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SPAM - North Florida Zoological

Re: Re: North Florida Zoological

wilomn said:
I did VERY little business with any breeders last year and off the top of my head I don't think any of the ones I did do business with would sell/give my email address to someone else.

Who is this breeder that you got my email address from? If he gave you mine it's only fair for you to tell me who he/she is in return.

Wes Pollock

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. As you can see I have some reservations or doubts about what you say your sources were. Please clarify where you got my email address from.
 
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. As you can see I have some reservations or doubts about what you say your sources were. Please clarify where you got my email address from.

I would like to second this request. I would also like to know this breeder friend is. I can't think of anyone I have purchased anything from, who would have sold or gave my email address to someone else for the purpose of solicitation via email.
 
Until/unless the "scum" who gave out such email addresses is identified, I guess that North Florida Zoological will stand along on this one. If they don't name their source to back up their claim, then they are "bad guys"... if they do name their source, they are vindicated, and the REAL bad guys are the ones selling (or giving away, or trading for goods and services) the email addresses of people in the herp industry. It's jut one of those nasties that is perpetrated in the e-world... spam... Like the people selling "mort.gages" think I would use unholy scum like that with my most sensitive information. Bleah!
 
I seriously doubt either of those guys are going to come back here to tell us who the "got our email addresses from".

We have apologized for the mistakes and this will be the last time we post about this.

I know everyone else is thinking it, so I'll just say it. More than likely, they went out to various classifieds and discussion forums, and started collecting email addresses to form a list of their "target audience". Sure makes sense to me.

But still - I overreacted, and have an attitude problem. And everyone else here hates SPAM too.
 
Geez....I hate spam too but GET OVER IT PEOPLE! It's not like they gave you all the finger and just kept hitting SEND. They apologized, they see the problem, and they have said they are working to correct it.

Everybody is acting like these folks ran a car through your house, stole your animals, and kicked the dog on the way out the door!

It takes ONE CLICK on a mouse button to delete it unread....wait let me time it.......about 1 tenth of a second.

C'mon now folks, the guys that need the attention are the ones shipping unhealthy animals or ripping us off when we make a purchase, not the guy that's trying to build an honest business within our community but may have been a bit misguided in trying to get our attention\business.

TC
 
Tom,

(playing devil's advocate here)

It does indeed take one tenth of a second to delete a spam email. It also takes no time at all to receive 200 in your mailbox.

Once someone has sold your address, then that number begins to increase, sometimes exponentially. Even with spam filtering software you cannot block all of it. And telling people to just change their address is pointless sometimes, as in the case of work related addresses.

One email doesn't seem to be too much at all. But combine that with the sometimes hundreds or thousands some people receive in a day from "users unknown", and the frustration level climbs.

Then take that frustration with not being able to stop a flood of spam, and make one of the senders of just one of those emails visible to the public.

They can't turn their ire on the others, but now one person is there to take the brunt. They may not even be the least ethical, because the real scum are very, very good at covering their tracks.

In this case it appears that a company was venturing into a method of marketing unfamiliar to them, but didn't take the steps necessary to abide by the laws governing that method, or prevent alienation of the target audience.

And for that they got blasted.

I don't see this having any permanent detrimental effect on the company. They've already said they're reviewing the practice to make it more palatable, and that's exactly the reaction people wanted when they vented their frustration in the first place.

The issue where someone else may have shared or sold their contact information without consent is another matter altogether. It's not unreasonable to want to know who, if anyone, is distributing their contact information to other companies.
 
Re: North Florida Zoological

marnold34 said:
My name is Mickey Arnold. My partner (Mike Welker) and I own North Florida Zoological in Gainesville, Fl. We are the ones that sent out the e-mails. We got the list from another breeder and we have sent several e-mails with our price lists on it and had many positive responses. We have had several people ask to be removed, which we promptly did. What we didn't realize was that several names were on there multiple times as well as several people have multiple e-mail addresses. We sincerely apologize to everyone for the mistake/s. We were trying to thin that (e-mail) list down although we are considering not doing any business that way at all. Although a lot of people do by animals that way, we do understand how frustrating SPAM can be and we will work to eliminate this problem.

Thank you, Mickey Arnold

In the quote above mickey states that he got my address from another breeder. I don't think, I may be wrong, that any breeder I did business with this past year, as there were very few of them, would give/sell my email address to another business.

If one of them did I want to know who did it.

It's as plain and simple as this. If mickey had simply said "we got a list and you were on it so we sent you some spam, our bad we'll take you off the list as of now" then this would be over.

However, he DID NOT say that. I think he may be lying to me/us and I don't appreciate it. If someone I did business with thinks it's acceptable to sell/give away my contact information I want to know so I can cease doing business with that person. If there was no one who gave mickey that info and he harvested it himself I'd like to know that as well so I can relax about who I do business with.

Tom, suppose I had made a major purchase from you last year and was going to make another with you this year but before I did I got spammed a couple of times by someone who said he got my email address from a breeder. Would you want me, or anyone else for that matter, to suspect you would stoop so low as to sell/give away your customers contact info?

In the big picture it's really not a big deal. I'd still like to know the truth though. I don't think I've heard that truth as yet.

Wes Pollock
 
No Wes, I wouldn't.......I just don't think that these guys deserve the hammering they are getting no matter HOW they got the addy's.

I just can't see the point in spending so much time complaining about something that will not EVER go away completely when the point in complaining in the first place was because of the time it takes to delete the spam!

Cruciform.....I could be completely wrong here, but can't you block any addy you want to on your end? This would mean that once you get one and add the name to the "blocker" file, their e-mails would no longer get through? Also, my sarcastic side says, you could have deleted approximately 6 months of spam in the time it took you to type your post! :)

I just think it may be easier to correct the problem on your end by blocking the offending parties and delete the few that get through than it is to complain until they stop.

I could be wrong.....I've been wrong before....I'll be wrong again!

TC
 
I agree with WES

However, he DID NOT say that. I think he may be lying to me/us and I don't appreciate it. If someone I did business with thinks it's acceptable to sell/give away my contact information I want to know so I can cease doing business with that person. If there was no one who gave mickey that info and he harvested it himself I'd like to know that as well so I can relax about who I do business with.

I agree with this above statement. I think they created it themselves.

I just don't think that these guys deserve the hammering they are getting no matter HOW they got the addy's.

I think they do deserve the critical response people have made. It's illegal to send spam and EVERYONE knows it. They are just playing dumb if they don't. I think they created the list, illegally emailed people trying to create buisness in an illegal manner and got more then they bargained for it.



Cruciform.....I could be completely wrong here, but can't you block any addy you want to on your end? This would mean that once you get one and add the name to the "blocker" file, their e-mails would no longer get through?

Yes, you can. I'm sure those who have been the unwanting receivers of this spam already have or they should. I think the business decision to conduct a spam campaign of selling reptiles was BAD business and shows a lack of maturity in business terms because it has done more damage then good to them.

I'm sure they will get over it and so will everyone else.
 
Tom and Sputnik,

I'm a mail server administrator. We use blackhole lists for known spammers as well as Bayesian filtering to eliminate spam based on known wordlists.

Our antiviral software blocks 18,000+ viruses from spoofed email addresses every day. The number of spam messages that filtering blocks dwarfs that. This is for a company of only 50 people.

If only 1% of all spam makes it through the filters, that is still an unacceptable amount of garbage filling peoples inboxes.

There are many ways of bypassing filters, despite what you think. Email spoofing, the method of disguising the origin of an email is easily done at any server that does not have the proper safeguards in place. There are literally hundreds of thousands of these servers worldwide. In Asia and Russia, where there are no measures to regulate spam in place, some companies farm out servers to spammers for a fee. One of these servers can serve out over 80 million spam messages in a single day.

For a small company that pays for metered bandwidth, spam email can account for several gigabytes transferred each month. Whether you filter it or not at the server, you still have to receive it first, and that's another expense.

In the case of North Florida Zoological, there was no attempt to mask who they were, so if someone desired they could filter or block them out.

The typical spam email that you receive is distributed by a third party, and directs you to purchase though an unidentifiable website, phone number, or by responding to a drop-box email on an anonymous provider. You may receive the identical email 30 times, and it will appear to come from a different source every time. If you block by the sender, it doesn't matter. Chances are that the sender was randomly generated by a script. Blocking them won't stop the next one, as the sender will just be another generated name. Blocking the IP is pointless as well, when a typical server is only used for a day or two before they hop to another server with a different IP.

Bayesian filtering, which creates word lists based on messages you mark as junk, worked for a time but spammers are finding their way around that as well. If you've received any spam lately with a hundred or so random words attached to the bottom of it, that's intended to create "white noise", diluting the effectiveness or a word based filter.

The most insidious and evil aspect of spamming is the newer worms which have spread across millions of machines worldwide. They install relay servers on users machines without their knowledge. Click on an attachment and suddenly you're infected, and sending out 100,000 emails a day from your cable connection, and don't even know it. Some of those worms not only turn your machine into a spam relay, but steal form information from websites and files from your hard drive. There have been several suspected links to organized crime sponsoring the creation of some of these worms. Identity theft is skyrocketing, and it's just getting easier as people click on any email that comes in. Use Outlook 2000 or Outlook Express? Just clicking on an email to delete it in some cases can infect you, due to security holes in the mail client.

And this is all just the tip of the iceberg. So, as you may start to realize, spam is more than just a minor annoyance for many people. It's an intrusion into their daily work and time, and sometimes affects their personal lives directly.

And people who are offended that their email addresses are possibly being distributed without their consent have a right to be pissed. The shouldn't HAVE to sit there deleting messages every day just because they have an address. Would you like to have your phone ringing every 30 seconds all day long?
 
And as Sputnik said, people will probably get over it, at least once they know how their addresses ended up on the mailing list.

I'm not judging NFZ, as many companies have made the same mistake. Just pointing out *why* people take offense to being put on mailing lists without consent.
 
List of names

I realize we said we would not post again on this subject but I wanted to clear a couple of things up. The e-mail list was not shared with anyone else from our end. We never tried to hide who we were. Our name, address, phone#, and e-mail address was attached to the e-mails. We were not doing anything at any point with bad intentions. We were trying to drum up business and made an error in judgement. The e-mail list has been deleted and will not be used by us ever again. Suggestions were made that we were "bad guys". We are not. We made a mistake, apologized and corrected the problem. The other issue is how the list came to be. There are actually 3 parts to the list which totaled about 1200 or so names. The first part was a list of breeders, wholesalers, and retail shops that we have sold to or bought from in the past. The second part was a list that a friend (breeder/collector) that contained mostly wholesalers and importers and a few private collectors (none of which contained any of the names from the complaints we have gotten). The third part of the list (the list of complaints are on this one) came from a list of names from another series of e-mails (of which we were on the list) from a field collector I believe. I don't recall which e-mail it was. We recieve e-mails from dozens of field collectors and importers and I'm just not sure which list we got them from. I do know that whomever it was not someone we have ever done business with and I have no idea how our e-mail got on their list.

I did not go into detail about the list before because, mistakenly, I didn't feel like that part of it was that big of a deal. We have made sales from that e-mail (SPAM) but do realize that a lot of people do not like it and as I said already we will not be doing it in the future.

thanks,
Mickey Arnold
North Florida Zoological
 
The first part was a list of breeders, wholesalers, and retail shops that we have sold to or bought from in the past.

I most certainly do not fall into that category. I'd never heard of you guys before I got an email with your price list.

The second part was a list that a friend (breeder/collector) that contained mostly wholesalers and importers and a few private collectors (none of which contained any of the names from the complaints we have gotten).

Obviously, I wasn't on this list either. As I complained.

The third part of the list (the list of complaints are on this one) came from a list of names from another series of e-mails (of which we were on the list) from a field collector I believe.

I've purchased from one field collector. And it was after your first price list was sent out. But I was in contact with him BEFORE your price list was sent out.


In any event, I personally appreciate you taking the time to respond to our requests (although specific names would be wonderful), and I appreciate your decision to no longer do business via SPAM.
 
I think the decision made to not do business via spam is a great one.

I also believe that, like someone else pointed out, North Florida Zoological got a LOT of the flack that people have been storing up un-vented about spammers in general. While the "outcry" was quite verbal, a lot of it was generally aimed at spammers without specific ones being necessarily the target.

The label of "bad guy" comes from the inability to see wrong with this method and continue to use it. Discontinuing the use of SPAM is a great decision and in the long run will result in a good mark rather than a bad mark. We all make errors, and some of them are big ones. Just deal with the errors in the most professional way possible, change your ways, and you are going to demonstrate you are in reality a "good guy". That's what it takes and what I like about this board. There are those perpetual bad guys who will never change, those who learn and grow and get better, and those who either have good guy posts, or misguided bad guy posts that are able to demonstrate that all is well.

Sure glad *I* didn't get the spam though, I have too much to contend with trying to quit smoking, grow my penis longer, and then get it to work with viagra/cialis, whilst perusing Betty-Jo's Teen homepage advertisements all the while filling out a mort.gage application to worry about reptile spam as well.
 
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