Bad Guy Steve at TheVeiledChameleon.com

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Unfortunately, based on their TOS on the site, you are only entitled to a replacement. They have a "No Cash refunds" policy. Hopefully they will go outside TOS and make an exception.

 

[Sirengarg]

Yes, I do see that. However I have seen legal cases within the state, where animals who are received dead or sick, such a clause can be overturned if the judge feels that the plaintiff has good cause to not want to trust the health of future animals. A lemon law for pets if you will. Usually seen mostly applied to the purchase of dogs, but has covered other animals such as cats and horses, so why not a snake?

 

[Wolfy-hound]

You didn't mention the date you recieved the animal.

I hope you get your refund, I wouldn't want to get an animal as a replacement, especially if they owe people for animals, you wouldn't know if it was their animal or one that hasn't been paid for!

sorry you had to go through all this. And sorry the poor snake has paid the price for their greed.

 

[Sirengarg]

I got her July 14th, sorry for not adding that.

 

[Sirengarg]

Latest correspondence:

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Attn: Karin - blood python
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 14:12:32 -0400

Hello Crystal,
I spoke with Steve regarding this matter. He said per our TOS we do not offer refunds but we do offer replacements. So I can replace this animal with a healthy one and make sure its feeding before it leaves to ship. I am talking with him again today and will continue to rub salt in the wound per say and ask about a refund for you. Im sorry I don’t have a better answer for you. I will get into contact with you later this afternoon.
Thank You Karin



-------


My Reply:

Did he have any answer for you as to why he completely ignored us? Like I said, if he replied back in a timely and professional manner, I would be more receptive to his TOS, however, he didn't even follow his OWN TOS by not contacting me back immediately over the course of several weeks. I don't understand how he can break his own TOS that states when a buyer has a problem they should contact you immediately, which I did, and his website states he would also contact us back to help or replace. I was very willing to exchange that first week, he just never bothered to contact me back. I don't know how he has a wound to rub salt into when I have a dead snake in my freezer. We are requesting a full refund for the total amount of $125.

 

[Omnomnami]

Wow. She apparently doesn't realize that her boyfriend/fiance/husband (what ever he is to her I don't feel like checking or even knowing) is an all over horrible person to do business with. I'm sure if she understood exactly how you felt she would be rubbing this in his face, not his so called "wound".

And like you said, he already hasn't honored his TOS on his end for the past several weeks so why should he "try" to honor it any further? How frustrating...learn how to run your business and how to follow YOUR OWN TOS, Steve.

By the way, thanks for the update Crystal. I really hope he'll do the right thing. I'll be sure to put this guy on my "do not buy from list".

-Nichole

 

[LauraB]

Since the domain registration for their main sales site (theveiledchameleon . com) is in both names and the same address, it's highly probable that the two live together and Karin really doesn't have to play ignorance or "check" with Steve. Don't fall for the BS.

They both have a history of unhealthy animals and unsatisfied customers:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151442&highlight=karin+lieber
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151502&highlight=karin+lieber
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109065&highlight=karin+lieber
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109755&highlight=karin+lieber
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166676&highlight=steve+vigo

They also have another website, Reptile & Amphibian Warehouse, (http://www.reptileandamphibianwarehouse.com) so buyers beware.

 

[Sirengarg]

Good catch! Thanks for the info on their sister company. Like I said in a previous post, it seems they change the company name from time to time as well. It makes them even more hard to track down previous problems from other customers and I guess that's the idea. I also am not falling for the BS she is giving me. I think this Steve guy is a total putz for not getting some balls and talking to me by email or phone.

I gotta say one thing, its been a wonderful learning experience and I don't mean that sarcastically. Not only learning as a consumer, but my BF and I are talking about breeding corns in the near future and this is a learning experience on how NOT to handle customer relations and problems. I would never have handled it this way anyways, but I'm sure if the tables were reversed, Karin and Steve would be as upset as we are.

 

[Sirengarg]

Today is the day. If she sends me one more email BSing me that she can' get a hold of him, doesn't handle the money, etc, we are contacting our lawyer. I'm tired of the run around. She didn't answer my last email yet, I think the tone is beginning to show I am tired of the crap

 

[Italianlnm]

Did she Email you back yesterday?

I would love to know what happens with this.

 

[navigator1998]

Sounds like a real winner hear! Lmao That snake was sent bad there is no way it is going to be that bad from just sitting for a little while out side. That snake more than likely has never eatten even before it was shipped to you. Good Luck with your snake. Well sell alot of these snakes for $ 85 to $ 100 and I promise them to eat and be healthy before they leave my house.

Chris

 

[LauraB]

Good Luck with your snake

Um ... the poor snake died.

 

[Sirengarg]

Steve refuses to talk to me. Continues to use Karin. My boyfriend said to go ahead and accept the replacement, but with certain reservations. We want the rainbow boa, we want a picture of it eating before it is sent, and we want it sent FedEx. I told them if it arrives UPS, I will notify the deliveryman/woman there is a snake in the package and refuse to accept the shipment. UPS will suspend business with them if I do that. She gave me a little trouble with my request and I told her then we are back to square one with, I want a refund.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Crystal

First, let me preface by saying I 100% agree that they sent you a poor specimen and you are 100% entitled to exercise your guarantee.

That said...this is probably the best example I have ever seen of making sure that you read and understand the TOS prior to buying.

They are lowlifes. No argument there. The TOS are completely slanted in their favor. However, you placed an order and you are bound by them.


Based on their TOS the following excerpts apply to your situation:

We cannot be held responsible for shipping charges incurred for upholding our guarantee. They are the responsibility of you, the buyer.

and

We will replace any animals but we DO NOT OFFER REFUNDS OR CHARGEBACKS.

Unfair? Most certainly. But those are the terms you are operating under. You are entitled to a replacement...that's it. You do not have any legal right to demand a particular shipper or to demand photos of the animal eating. If you refuse the shipment, they will then have honored their guarantee and you will really be SOL. They can also force you to pay to ship the replacement should they so choose.


It always amazes me when buyers try to change points of a contract post transaction. And please bear in mind that a posted TOS does constitute a contract.

Your threats of legal action are baseless as well. Again, under the contract your agreed to your measure of damages is a replacement....period. If they refuse to provide one then you possibly have a small claims case. But your damages would be the purchase price of the animal...nothing more


None of this means that i do not sympathize with your situation. You got a crappy animal and that definitely sucks. I hope your resolution to this situation goes well. I am simply tired of seeing people fail, to do their research, fail to really read TOS and then think they can make demands after the fact over and above TOS.


Take the replacement. If it is not healthy, their TOS requires them to replace that too. However, you have no legal right to change the terms you are operating under.



I am reasonably sure this post will not be popular but this needed to be pointed out.

 

[Sirengarg]

That is all true, yes. But Florida's Pet Lemon Laws can and often will cancel such TOS out. I have seen many cases of pet owners who get sick animals and are able to refuse replacement.

 

[Sirengarg]

Also, I am ONLY asking for the $125. I am not asking any more or less. I have several friends in the legal field including a former judge. If I take them to court, I have a very good chance of winning. Their website says they send healthy animals. Karin said in an email that it was obvious the animal was unhealthy and should not have been sent.

They broke their TOS long before I requested them to break it.

 

[navigator1998]

I would say someone is wrong on that part. If ups does not allow you to ship live animals, than how can you say that she can't not say what shipper she wants. I thought you could only recieve live animals by fed-ex or air parcel ? I would say move forward with your legal action. No matter there contract. They shipped by the wrong carrier and that is not your fault. Also put wrong address and shipped you a poor health snake. And anyone in the business can tell that. Wish you luck in getting your money back or another snake.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

You said that earlier but receiving an animal that may or may not have been damaged in transit would not allow you to implement any such statute. You would have to prove they sent out a sick animal and, while it is pretty obvious to those of us who know reptiles...that is not proof. And since the law in Florida specifically applies to cats and dogs only it is kind of a moot point.

Again...take your replacement and let the blustering go.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I would say someone is wrong on that part. If ups does not allow you to ship live animals, than how can you say that she can't not say what shipper she wants. I thought you could only recieve live animals by fed-ex or air parcel ? I would say move forward with your legal action. No matter there contract. They shipped by the wrong carrier and that is not your fault. Also put wrong address and shipped you a poor health snake. And anyone in the business can tell that. Wish you luck in getting your money back or another snake.

The majority of this post makes little sense but I will try to answer the bits and pieces that do.

It is not illegal to ship UPS. it is against their TOS. The reasson she has no right to specify a shipper is because their TOS do not give her that right. Crystal was aware that they shipped UPS when she placed the order (if she read their TOS)

A typo on the address label that may or may not have been their fault does not invalidate their TOS


Your comment about "go ahead with your legal action" is ridiculous and does not deserve comment.

 

[Sirengarg]

You are 100% right navigator and a nice synopsis of the situation.

If Steve sent the python by FedEx, wrote the label clearly and the snake arrived on time and healthy looking, but still refused to eat and passed within the warranty, I would be all for a replacement snake. Never requested a refund.

If Steve sent it FedEx, wrote the label clearly, and the snake arrived on time and healthy looking and died after the warranty, I would be sad, but understanding.

Snakes refuse food. It happens. However, the fact the animal was unhealthy, dehydrated, sent to the wrong home, and the man REFUSED to answer my requests for help, all this cause its death.