Stolen Gila, Mike Winzer of Angels R Us

[Ken Foose]

The first thing you do with pricy animals in a petstore is make sure they are locked up. We have over 2,000 herps on dislpay at our place, and each and every setup is locked, or set up in a way that requires the moving of tanks onto the floor to open them. Second, if you do get ripped off, you call the police and file a report. Just common sense. Third, you call each and every petstore you can, even ones miles away, and tell them what happened, describe both the animal and the perps, and ask for assistance. I have had several thefts in the past, and there is nothing more insulting then someone walking out with your property. I had an entire deli cup display ripped off my front counter once by two guys as several others with them distracted my entire staff. One of my employees actually jumped through the window of the car as they sped away, and fought them in the moving car for about a mile before they pulled a gun and forced him to jump out of the moving car. We now have EVERYTHING bolted down. As far as cooperation goes, we got a call from a kid who had a prehensile tailed alligator lizard that he wanted to sell us for way, way below the market price. I knew of a store across town that had a group of these for sale, and figured it had to have been swiped from them. I was albe to actually convince this stupid person that I would buy the lizard, but could not do it until after I closed. He volenteered his name, address, and phone # to me, so I could pop by after work and buy it from him. I then called the other store owner, asked him to count his alligator lizards, and hey, what do you know? One was missing. I gave him all the guys information, and he and the police popped by the guys place, and got the lizard back,and the guy went to jail. As store owners, we must watch each others backs, whether we are on good terms with our competitors or not. I did not get along well at all with this store owner, and when he called to thank me and ask why I helped him, I told him I was actually helping myself. If this guy had gotten away with this, who knows, I could be his next target. We must work together in the pet industry, in both helping each other, and in making ourselves as respected by the public as we can. I feel that this whole thing is a shame, and that the person who recieved the gila, and then let it slip out of his hands should be ashamed. Poor business ethics for sure. I just wish you had a store near me, I'd love to run you out of business.

 

[nicolai]

Why change the focus of this???

that an animal such as a Gila should be in an area that is easily accessable to the public and taken out of a locked tank and probably put into something before walking out of the store. No police, no theft notification, another store that receives a Gila (of all reptiles!) dropped off, picked up, returned, who could believe this story!
QUOTE]

I have bought a lot of reptiles off of Steve in the past both at the hamburg show and at his store. I live in NJ and find it worth traveling 4 hours to his place just to get the quality reptiles that he sells. Anyone that knows Steve or has had any dealings with him knows his is a honest stand up guy and doesnt deserve to have his integrety questioned here especially when he came on here to report a incident like this.

You guys better put bars over your windows,video cameras all around your houses and stores, padlocks on all your cages, buy some guard dogs, hire a private security force and maybe install a moat around everything because if anything gets stolen people are going to come on here and take the focus off the crime and focus on how you let this happen.

who could believe this story! I could!!!

I have also been to "Angels R Us" and they didnt seem like bad people but my opinion of them has definitely changed now. What kind of store owner would lie to and screw another one. Things like this have a way of always coming around full circle and someone will get thiers in the end.

Steve if you need any help in this matter Pm me or email me.

 

[nicolai]

one other thing..

Before you start asking things like "who could believe this?' or "somethings a little fishy" or anything like that why not do a BOI search to see who it is you are making the remarks about.

I have bought several snakes from Serpents Den at the local shows. His snakes are always some of the nicest. I would not hesitate to buy from them.

Allan Shultz

I've dealt with Steve a few times, and have come away more than happy each and every time. Ken Harbart

I have been to his shop several times. His animals all look healthy, clean, and free of parasites. He was also more than willing to come out and chat a while, and even show his "prize" boas to me, although I had admitted I wasn't buying.

I purchased a very nice Bredls python from Steve, it was shipped properly and was in perfect condition when it arrived. I would recommend the Serpents Den to anyone considering buying from them. Regards, Jim Elliott

Steve is great. I've purchased quite a few snakes from him and they are always extremely healthy, parasite free animals. He's got my full recommendation.

I haven't actually purchased from Steve. But I have been talking to him for a fair amount of time, and wouldn't hesitate to buy from him.
If he would sell some female Balls, then I would buy from him lol...

I made several purchases from Serpents Den and was always pleased with not only the animals that I purchased but also the overall cleanliness of the shop. It's well worth a drive to visit.

Thers plenty more where that came from so lets take this thing back to the real issue - a animal was stolen-lied about-covered up. What can anybody do to help out, keep our eyes out for that gila, help have a negative financial impact on "Angels R Us" in order to help Steve recover his animal.

Lets make the BOI do what it is supposed to do, help someone out, spread the word and warn others.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Well heres a thought Nicholas!

If anyone gets injured because of that Gila, Steve will still be responsible!!
I am sure Steve is a nice guy, but thats not the issue. He also seems to lack common sense when it comes to protecting his own interests as well as his business when someone can come in to his store distract him open up a tank and take out a poisonous lizard that is probably 2 ft and walk out.

Even if the theft did not occur, the liability could have been substantial because of the ease of someone opening the tank and sticking their hand in the Gila enclosure.

Does it not seem odd that Steve would not report this kind of a theft to the Police Dept. It just takes a few minutes to make the necessary notifications by phone. Less time than it would take Steve to come here to the BOI and write an essay as to what happened. No one doubts that this may have occurred as Steve mentioned it, but if you want to SPREAD THE WORD, I would have contacte the authorities..............before contacting the BOI

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I scanned therough Steve's original post again and, maybe I missed it, but where does it state that he has bot contacted the police?

 

[KNOBTAIL]

John, as a former police officer, it would make sense

when providing a story of that length, one would think that if nothing else, he would mention that the authorities have been notified or at least a police complaint was filed. This is a felony. Secondly, the item in question was poisonous. One can infer that Steve did not notify the police but apparently was looking to resolve this problem with the least amount of notoriety. If I am wrong, then my apologies, but I dont think so.

If you stop and think about it, when Mike received the Gila and Steve was made aware of that fact, I certainly would have warned Mike that a police report had been filed and that Gila may be stolen property. This was just not done. So my inference is justifiable.

 

[Gecko_Den]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am curious with all the talk about Steve being liable if someone should get bitten, what ever became of the Bush Viper incident from last year?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35417

 

[Alias47]

I am sure Steve will come on here today and have his own remarks to make.
In his defense...when I saw the original locked thread yesterday, I shot him a PM regarding my thoughts on the situation.
He responded that the police have been informed and have actually contacted Mike at Angels R Us. I beleive that, at first, he truly believed the Gila had gotten loose in the store...and took the time to tear the place apart before jumping to the conclusion that it had, in fact, been stolen. Mike contacted him sometime around this time...and Steve attempted to recover his property without legal involvement.

Some of you have attacked, not only his husbandry errors, but questioned his lack of legal involvement. I firmly believe, after a brief interaction with Steve, that this his story is genuine. And even though some of us, myself included, have concern for the unlocked cage...and the hesitation to include the police (personally, I feel as a business owner, ANY theft should be reported IMMEDIATELY) Just because the consensus doesn't agree with some of the actions taken, does NOT make this any less of a crime...or stand to reason that Steve doesn't deserve our full support in recovering this animal and prosecuting the theives.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Sam, thanks for bringing that thread to light.

I dont know maybe its me! But how much common sense does it take to weigh the enormous liability to sell a poisonous snake to an individual of that age to a potential lawsuit that could put you , your business and family in the poor house if death were to occur. Certainly whatever profit was obtained from the sale was eaten up from the first attorneys visit. Have I lost my mind, or is Steve that stupid to jeapordize everything for that kind of a sale that we all know can only lead to trouble.

Maybe I am the stupid one for even pursuing this post, but this is what fuels the haters of the herp industry. The worst kind of negligence that this industry cannot afford nor does not need.

 

[dwedeking]

hesitation to include the police (personally, I feel as a business owner, ANY theft should be reported IMMEDIATELY)

Except needing a police report for any insurance filings I'd spend time calling other pet shops before calling the police as I think the chance of finding the reptile would have been faster that way. Just my personal opinion.

I agree with Ken Foose's post. While we may have differences as competitors the real tragedy here (even more than the original theft) is that another pet store owner and small business person would let another out to hang like this. Inexcusable. I'm sure that Steve would have been more than willing to make up for the traded dragon to retrieve his animal (the numbers would just make sense).

 

[albinogila]

The Word is...

Venomous, not poisonous, venomous.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

DEREK, no one is questioning whether the story is

real or not. I am sure it is as Steve wrote it. But an animal of that nature should at least be "behind the counter" secured a bit more intellegently! Am I wrong here?

Assuming that you are correct and that Steve thought that maybe the Gila escaped at first would have prompted me to close the store right their and hunt for that animal without possibly jeapordizing any idividual who may accidently pick it up. At least the police have been notified, and I am glad that Mike was questioned because if nothing else, he has to sign a statement and he would be criminally liable for any falsehoods on his part.

At least we are moving forward. I to appreciate the fact that this was brought to the attention of the BOI, if for nothing else to give a heads up if someone tries to sell a Gila. I hope things work out for Steve, but some of his business practices are going to have to change. Thats just my opinion!

 

[Alias47]

I agree 100% that the ease with which the animal was removed is VERY HAZARDOUS and I am inclined to think, without having seen it firsthand, the caging was irresponsible...and definitely a liability that, not only Steve can't afford to have, but the entire reptile industry would have to shoulder. The reprecussions from an accident would be mindnumbing.
I just wanted to make the point that everyone seemed to be attacking Steve...which is not unusual around here...when he was the one victimized by a felonious act.

Dwedeking...I agree that finding the animal would be easier when dealing directly with the other shop owners in the area...My assertion was that a report MUST be filed and charges pressed on ANYONE caught for the theft of this animal. Letting these criminals get away with theft will just encourage this behaviour...and allow them a first offense NEXT time...when they are stealing from you or me.

 

[SERPENTS DEN]

Police were notified 1/17/05

To clear things up my local Police were notified and were informed that the Gila was in fact venomous and a report was taken. Also in addition I contacted the Allentown Police and the Law Enforcement Department of the Pennsyvania Fish & Game.
The Gila was locked down with 4 clips tightly securing the heavy duty screen and a 10" reflector was on top of the cage.

I have posted a prior thread about this on the Venomous Forum here on the BOI and to those of you who had questions is why I posted the thread here.
I don't have a lot of time on my hands to tend this thread as I have more important things to do like caring for my animals and tending to my business. My free time I like to spend with my daughter as I don't get much free time and I'm certainly not going to take the time to answer questions that are off topic. I just wanted to make people aware of the situation and my main concerns are getting my animal back and seeing a theif behind bars, it has little to do with the value of the animal as I offered it's value as a reward to catch a theif and to get to the bottom of this.

Thank you

 

[SERPENTS DEN]

Copy of my post in the Venomous Forum

The above was stolen from my store Saturday January 15th and was offered to me by another specialty reptile store not far from me who told me he traded it for a Bearded Dragon!
Once I told him a Gila was stolen from my premises and asked if I can look at it he gave me an excuse that he was very tired so I asked him not to let it leave his possesion and I will see it the next day "Tuesday".

From what I know of his reputation and as I suspected I was told the Gila was no longer in his possession. He doesn't know how close I come to to putting his head through a glass aquarium but had second thoughts so I will let the local, State and Federal Authorities handle this now. He can avoid any further investigation by simply returning my property but that is up to him though If not he is likely to be charged in the below.

Knowingly taken into possession a venomous species against local ordinances.

Taken into possession a Federally Protected Species without any proper documentation.

Taken into possession Stolen Property.


Anyway this animal WILL surface sooner or later and ask if you have any information to contact me.

All information will be kept strictly confidential.

 

[Wilomn]

I'm curious why there was a two day delay into filing the police report.

Are there any state, county or city ordinances either for or against keeping venomous animals where the store is?

 

[Alias47]

On Saturday January 15, 2005 we had two guys and a girl in their late teens come into my store...On Sunday it was noticed that the Gila was missing from the enclosure...We spent hours looking for it on Sunday and Monday.
Mike Winzer the owner of Angels R Us located in Allentown, PA called my store... I told him not to move the animal anywhere until I could take a look at it and that I would see him tomorrow which would be Tuesday.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Wilomn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by serpentsden
On Saturday January 15, 2005 we had two guys and a girl in their late teens come into my store...On Sunday it was noticed that the Gila was missing from the enclosure...We spent hours looking for it on Sunday and Monday.
Mike Winzer the owner of Angels R Us located in Allentown, PA called my store... I told him not to move the animal anywhere until I could take a look at it and that I would see him tomorrow which would be Tuesday.



Sounds reasonable to me.

Actually, it sounds like they didn't know the lizard was missing until the day after they think it was stolen, that they then waited another day, supposedly to get the lizard back, before calling the cops.

Had that been my lizard I would have been at that guys shop before he closed the night he said he had it.

There is just something about this that is not quite right. I could be wrong, but there's just this niggling feeling that something important is not yet out in public.

I suppose if we let steve answer for himself instead of others doing it for him we may get closer to a satisfactory conclusion as well.

 

[napavalleysnakes]

Sounds Very Suspicious

Steve - It sounds like you're getting a Snow-Job on this one. This particular line stuck out to me:

He said he knew that the guy moved here from California and bought the Gila at a show in California.

Everyone out here knows (in California) that Gilas are illegal to sell (native species).... And with all the shows I've done out here, I have never (not once) seen a Gila up for sale !

Hope it works out for you !

Stephen Emerick

 

[Chris@TSE]

Had that been my lizard I would have been at that guys shop before he closed the night he said he had it.

Damn Right!