine and I understand what you are getting at with your posts.... You are just looking for answers to good questions..... Thats why this has stayed as civil as it has.... Plus we are all adults and frankly, I am sick of fighting about stuff that can be talked out in a good convo..... I used to like the fighting but I am now reformed....LOL

LOL.. not many would agree with you at this moment
Like you i am a fighter and have a hard time running from a fight And i feel the need to keep it civil in most cases

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

For me, used key words like "venom structure" "tissue destruction by venom" "purpose venomous enzyms" ect. ect. etc......A lot of links, if you look at the path below, will take you to Universities, where in some cases, students have published their thesus on this subject, or one closely related. Alot of stuff written by Post doctoral students, professors, etc.

You can usually tell if the site is worth the time to read it thoroughly. My problem is remembering to SAVE THE LINKS. LOL Then I get to search all over when the question arises again.

Ciao,
Rick

 

[Dennis1]

I don't really think you can accurately say there are no albino, or pied poulations in africa. Hets count in that population also. they look normal.
The ones that are here, came from there originally. I've been to C. Amer jungles, and S. Amer jungles, and finding Normal snakes, let alone morphs, is a lot more of a task than you might think. LOL Of corse, BP's don't come from jungles, but the savanahs, and wide open plains, and brushland that they do inhabit are so vast, that any number of morphs could go undetected by man for years and years.

Take a look at the Hogg Island boa. A very "locality specific" natural hypo type, (maybe not a morph literally) but an isolated population of a BCI that looks other than normal. As another example.

Sounds good

But back to venom.
I think you may be looking for that burning bush. Like proof there is a god. All you can really do is read as much as you can on the subject, with an open mind, and use the best evidence at hand for your conclusions. Like I said earlier, I don't think things evolve for "no reason". Venom is an evolutionary creation.
Ciao,
Rick

You will have no argument with me there
I always thought that the venom's main purpose is to incapacitate its prey
To say it that its has another function Like to aidin digestion could be correct
But that doesn't necessarily mean that the lack of venom is detrimental in a controlled environment
In this respect the only thing that could be wrong with a venomoid would be the complications due to surgery
So if there were a medicine that didnt have any side effects i would buy it...as long as it worked...lol
And they could charge Hundreds of dollars and get it...lol

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Well, Your right. It's MAIN purpose is to kill the prey.

If there was a medicine for such a thing, I would support it over the ductectomy, and removal of glands. But I do still say that safe handling of venomous reptiles can be learned. And even if it is a void, this same safe handling should be put into practice.

O.T. Have you been to one of the "round ups"? They get a few bites every year it seems. These guys call themselves pro's. I've never seen so much careless handling of rattlers before I went to one in clearwater TX.

BTW, how do you do two quotes in one response? I've had need of that before. LOL

Ciao,
Rick

 

[Karen Hulvey]

That didn't work so well.

Trying again.

Type [/QUOTE] at the end of the text you wish to quote. Type

at the beginning of the text you wish to quote. You can leave off the = and the name of the person if you wish.

 

[Dennis1]

*QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus]Well, Your right. It's MAIN purpose is to kill the prey.

If there was a medicine for such a thing, I would support it over the ductectomy, and removal of glands. But I do still say that safe handling of venomous reptiles can be learned. And even if it is a void, this same safe handling should be put into practice.[/QUOTE]
I agree...That is to say i would definetly treat a venomoid as if it were hot


*QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus]O.T. Have you been to one of the "round ups"? They get a few bites every year it seems. These guys call themselves pro's. I've never seen so much careless handling of rattlers before I went to one in clearwater TX.[/QUOTE]
Yeah But just goes to show Accidents can happen

*QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus] [BTW, how do you do two quotes in one response? I've had need of that before. LOL
Ciao,
Rick[/QUOTE]

I replaced "[" with"*" in this *QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus] to demonstrate