• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

    =====================
    Posted 08/15/2025
    =====================


    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Something to think about in the future of reptiles

E

evansnakes

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2002
Messages
1,567
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Location
Pontiac, Michigan
I was talking to a friend last night about who had booked tables for his reptile shows and what was going on with people we both know that I have not talked to in a while. At that point something I had been pondering for quite a while was really starting to make a very strong impression on me.

It used to be in the old days (well OK, I am not that old, my old days are 80's and 90's) that you had groups of specializations in the reptiles hooby and business. You had people who were hardcore about their niche and would only work in that niche. For instance, people who were into turtles only did turtles, same with spiders, chameleons, monitors, geckos, tortoises, frogs, etc. and many of those little clicks really thought that snakes were not for them and just better left to the snake guys.

Now we are at a point, because of the explosion of the ball python market, just about everybody who works with anything has dumped part or all of their other projects and moved to ball pythons. In fact just about every reptile pet store owner and reptiles show promoter I know is now working with ball pythons. It is just amazing. And while I am enthused that this all reinforces my choice to move more heavily in the ball pythons several years back, I am becoming concerned now about the down side of the trend having a pronounced negative effect on the business.

Let me explain. We were getting to a point where so many over-imported and high loss species like chameleons, dart frogs, tree frogs, etc., were being captive bred and you had a quality alternative to poor quality imports. And it was so encuraging that so many people were breeding so many diverse species of every kind of herp so that we could leave native populations and imports as a very small percentage of the hobby and pet trade and really become a more respected and more self conscious body of people. Now with the ball pythons taking over I am seeing so many people drop what they have been working on to go into ball pythons. As this is giving the industry a huge boom at this point, where will we get that variety of species again and how many species will no longer be available to the pet trade when they can no longer be imported or collected and nobody is breeding them.

This thought has really made me think about just how much things have changed in the past 15 years. There has never been a revolution in this industry like the ball python. I just hope that everybody will really consider being more diverse and keep working with other projects and not all become one trick ponies. I know that I will always need diversity in my collection to keep me excited and enthusiastic about each new season. Just my thoughts. What do you think? Evan
 
I think that for many it is NOT love of the reptile or amphibian that is the primary motivator.

It is the search for profit.

Bottom line for many, whether they admit it or not, is to make money.
 
For me personally Evan, I only work with and sell what I enjoy keeping. This is a hobby to me first, a love affair really. I have no desire to keep and sell stuff just to make a buck. That is not what this is all about for me. If I manage to make a living off of just selling what I like, then great. If not then that is good too. Because for me the money is truly secondary.

With that being said, the big shift we are seeing is that herps have shifted from predominately a hobby/passion to predominately a business. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but yes many of the good things about the old hobby ways of doing things will be lost. Or seriously diminished.

Hopefully there will be enough of us that will continue working with the animals we love and not just the ones that make us the most money. There is a happy median in there somewhere, I hope folks find it.
 
shrap said:
Hopefully there will be enough of us that will continue working with the animals we love and not just the ones that make us the most money. There is a happy median in there somewhere, I hope folks find it.
Click to expand...

I also hope that folks figure out that ball pythons are for wimps and that Cal. Kings are THE snake of the future. Then I also hope they find my website and buy LOTS of kingsnakes from me.

LOTS is the key word above as my average king is probably worth about $75.00.

I do like them though.
 
Evan that is a very good observation. Ball pythons are great snakes, though like Wes said

Wilomn said:
I think that for many it is NOT love of the reptile or amphibian that is the primary motivator.

It is the search for profit.

Bottom line for many, whether they admit it or not, is to make money.
Click to expand...

The snakes I breed are more than a hobby to me. I am not out to get rich quick. I share what I have with others, I do presentations to teach the truth and remove the fairy tales surronding reptiles. I would not like to think of what the reptile shows will be like in the upcoming years if everone is breeding ball pythons. After you have seen the first booth you are done and can go home. Diversity is what I enjoy at the shows.
 
Wilomn said:
I also hope that folks figure out that ball pythons are for wimps and that Cal. Kings are THE snake of the future. Then I also hope they find my website and buy LOTS of kingsnakes from me.
Click to expand...
No way. Kenyan sand boas are THE snake of the future. Oh wait, maybe it's Amazon tree boas. Or cape gopher snakes.

I have to admit something. I have recently bought my first het. albino ball python and I'm thinking of buying a pair of het. piebalds. But my main reason for doing so is the fact that I really like albinos and pieds. I will never be able to drop 5k on a single animal so I figure I'll make my own. What has helped me most is that I have a friend who does have these morphs and is willing to sell 100% hets for my price. (call that cheap) I paid $100 for my het. albino male and he has a 1.1 pr of het. pieds. My price is $800.
 
Evan, I agree. I like my two Bps, I'm going the long way around to get my self a pied. I've wanted one sence I first layed eyes on it. I look at the Bp market like aftermarket parts for your vehicle. Customizing your car, theres enough Bp morphs to pick one thats all you, your color, your pattern, ect.
and I think that gave the Bp market its jumpstart, create-a-morph. A Pied goes for what $5,000-7,000 really why so much, my tops is around 500.00, I'm not in it for the money I'm in it for the snake, on day I hope to own a pied, it will be awile... thats my 2cents <!-- / message --><!-- sig --><!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
 
I would like to know how many people, having sold their collection of herps, or used their student loan money, or ran up a huge credit card bill or taken a second mortgage on their house to make that leap into "the next level", are successful. Only a few years ago it looked like there were three, maybe one or two more "top tier breeders" of ball pythons who had those high dollar ball morphs. Now the "for sales" here, at KS and I'm sure elsewhere are filled with flashy websites from names I've never heard of, with no experience, credibility and even some times not even knowing how to spell the morph they have. The fact that you can go online or go to a show and see an animal listed at 7 grand, 16 grand, $50,000 and more will continue to draw people in hoping to make that "one score", and live happily ever after in a big mansion paid for by a genetic quirk. It's like every other get rich quick scheme you see; if it were that simple, EVERYONE would be doing it and WE ALL would be millionaires. It's just not that simple. The sad thing is there is a lack of passion, and passion for whatever you may keep is what makes our community strong. It becomes all about the Benjamins...

To those of you making it work, who've put the time, dedication and complete passion for ball pythons that they have to have to maintain at that level, my hat is off to you. It's hard not to be a bit jealous when you see those kind of numbers...Like hundreds (thousands) of folks i've played the numbers over and over in my head, contemplated that big credit card bill or considered the loan, but there really is more to it than just making that big score, laying out that cash and watching it grow, and there's more to being a member of the community also...........

Last rant...it does get tiresome hearing folks try to "justify" paying 35000 dollars for a "fire" ball because bp's "only lay 4-5 eggs"...thats a crock...successful ball python breeders, raise your hands if you have females that produce consistent 6, 7, 10 egg clutches...I thought so

They are worth $35000 because people will pay $35000 for it. What happens after they start breathing again, looking at that second mortgage in a rubbermaid tub, thats the real $35000 question.




ps I have "cka" line hypo corns and even....shhhh..."cka" ghosts....$3500/$15000, but email me [email protected], we can work something out, i promise...but the real market...the "next big score"...black rats...beautiful, jet black black rat snakes...you heard it here, first, and you can thank me later...see y'all in Chicago ;*)
 
I think you guys make good points and we need people such as yourselves to stay at that hobby level and work with these animals for love and devotion to those animals. My personal credo is similar to what's being said here. I only work with animals that I like and can enjoy being around constantly. When I get bored with something I need to get rid of that project and move on to something else. That is the main reason I still have some boas, monitors and colubrids.

It is hard to find fault in the ball python though. Think about these points:

1) it is a foreign or "exotic" species so it is exempt from all these nasty native animal and endangered/protected animal laws that have caused so many people so many problems with the black rats, turtles, etc.

2) many cities and states are using the old 6' laws, stating that you can not legally keep any snakes over 6' in that state or city, so again, the ball slides in under that legislation

3) the are low maintenance compared to many other herps

4) they are almost always docile and polite animals, rarely striking unless a feeding response is involved

5) there are now over 100 proven genetic mutations with dozens more to follow each year for the next several years, at least

So they really are a great fit for this new era of government crackdowns and serious investments

Personally, I really enjoy having ball pythons. Every time I look at my pieds or hypos or something else, even after having the animals for years, they still look great and make me look forward to all the new projects down the road. It is hard not to like them.
 
i hope your wrong

i would like to think that MOST people who are into the bp are in them for the bp, not the money, i live in Washington state and in king county where i live there are so many laws and rules to what you can and can not have, but i do agree with you its hard to find any faults with the bp, i just started in these guys not more then 2 weeks ago, i didn't know about the more expensive morphs out there until i started doing reserch on these guys, think my limit on spending is about $500 for one and then it would have to be somthing i really REALLY love, sigh any chances the spiders will ever get to $500? :hehe: but in all reality i love the normal bp jus for the diifrent patterns on each and everyone
 
I got into it for the money...

Read everything before you judge me. I got into ball pythons for the money. I dont want to get rich quick, but it would be nice to make a little bit. I know people who cash in every year with thier corns... they have had them for MANY years and are at the point where they are just cashing in. I would like to be to the same point with ball pythons some day.

That all said, this by no means will mean that I dont know what I am doing, or dont love and appritiate these animals any less. Heres one thought... all these breeders looking to make money are really giving alot of BPs a good home with great meals. They may sit in small enclosures all day long, but some pythons go weeks with out moving more than a few inches in the wild. I have spared no expence to educate my self in BPs.

Are BP investors hurting the reptile market?? Maybe right now they are, but what they are really doing is bringing a ton more money into the reptile market. Also just like cornsnakes, the prices will drop on BPs and will be reasonable. Do you think the first albino corns where cheap? Do you think everyone could get one?

Do poeple make money on BPs? Oh yah, they make very good money. Every big and small breeder I have talked to that has owned pastels or albinos for more than 2 years has made a killing. You tell me what other market you can make a $5000 investment and 2 years later double it, and for the next 10 years have it pay only 40% less each year. But then it gets more complex. Each year you can keep some offspring and raise them up, off setting the 40% loss each year. You show me another market that will do that well, and I will invest in it too! Of course there is a chance somethign will die or not produce, you take that same risk in EVERYTHING. Any investment that has high return, will have high risk... it comes with the package.

In the end, you will end up with alot more money and people in the reptile market that never where before. When BPs start to go low in price, you will see them start to invest in other stuff, and thus the "other stuff" will once again be seen. Every market is like this. It will be ok. Dont worry.

Ben
American Tropics
 
Ben, your view is a bit skewed on this subject. You have to feed the snakes, electricity for heat costs money, your time to clean and care for the animals has some dollar value to it, substrate may or may not cost money depending on what you use. So you go and buy snakes and then you continue to invest money in them and their care every week for as long as you own them. AND not everyone is scoring big! Just because you buy snakes does not mena they will breed. Because they breed does not mean you will get eggs. Because you get eggs does not mean they are fertile. Because they are fertile does not mean you will hatch them. Because they hatch does not mean the will live, eat or be mutations (pastel x normal etc.).

Everybody seems to think that if you put up the money to buy the animals you will then get rich. It doesn't work that way. The first time you pay big money for a snake and it dies you will learn that the hard way. We have all had that happen to us.
 
I think that the people who get into Ball's to "get rich quick" aren't going to last long :) They aren't a get rich quick thing. My husband on one hand yes sees the investment wich is great cause when I say hey honey I want to get that ball python, the answer is usually yes. He has no problem with us spending money on them because long run, sure we'll sell the babies. As for the heating, water, etc.. ours hasn't increased significantly in the three years we've had BP's and this year will be the first year breeding. Now the racks are another story, lol, those cost and the custom incubator :) To me I just can't wait to hatch out some babies, I'm going the long way with het males, normal females for the most of it but I don't mind. Since I'm already a stay at home mom, don't need to worry about replacing my job. I'm happy if they will pay for me to get a new morph next year, would love to get a spider to pair with my pastel :p
 
Ben, I know what the discussion is about as I started the thread and I know how the market and business works as I have been a part of it for many many years. You not only changed the subject but don't seem to understand what I said. Your responses are not relevant and your reasoning is based only on what you are doing.
 
Ben, you seem really defensive now. Remove the "what ifs" and look back at the main question. What are other people's thoughts about the changes in the reptile community. Did you drop your collection to get into ball pythons? That is what we really want to know.

A lot of people have seen others sell their collections to get into ball pythons. There is nothing wrong with a person who loves the new morphs. It seems everyone is in on it now, it also is not a get rich quick thing, as a lot of people know at shows there is more trading between breeders than there is in selling the snakes. You have started out on a business venture with the ball pythons, I wish you the most success.

I too have a couple ball pythons and my own plans with them, I am not in it solely for the money, I am in it for the ball python I would like to own. I am into boa constrictors, those are the snakes I love the most. That is what I want to share with others.

Personally I would like to see a lot more than just ball pythons at the shows. "Rack builders" are selling ball morphs, the "amphibian guy" is sell ball morphs, the "cricket man" is selling ball morphs, and the "chameleon guy" is selling ball morphs, heck this last show I was at the guy who made dead bug jewelry and conversation pieces was selling ball morphs. I would like to see the diversity of the herp trade be very large and very different.

If you are planning to be as big and well known as Ralph Davis and Bob Clark, good, you do just that. Take that passion and run with it. This thread is not here to attack you because you are out to make money.
 
theres nothing wrong with having a plan....

i have always been the type of person to be into 1 thing only,last time i was into ANY reptiles was almost 8 years ago, and i was in bearded dragons, i had a personal family tradgedy that ended up with my moving into a place where i could not have any reptiles with that said...
i have seen alot of people on here who have gotten into BP and thats good, to me and my thinking at least, BUT, not at the expense of other reptiles, i think thats what Even is trying to say, if you were into dragons or geckos or whatever still keep doing that just add the BP to the mix and don't completely cut out your other interests
can you imagine if the bearded dragons for an example were to be not bred any more......
thats my 2 cents on the whole subject
 
hmmm, I like dart frogs...

Junkyard said:
Ben, you seem really defensive now.
Click to expand...
You are right! I dont know what I was thinking. For some reason I took a defensive stance for no reason. I am sorry!

Junkyard said:
Did you drop your collection to get into ball pythons
Click to expand...
This time I guess I will stick with the subject. I sold most of my dart frogs to get into balls. I had some very nice stuff, but I was really looking for something that didnt take so much time. Dart frogs take so much time and such expensive setups... while ball pythons take more space, but a simple enclosure and heating. Feed a ball once a week, one rat. Dart frogs you have to make fruit fly cultures, and feed really every day. I am not really trying to compare darts to ball pythons, just the time required. I will always keep a few here and there and never give them up.
 
Thank you William, I think you did a good job of explaining yourself. I can understand the amount of work involved with the frogs. I too have had a couple other reptiles, but snakes have always been my thing. You are young and have a great opportunity to find your niche, I went through a few other snakes to realize I love boids, so that is my main project. I personally think there is more to them than anyone will ever realize.

I will say thank you for not completely dropping the frogs, when your snakes breed out you can then afford to have a HUGE vivarium set up in your home for those frogs you love. Just for you!
 
I have had ball python for over 10 years (unfortunately male). The temperment was perfect etc... Everyone wants to get the expensive morphs which is fine but I personally am not going to risk my house etc... on them. I first have to build the networking and connections which to me are far more important. Like many have said you see many people selling these morph with no credibility. I hate to see how many people end up sinking because they threw their lot into ball pythons and gambled everything on them without dedicating the time. I for one am content on getting what I can afford and don't really feel like I am missing the gold rush. Right now I will work on building up females and refining some reduced banded and possibly granites. I also have some normal females that have very black colors and nice patterns. To be honest by the time I can afford some of these morphs I'll be happy because when I produce them it will be in a range that I think will be easier to move and I don't have to find some one to purchase a 35000 dollar snake. Not to say it wouldn't be nice to sell one for that I just would feel bad knowing someone is dropping a house mortgage, loan etc... and like has been mentioned several times nothing is guaranteed.
 
I did fail to mention that had I known 10 years that there were lots of geeks like me obsessed with reptiles I would probably be much farther. I wish I had known and I do think there are a lot more people out there that own a reptile from a pet shop and don't really know that there is a whole culture of reptile enthusiasts. Lets keep educating them.
 
Back
Top