Spectacular Radio Show on Keeper's Rights & Fights

[WebSlave]

I keep on hearing this word "compromise" bantered about, and in the context I am hearing it, I wonder if everyone really knows the meaning of the word.

1. a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.
2. the result of such a settlement.
3. something intermediate between different things: The split-level is a compromise between a ranch house and a multistoried house.
4. an endangering, especially of reputation; exposure to danger, suspicion, etc.: a compromise of one's integrity.

*emphasis added

Well, this sounds reasonable to me, IF it is legitimate compromise we are talking about... In other words, the two parties at conflict each GIVE a little in order to GET a little. From what I have seen, the government at any level does not understand the concept of compromise at all. Their concept is more along the lines of, "We want to take it all, but we will settle for taking half. For now." Sorry, but that is NOT compromise, that is CONCESSION. In other words, to accept defeat, even if it is for less than you were threatened with initially.

If the government is willing to truly compromise, then fine. But if the government merely will accept your concession, then not so fine. With a concession, you STILL lost something without gaining anything in return. And in that manner will our rights be taken away from us completely over time.

 

[mbm6]

What are the regulations for?

The governement should not regulate for the sake of regulation. There simply is no reason in Ohio to regulate exotics. We don't have injuries or deaths that we need to protect the public from. Where are the statisics? The fact that HSUS want regulations is no reason to have regulations.

Compromise with HSUS? They don't care about cage size that don't want anyone to keep any animals.

 

[mbm6]

The latest propasal for Ohio would make All Boas,Pythons and venomous illegal, persons would have until January 1, 2014 to get rid of their aniamls either by euthanizing or selling them to a person in a state that allows them.

This includes all Ball Pythons, Rosy Boas, Sand Boas, and of course the deadly Childrens Pythons.

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

Are you talking to me, or the other guy? Because I'm totally for logical compromises.

I stated before; I DO agree with his message. However, was he the right person to parade around on a popular radio show? No... and that was the original problem myself and others have had.

QUOTE]

If your 24 too, I'm sorry for the confusion.
But I agree with your statement. If the community (who is all against AR groups and bans) can be this critical of him, how do you think it's going to go down when AR groups go on the attack against Wilkins? Yes, reputation and background has everything to do with who represents us. Just look at the burning coals Republican candidates for presidency go through from their own party. They do that because they know the other guys will be ten times as ruthless when trying to discredit and defeat their guy. The Wilkins scenario is no different. AR has a lot of money and friends to tear at him. Hell, as soon as he mentioned associating with the Kicks I became suspicious of his character and reputation. If he will come to the defense of scammers like them over animal welfare conditions at their store then I can see the claims against his conditions holding weight. Jumpin jiminy christmas, nearly everyone knows not to deal with the Kicks. Wonder if he will defend High End Herps when Dave gets locked up....again.

Let's put it this way; I liked hearing what he said. I liked his approach. Very ballsy and straight to the point. I wanted to hear someone say things like that. Key word; I wanted to hear that. First flag though is when someone tells you everything you want to hear, not the ugly truth. I would rather someone piss me off with the truth than appease me with lies or exaggerations. But that's just me; litening for what I need to hear, not what I want to.
Fire Skip Snow? Fire Rodda and Reed from USGS? If it was so easily done then why hasn't it been attempted? Why has his organization been around since 2003 and this is the first we heard of it? Where has he been for at least the past 4 years? His answers to proposed legislation bring up more questions like these.
I will give him benefit of the doubt and take his word that he has beat back anti-exotic legislation in Ohio all by his lonesome self. But that's his state. What is he doing to help VA, SC, GA WI and all other states that are currently targeted? Where was he and his buddy Keszey when Florida took ahit. To quote Wilkins, "I'm not worried in [regards to exotic bans]. The other 49 states should be shaking in their boots."
Sounds like Terry is going to take care of Terry. If you want him to look out for you, consider moving to Ohio or even to his neighborhood and let me know how that works out for ya.

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

Also, if we wnat o do the NRA comparison; they had their fights too. But is anyone familiar with 7 day waiting periods. Bill of Rights says we have the RIGHT to own firearms. Government still says you cannot have a cannon, artillery or RPGs. If you do have a firearm you must register it in your name.
We do not have a right to keep animals. It is a privilege like driving. As automobile use grew, new laws like car insurance came about. Our industry/hobby/comunity has grown fast in the past 10-15 years and with fast, expansive growth comes growing pains.
And no one is compromising with HSUS other than agriculture groups threatened with ballot initiatives and other tactics (clean and under handed) by AR groups. They "want to eliminate exotic animal ownership. The state wants to control it". That's what Pacelle said word for word. Regulating and setting standards for best managemnet practices is not their idea of compromise. They want an end. They want us to have no input on any regulations drafted. They don't wnat a seat at the discussion table, they want to smash it.
So if your thinking that USARK is sitting down with HSUS to hammer out a compromise between the two....I have some beach front proerty in Nevada I'll sell ya. I'll even throw in a ball python het for legs.

 

[mbm6]

[QUOTE

QUOTE]

If your 24 too, I'm sorry for the confusion.
But I agree with your statement. If the community (who is all against AR groups and bans) can be this critical of him, how do you think it's going to go down when AR groups go on the attack against Wilkins? Yes, reputation and background has everything to do with who represents us. Just look at the burning coals Republican candidates for presidency go through from their own party. They do that because they know the other guys will be ten times as ruthless when trying to discredit and defeat their guy. The Wilkins scenario is no different. AR has a lot of money and friends to tear at him. Hell, as soon as he mentioned associating with the Kicks I became suspicious of his character and reputation. If he will come to the defense of scammers like them over animal welfare conditions at their store then I can see the claims against his conditions holding weight. Jumpin jiminy christmas, nearly everyone knows not to deal with the Kicks. Wonder if he will defend High End Herps when Dave gets locked up....again.
[/QUOTE]

Do you really think this is about cage sizes and the condition animals are kept? These groups don't want anyone owning any animals.

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

We are not trying to work with HSUS.
*SLAMS HEAD ON DESK*
We are trying to work with politicians/bureaucrats. They can be as wary of HSUS as us.
Have you ever debated or engaged an HSUS supporter or employee? They are a fickle bunch. They grasp at straws to come up with reasons to ban reptiles.
1ST- Public safety. We throw out that dogs and horses kill more every year. They will say that's because more people have dogs than reptiles. You put the basic anatomical make up of a dog versus a snake and ask them which is more dangerous. An animal with no legs that you can walk away from and teeth no longer than a 1/2 inch on the biggest of constrictors versus one with bigger teeth, four legs and can out run you. That tends to shut them up. But of course they move on too.....
2- Invasive issues. While only 3 counties in the southern tip of one state have apython problem they still spout tripe using the USGS report. They know as well as we do that that feral cats pose a higher threat to native fauna. They will tell you HSUS supports Trap, Neuter and Release Programs to address the problem of feral cats and pint out there is no TNP for feral pythons. To which I usually reply "the cats and pythons aren't MATING with native wildflife, they are eating them". I also bring up the permitted python hunts. End of that so we get to....
3- They bring up zoonotic diseases reptile scarry. Yes..the one; salmonella. I supply them with a source called the Center for Disease Control (CDC) and it states that salmonella is the only illness you can get from reptiles. Meanwhile; dogs can carry 16 seperate illnesses including salmonella.
4- "What belongs in the wild should stay in the wild". That's what they say. And I tell them I agree. That's why we have advocated captive bred over imports for God knows how long. I remember it back in the late 90s when I first strated attending local herp shows. I also remind them how critical and cynical they get when someone opposing them says "God put animals here and gave us domain over them to use" and how it reminds me so much of their "wild should stay wild" statements. No point in bringing up habitat loss and endangerement. They already see it as better extinct than in captivity.
5- The welfare of the animal. Funny how it can go extinct one minute and the next they are so concerned with how it's treated, but this is the Hypocrite Society of the US. This is where it gets wierd because you can see the levels of extremism within the ranks. I have some that told me the NC law (as is) was something they could settle for. Obviously the least extreme that were suckered in thought that way. They just want to see something in place that addresses the issue. No regulation is what drew them to Ohio in the first place. Then you have the extremists who never question Pacelle, even over saying Vick would be a good dog owner. Only an outright ban will appease them. So a law written by keeper for keeper will really piss in their cornflakes.


Again, we are not negotiating with AR groups. They don't negotiate they threatened. Which is one reason their hundreds of millions they attain every year gets little done for the amounts they pour into it.
We have to convince and negotiate with the politicians. They are not sitting around just thinking of freedoms they can strip from their constituents. They certainly are not all AR friendly either. HSUS may write up a draft for a law they want enacted; but the legislators are the ones who decide to go with or against it. They are the ones that need to be educated and have their concerns addressed. If making it a law to have a lock on a hot snake gets them to relax, back off and blocks attempts by AR to eliminate ownership then I suggest to venomous keepers to get another key ring. It already makes sense to have something like that secure anyway.
It's not all about regulating orselves. It's about beating AR groups to the punch while softening the blow to ourselves. Sort of like a blocking move in chess. What's the harm in saying we will use secure enclosure and safety protocols for certain reptiles and reassuring legislators being hounded by AR to ban said animals?
If one likes using bricks and books to secure their cages, I can see why fighting against caging standards is their soapbox.

 

[noahboy]

24 years old

For the record: sally-dog is the one who is 24 years old. I passed that milestone decades ago.

"The intentional or negligent exposure of other human beings or the environment to unsafe contact with reptiles that are venomous, with large constricting snakes, or with crocodilians being potentially injurious and detrimental to public health, safety and welfare, and the environment, the indulgence in and inducement to such exposure is hereby declared to be a public nuisance and a criminal offense, to be abated and punished as provided in this Article."

Any guesses as to who you think wrote this proposed regulation?????

Ding, ding, ding. The answer is USARK!!!!! They also have a regulation prohibiting the handling of reptiles or suggesting or inducing others to handle.

That's right, your friends protecting our right to ... wait. I guess for sally-dog doing her many reptile shows would now put her into the criminal category by intentionally having folks handle a Burmese python, or even a rosy boa (by Ohio's proposed definition). I can already hear her saying, "But I only have leopard geckos and corn snakes." And how long do you think it would really take to add animals to this list? (Hopefully you don't believe the list ends here.) Quicker than it takes to type this up. We've already seen this here in Ohio with our natives. Oh yeah, lest I forget to mention, without ANY legislative oversight.

Better yet, substitute just about anything "potentially dangerous" where a reptile is mentioned. You got it. This would make it a criminal offense for a car dealership to allow you test drive a car before you buy it. Don't let your friend use your new golf club. 4-H horse riding summer camp is out. Fathers, don't give your kid the bat to play Little League. This list could get very long very quickly. And really, doesn't it sound ridiculous now?

And to Taking up Serpents; here in Ohio we do not have a 7-day waiting period to buy a firearm. We also do not have gun registration. Also, in the good 'ole USA we are able to legally buy and own ordinance (cannons as you call them). Machine guns and suppressors are legal too!! Oh my!!! That is Federal law (National Firearms Act of 1934). Unless, of course, if locally you have allowed your Constitutionally guaranteed rights to be taken away. Or if you are a felon...hmmm. Get your facts straight (read this as do your homework) before you spread more misinformation.

It's HSUS that states Ohio has the least restrictive exotic laws on the books. I prefer to view Ohio as the state with the best freedoms in the country (obviously on more issues than just exotics). As mentioned before I will continue to keep on fighting for my freedoms (and rights---another homework lesson to the uneducated).

 

[sally-dog]

At this point, I'm just laughing.
Oh, and if you looked so far as to know my age, you'd see that my name is Rachel. And you'd use it.
I said NOTHING about donating to USARK in posts. Go read it.
Keep grasping for straws, sir, because, seriously, I have work to do. We all do.
Be safe.

 

[sally-dog]

Oh and I own a 12ft retic and several large boa constrictors. Nice try!

Again, have a nice day!

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

noahboy- Are you telling me you can go this weekend and buy an mini gun to attach to your hummer? Well, only in Ohio that is. Okay. How much can you get me an m-4 or rpg for? What's a 40mm run up there? Why need gun stores if you have no registration? Why not just buy all of your guns off of the streets?
You are also trying to say that using a snake to threaten or intimidate someone should not be a crime and does nothing to harm a unwilling individual, the animal and the reptile keeping community? I like that in there as it is in there for boneheads who want to do stupid stuff that gets on local news channels in bad ways. But you don't have a problem with that do ya?
Maybe you partake in intimidating people with reptiles to watch 'em squirm. Maybe you have plenty of bricks on your aquariums and don't want to change your 'secure caging'?
Again, show me where you have the RIGHT to keep reptiles first. It's a privilege. Like driving a a car. Or let me guess....you don't have to have car insurance in Ohio right? Because that would force you to buy a product and that is unconstitutional and you know your rights.
You also want to disavow the fact these animals can pose bodily harm. Can you get a 1/2 grown burm off by yourself if it misses at feeding time? Just because they do not hurt as many people as dogs doesn't make them corn snakes.Tell me to do research while I do my homework? I haven't been in school for decades.
BTW- My research has found you do have to have a permit to carry a handgun. Looks like they're already started takin your rights in between posts. Better get them militia boys, cause by your logic if you have to have a permit to carry concealed; they're gonna ban all guns next week!
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_oh.htm

 

[sally-dog]

noahboy- Are you telling me you can go this weekend and buy an mini gun to attach to your hummer? Well, only in Ohio that is. Okay. How much can you get me an m-4 or rpg for? What's a 40mm run up there? Why need gun stores if you have no registration? Why not just buy all of your guns off of the streets?
You are also trying to say that using a snake to threaten or intimidate someone should not be a crime and does nothing to harm a unwilling individual, the animal and the reptile keeping community? I like that in there as it is in there for boneheads who want to do stupid stuff that gets on local news channels in bad ways. But you don't have a problem with that do ya?
Maybe you partake in intimidating people with reptiles to watch 'em squirm. Maybe you have plenty of bricks on your aquariums and don't want to change your 'secure caging'?
Again, show me where you have the RIGHT to keep reptiles first. It's a privilege. Like driving a a car. Or let me guess....you don't have to have car insurance in Ohio right? Because that would force you to buy a product and that is unconstitutional and you know your rights.
You also want to disavow the fact these animals can pose bodily harm. Can you get a 1/2 grown burm off by yourself if it misses at feeding time? Just because they do not hurt as many people as dogs doesn't make them corn snakes.Tell me to do research while I do my homework? I haven't been in school for decades.
BTW- My research has found you do have to have a permit to carry a handgun. Looks like they're already started takin your rights in between posts. Better get them militia boys, cause by your logic if you have to have a permit to carry concealed; they're gonna ban all guns next week!
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_oh.htm

Ignore it.
If he cares so much about his friends good reputation, he should get on the BOI and start looking at all the inquiry threads about Terry's shop. There are some pretty awful things being said about it. They came pretty late to the party, some of those threads are years old, with new ones as early as this year.

I think I'm pretty much done here. I said what I needed to say, or felt I needed to, and look! I even stirred up a fan!
I have faith in other responsible keepers of like mindset. I think we all know where to draw the line, more or less. We just need to get in there and do it.

 

[WebSlave]

And to Taking up Serpents; here in Ohio we do not have a 7-day waiting period to buy a firearm. We also do not have gun registration. Also, in the good 'ole USA we are able to legally buy and own ordinance (cannons as you call them). Machine guns and suppressors are legal too!! Oh my!!! That is Federal law (National Firearms Act of 1934). Unless, of course, if locally you have allowed your Constitutionally guaranteed rights to be taken away. Or if you are a felon...hmmm. Get your facts straight (read this as do your homework) before you spread more misinformation.

Sorry, but this is rather misleading. It is not anywhere near as easy as you imply..

Q: What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?ATF Form 4 (5320.4) must be completed, in duplicate. The transferor first completes the face of the form. The transferee completes the transferee’s certification on the reverse of the form and must have the “Law Enforcement Certification” completed by the chief law enforcement officer.

The transferee is to place, on each copy of the form, a 2-inch by 2-inch photograph of the transferee taken within the past year (proofs, group photographs or photocopies are unacceptable). The transferee’s address must be a street address, not a post office box. If there is no street address, specific directions to the residence must be included.

If State or local law requires a permit or license to purchase, possess, or receive NFA firearms, a copy of the transferee’s permit or license must accompany the application. A check or money order for $200 ($5 for transfer of “any other weapon”) shall be made payable to ATF by the transferor. All signatures on both copies must be in ink.

Fingerprints also must be submitted on FBI Form FD-258, in duplicate. Fingerprints must be taken by a person qualified to do so, and must be clear and classifiable. If wear or damage to the fingertips do not allow clear prints, and if the prints are taken by a law enforcement official, a statement on his or her official letterhead giving the reason why good prints are unobtainable should accompany the fingerprints.

Forward the completed application and appropriate tax payment to the Bureau of ATF, National Firearms Act Branch, P.O. Box 530298, Atlanta, GA 30353-0298.

Transfer of the NFA firearm may be made only upon approval of the ATF Form 4 by the NFA Branch. If the application is approved, the original of the form with the cancelled stamp affixed showing approval will be returned to the applicant. If the tax application is denied, the tax will be refunded.

Upon approval of the ATF Form 4, the transferor should transfer the firearm as soon as possible, since the firearm is now registered to the transferee.

[26 U.S.C. 5812, 27 CFR 479.84-86]

 

[noahboy]

You are comparing apples and oranges. NFA weaponry (machine guns, suppressors, DD, ordinance, etc.) are class III and of course need registered via a form 4 as Rich has provided. BTW the wait time for a form 4 is around 6 months right now. This registration also requires you to give up your RIGHT to search. Registration of your herps may also require you to give up your RIGHT to search. This is the registration REQUIREMENT (the law) for native herps already in place in Ohio. You will give up your RIGHT to search. ODNR can come into your property at any time without cause, without warrant just because you choose to keep a native herp.

Once gain Taking up Serpents is twisting words around to mislead folks. The permit is for CONCEAL carry. Omitting just one word has totally changed the entire meaning. In Ohio you DO NOT need a permit to purchase a handgun. You DO NOT need to wait 7 days. There is the federal insta-check system in place. Just to make sure you are not a felon and the like. It's OK to be wrong, just don't lie to try to get your own way.

If you look at just about any issue, registration schemes eventually lead to confiscations. Prohibitions haven't worked either. Please study the history of these measures. The eventual outcome is not what any of us want.

 

[mbm6]

noahboy- Are you telling me you can go this weekend and buy an mini gun to attach to your hummer? Well, only in Ohio that is. Okay. How much can you get me an m-4 or rpg for? What's a 40mm run up there? Why need gun stores if you have no registration? Why not just buy all of your guns off of the streets?
You are also trying to say that using a snake to threaten or intimidate someone should not be a crime and does nothing to harm a unwilling individual, the animal and the reptile keeping community? I like that in there as it is in there for boneheads who want to do stupid stuff that gets on local news channels in bad ways. But you don't have a problem with that do ya?
Maybe you partake in intimidating people with reptiles to watch 'em squirm. Maybe you have plenty of bricks on your aquariums and don't want to change your 'secure caging'?
Again, show me where you have the RIGHT to keep reptiles first. It's a privilege. Like driving a a car. Or let me guess....you don't have to have car insurance in Ohio right? Because that would force you to buy a product and that is unconstitutional and you know your rights.
You also want to disavow the fact these animals can pose bodily harm. Can you get a 1/2 grown burm off by yourself if it misses at feeding time? Just because they do not hurt as many people as dogs doesn't make them corn snakes.Tell me to do research while I do my homework? I haven't been in school for decades.
BTW- My research has found you do have to have a permit to carry a handgun. Looks like they're already started takin your rights in between posts. Better get them militia boys, cause by your logic if you have to have a permit to carry concealed; they're gonna ban all guns next week!
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_oh.htm

1. Yes I think I could get a 1/2 grown Burmese off me
2. How did it happen to begin with? No permit system is going to protect someone from there self.

Do we need laws to protect you from yourself? A burmese python is not a danger to humans. You were at a far higher risk driving over to pick up the food for him. There are far more unregulated dangers that occur daily far more woresome than someones Burmese Python

I haven't heard about anyone going to rob the corner liquer store using a python.

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

I'm not going to go back and forth over the gun laws in this nation. You want to say you can get anything in the US without hassle and when shown otherwise it turns to "oh, just my state". You say apples and oranges, I say nit picking. My whole point with the analogy was that we have a right to bare arms, not reptiles. If that right to bare can be regulated, our privileges (keeping and driving) most definitely can. Anyway......

In all no regulations is what put Ohio in the cross-hairs of AR groups. That is why they targeted the keepers in Ohio. The HSUS was making a move on pork farmers and egg producers as well. Pacelle said "we want to eliminate exotic animal ownership. The state wants to control it". Words for words from a Canton paper after Mazzola but before Thompson died. They have millions and Pacelle is a registered lobbyist with dozens of lawyers backing him. Do you really think that just saying no to a ban and threatening Ohio legislators that you will have them fired will make it go away? That whole "I pay your salary" argument huh? I hear of people using that on cops. Doesn't go to well. It's a lot of risk to say you want no rules or laws so you can keep venomous with no bite protocol and you will never have to put a lock/latch on an enclosure?
This whole attitude is what put the focus on Ohio's exotic laws. You still want to continue a broken process that lead to AR on your doorstep? Why not fresh tactics?
If you wnat all or nothing chances are you will get it. But not the way you want.

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

Yes there are more dangerous things than big snakes or hots. That's a no brainer. But the focus is on those animals. AR doesn't care about facts. To think dropping all the facts in our favor in front of them will slow them down is naive. They will lie and sensationalism and media hype are in their favor. They still try to use the USGS report after being debunked by 11 independent studies. The are irrational. You can't reason or negotiate with it. And no one is on our side, contrary to what others have said.
I have advocated the NC model and there is no permit, chipping or registration or licenses. If putting that in place can stop a ban or future bans then I am all for it. It's common sense practices. Keep hots in locking/latching enclosures and have a list of species kept and what their anti-venom is visible in the room so if EMS finds you face down, you have a chance. If that is too much to ask for someone to keep hots then they shouldn't have them to begin with.
Basically, if an AR group like Born Free comes back to NC we have a new reptile law in place. There's no reason for lawmakers to listen to them in regards to reptile law. They also know the ARK as the 'go-to guys' for herp law and information.
This is all state law of course. Like Ohio county and city ordinances can ban animals. There are places in Ohio that do, it's just not statewide. Isn't it Cincinnati that has a large constrictor ban? What was the plan to fight that one? How did that ever happen if Ohio is gung-ho anti-compromise and anti-regulation? Did you tell the mayor you'll fire him?

 

[WebSlave]

You are comparing apples and oranges. NFA weaponry (machine guns, suppressors, DD, ordinance, etc.) are class III and of course need registered via a form 4 as Rich has provided. BTW the wait time for a form 4 is around 6 months right now. This registration also requires you to give up your RIGHT to search. Registration of your herps may also require you to give up your RIGHT to search. This is the registration REQUIREMENT (the law) for native herps already in place in Ohio. You will give up your RIGHT to search. ODNR can come into your property at any time without cause, without warrant just because you choose to keep a native herp.

Once gain Taking up Serpents is twisting words around to mislead folks. The permit is for CONCEAL carry. Omitting just one word has totally changed the entire meaning. In Ohio you DO NOT need a permit to purchase a handgun. You DO NOT need to wait 7 days. There is the federal insta-check system in place. Just to make sure you are not a felon and the like. It's OK to be wrong, just don't lie to try to get your own way.

If you look at just about any issue, registration schemes eventually lead to confiscations. Prohibitions haven't worked either. Please study the history of these measures. The eventual outcome is not what any of us want.

Well, the NICS check is your asking PERMISSION from the government to exercise a right clearly identified as being outside of the jurisdiction of the US government in the Bill of Rights attached as amendments to the US Constitution. If they can say NO and stop you from taking possession of a firearm, then that completely guts the Second Amendment in both word and intent.

And in my personal opinion, ANY law that has written into it a requirement that you MUST give up a basic Constitutionally guaranteed right in order to comply with that law, then that law is blatantly unconstitutional.

But obviously, the government is not concerned about obeying the Constitution, as there is absolutely NO penalty levied against them for violating it at every turn. If YOU are the victim of an unconstitutional law, YOU have to pay the attorney fees to prove that point. Whereas the members of Congress who penned, considered, and voted that law into being merely sic US federal attorneys on you and the case, paid for by YOUR taxes. It doesn't cost them a dime to try to defend their case that they were not violating OUR Constitutional rights with their efforts.

And for the record, a "right" that requires a permit, license, fee, or permission, is NOT a right at all.

 

[rodneynboalich]

Well, the NICS check is your asking PERMISSION from the government to exercise a right clearly identified as being outside of the jurisdiction of the US government in the Bill of Rights attached as amendments to the US Constitution. If they can say NO and stop you from taking possession of a firearm, then that completely guts the Second Amendment in both word and intent.

And in my personal opinion, ANY law that has written into it a requirement that you MUST give up a basic Constitutionally guaranteed right in order to comply with that law, then that law is blatantly unconstitutional.

But obviously, the government is not concerned about obeying the Constitution, as there is absolutely NO penalty levied against them for violating it at every turn. If YOU are the victim of an unconstitutional law, YOU have to pay the attorney fees to prove that point. Whereas the members of Congress who penned, considered, and voted that law into being merely sic US federal attorneys on you and the case, paid for by YOUR taxes. It doesn't cost them a dime to try to defend their case that they were not violating OUR Constitutional rights with their efforts.

And for the record, a "right" that requires a permit, license, fee, or permission, is NOT a right at all.

i agree with this and i was agitated when i heard crutchfield say that its a privilege to own these animals not a right. i think when you start talking about rights verses privileges ifs a fine line and how do you differentiate between the two,and to say privileges can be taken away, well so can rights. and also to what extent can either or should either be taken away. in society its almost like we have rights until the state wants to take them away and then our rights become privileges. i also think we mite need to adopt a set of categorical rights to understand this matter ( and im sure there already a set but i dont know of them).

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

Crutchfield was right though. No matter how agitated you get. Freedom of speech. Basic right, correct? When my speech threatens, harms or slanders you then that freedom is out the window and I am subject to police action and a trial. If I call you at 3am threatening you or put posters all over town saying lies about you or your business; you can nail me in court if I ma found guilty. So you have that right to speak your mind until it threatens the safety or lively hood of another.
It is a privilege to keep these animals. It is not a right. It is a freedom, a liberty, the pursuit of my happiness. But if a lawmaker or judge finds any of those things to be of risk to a 3rd party public, they can pull the plug. No one's rights, freedoms or privileges may trump the right to not live in fear or have their safety in jeopardy. Politicians see it that way. Politicians are the ones we want to know majority of us are responsible. HSUS doesn't care. Truth was never a factor for them. Idiology was. That is why it is best to show them we are responsible and step up to the challenge of self regulating and writing our own rules. We won't get everything we want every time. But the goal is to make it so our opponents get as little as possible campaigning against us. Maybe if more keepers treated it as a privilege and not an entitlement there would be more respect and responsibility. Again, I'm not for permits, licenses and registrations. I know they just make it near impossible to acquire them in most cases. That's how it used to be here.

No one is entitled to being able to own an animal by any federal document. Law makers want a solution to what the public outcry is over, if we don't give it to them you know who will and it results in black market animals who suffer and "one generation and out" for future keepers.