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Posted 08/15/2025
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Addendum: 01/10/2026
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Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....
Stolen Gila, Mike Winzer of Angels R Us
- Thread starter Russ Bates
- Start date
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
NICHOLAS Ive heard this same excuse all the time
and this is a classic example of the mentality that pervades this industry. This is NOT about your right to have venomous reptiles. If you are housing these kinds of animals, and you have the permits and fill all the necessary requirements that the state asks for, then by all means you are within your legal right to house them.
What we have here is a store that knew that the sale was intended for a minor. As it turned out , if I am not mistaken, he got bit! And to take it to its next logical conclusion it ended up at an attorneys office. Who knows how this is going to end. It could have been tragic and even though papers were signed, the DA could very easily have filed for negligible homicide had death occurred. My point being is that their is a difference between a known breeder or collector in this field and others who may want to have these venomous animals as pets or conversation pieces. Not every sale has to be made. The store owner or Steve should have been a bit more discretionary in determining whether or not this sale should even have been consummated.
Let me say this much as well, I get the feeling and I dont know Steve, but from his previous post he seems to be doing us a favor by coming here and addressing this whole issue. He is a busy man, and apparently has little regard for consequences that seem to arise out of his own negligence. Personally, I dont care what he does in his own business. But I do care about the herp industry, and I think he should be a bit more conserned about insuring that these incidents become less repetitive, because his problems seem to be with venomous animals and one day his luck will run out !!!!
and this is a classic example of the mentality that pervades this industry. This is NOT about your right to have venomous reptiles. If you are housing these kinds of animals, and you have the permits and fill all the necessary requirements that the state asks for, then by all means you are within your legal right to house them.
What we have here is a store that knew that the sale was intended for a minor. As it turned out , if I am not mistaken, he got bit! And to take it to its next logical conclusion it ended up at an attorneys office. Who knows how this is going to end. It could have been tragic and even though papers were signed, the DA could very easily have filed for negligible homicide had death occurred. My point being is that their is a difference between a known breeder or collector in this field and others who may want to have these venomous animals as pets or conversation pieces. Not every sale has to be made. The store owner or Steve should have been a bit more discretionary in determining whether or not this sale should even have been consummated.
Let me say this much as well, I get the feeling and I dont know Steve, but from his previous post he seems to be doing us a favor by coming here and addressing this whole issue. He is a busy man, and apparently has little regard for consequences that seem to arise out of his own negligence. Personally, I dont care what he does in his own business. But I do care about the herp industry, and I think he should be a bit more conserned about insuring that these incidents become less repetitive, because his problems seem to be with venomous animals and one day his luck will run out !!!!
SERPENTS DEN
New member
Jerry,
Perhaps you have a bad memory but if you check your records you shall find I have purchased from you DBA The Drosophila Co.
If any of you want to discuss something other than this thread please do so in the appropriate thread.
Perhaps you have a bad memory but if you check your records you shall find I have purchased from you DBA The Drosophila Co.
If any of you want to discuss something other than this thread please do so in the appropriate thread.
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
Well Steve, I just checked our data base
and you are right, I did sell you some sets , 6 YEARS AGO !
So what is the point of the post!
and you are right, I did sell you some sets , 6 YEARS AGO !
So what is the point of the post!
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
This is drifting wildly off topic here but Jerry, that has got to be one of the absolute DUMBEST series of posts I have ever read!
Steve sold the snake TO AN ADULT, that adult then chose to let their kid poke it. It's their kid, their choice- NOT your kid and not YOUR choice and similarly NOT Steve's kid and NOT Steve's choice. In Pennsylvania, no state permit is required to own a venomous animal and frankly it's only the business of the parent and whatever state child welfare agencies may exist should a child be made responsible for the care and handling of a venomous animal after it's been sold. Trying to deny sales to people with children based on your personal (and might I add idiotic) feelings that teenagers are too irresponsible to be in the same building with one (maybe you have kids that are just dumbasses that would try and freehandle?)... That's crap. If someone feels their kid is responsible enough to own a venomous animal... THEIR kid, THEIR choice.
It is absolutely NOT the responsibility of a dealer to do in depth background checks on any buyer to make sure they aren't mental midgets. Sure they may choose to ask a few questions if they get an odd feeling about a sale and refusing one is well within their right... but when a customer says "I have experience." it pretty much ends there. Calling them a liar isn't exactly good community relations and overanalyzing individual buyers tends to drive them away; both competent and the oddball nitwit.
Steve was in no way at fault for anything in that other situation and it can't be called HIS mistake. That's like blaming gun manufacturers for muggings or McDonalds for obesity. The end consumer has a responsibility not to do stupid things that should not be foisted off on someone who merely provided a product.
Steve sold the snake TO AN ADULT, that adult then chose to let their kid poke it. It's their kid, their choice- NOT your kid and not YOUR choice and similarly NOT Steve's kid and NOT Steve's choice. In Pennsylvania, no state permit is required to own a venomous animal and frankly it's only the business of the parent and whatever state child welfare agencies may exist should a child be made responsible for the care and handling of a venomous animal after it's been sold. Trying to deny sales to people with children based on your personal (and might I add idiotic) feelings that teenagers are too irresponsible to be in the same building with one (maybe you have kids that are just dumbasses that would try and freehandle?)... That's crap. If someone feels their kid is responsible enough to own a venomous animal... THEIR kid, THEIR choice.
It is absolutely NOT the responsibility of a dealer to do in depth background checks on any buyer to make sure they aren't mental midgets. Sure they may choose to ask a few questions if they get an odd feeling about a sale and refusing one is well within their right... but when a customer says "I have experience." it pretty much ends there. Calling them a liar isn't exactly good community relations and overanalyzing individual buyers tends to drive them away; both competent and the oddball nitwit.
Steve was in no way at fault for anything in that other situation and it can't be called HIS mistake. That's like blaming gun manufacturers for muggings or McDonalds for obesity. The end consumer has a responsibility not to do stupid things that should not be foisted off on someone who merely provided a product.
SERPENTS DEN
New member
KNOBTAIL said:
My point was you said you didn't know me, I'm so sorry I'm not a repeat customer.
Alias47
Statistic
I have to agree with Seamus COMPLETELY...
I was going to say something (although nowhere near as eloquently) to the same effect, but I didn't even want to qualify Jerry's attack on Steve.
Chances are he could NOT be held liable for Negligable Homicide...especially if he had paperwork signed by the parents. If he did (and you stated that he did) have said paperwork...he could not even be effectively sued in civil court for damages.
I do not know the entire story of this previous sale...but judging by the story you portrayed, Jerry, he did nothing wrong. Your superior ethics must override all reasonable judgement? This incident was entirely in the hands of the parents. Steve should not be criticized for the actions and irresponsibilities of these people being as they were completely beyond his control.
I was going to say something (although nowhere near as eloquently) to the same effect, but I didn't even want to qualify Jerry's attack on Steve.
Chances are he could NOT be held liable for Negligable Homicide...especially if he had paperwork signed by the parents. If he did (and you stated that he did) have said paperwork...he could not even be effectively sued in civil court for damages.
I do not know the entire story of this previous sale...but judging by the story you portrayed, Jerry, he did nothing wrong. Your superior ethics must override all reasonable judgement? This incident was entirely in the hands of the parents. Steve should not be criticized for the actions and irresponsibilities of these people being as they were completely beyond his control.
SERPENTS DEN
New member
I don't have need to mention names but certain individuals bring their own hobby down by not supporting there fellow hobbyist.
SERPENTS DEN
New member
I received a phone call from Rick Krumrine who told me he’s gonna be pissed if his name comes up in this but I told Rick I’m telling the story as is which Mike included him in on. One thing Rick told me which doesn’t make sense to me is he just spoke to Mike but wasn’t sure if he’s spoken to him since being offered this Gila on Monday and Tuesday when Mike opened he said I can call Rick myself as he was aware of the situation.
About Rick Krumrine; Personally I don’t think Rick would be ignorant enough to take a stolen Gila into his possession knowing the circumstances.
I’m finished replying to this thread I said my piece and hopefully things end on a positive note.
Thanks to all of you who have offered support!
About Rick Krumrine; Personally I don’t think Rick would be ignorant enough to take a stolen Gila into his possession knowing the circumstances.
I’m finished replying to this thread I said my piece and hopefully things end on a positive note.
Thanks to all of you who have offered support!
Wilomn
New member
Guys, you're mixing mess ups here.
There is another thread to deal with the snake.
Let's keep this one about the Gila.
Any news steve?
There is another thread to deal with the snake.
Let's keep this one about the Gila.
Any news steve?
Wilomn
New member
That should have said, "mixing up threads" here
Let's try to keep these incidents separate.
Let's try to keep these incidents separate.
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
thanks SEAMUS, it always a welcome relief to have
you join in. The bottom line to all of this resides in the outcome if litigation ever occurs. I have been involved in the past with difficulties that occurred during the turtle salmonella escapades in the 70s and I tell you from very good experience, that a store owner better ask allot of questions when it comes to selling venomous herps, because it may come back to bite him and his business with some nasty litigation. Although many of the sales were to adults who were quite capable of making up their own minds, had their children exposed to a disease that the JURY did not take lightly.
So please spare me the rhetoric, if anything you do not know what YOU are talking about. Until you have been on the side that prosecutes, and until you see how the insurance companies, the health officials, the law enforcement community and the district attorneys office look at these things when children get injured, EVEN WITH THE PARENTS KNOWINGINGLY bringing these things into contact with their own children, the fault always and will continue to be by default to the manufacturer, the store , the importer and anyone else who can be sued! So. please , dont get involved if you dont have any experience in these matter, and seriously think about what you are writing when you post a thread about how dumb you think my statements may be.
Your way over your head here.
you join in. The bottom line to all of this resides in the outcome if litigation ever occurs. I have been involved in the past with difficulties that occurred during the turtle salmonella escapades in the 70s and I tell you from very good experience, that a store owner better ask allot of questions when it comes to selling venomous herps, because it may come back to bite him and his business with some nasty litigation. Although many of the sales were to adults who were quite capable of making up their own minds, had their children exposed to a disease that the JURY did not take lightly.
So please spare me the rhetoric, if anything you do not know what YOU are talking about. Until you have been on the side that prosecutes, and until you see how the insurance companies, the health officials, the law enforcement community and the district attorneys office look at these things when children get injured, EVEN WITH THE PARENTS KNOWINGINGLY bringing these things into contact with their own children, the fault always and will continue to be by default to the manufacturer, the store , the importer and anyone else who can be sued! So. please , dont get involved if you dont have any experience in these matter, and seriously think about what you are writing when you post a thread about how dumb you think my statements may be.
Your way over your head here.
Aaargh
I am really interested to see how this business about the GILA<<<YES THE GILA is going.
I sincerely hope that Web Slave will swoop down and clean up this mess. Would you people PLEASE keep this ON TOPIC or open new threads. This is ridiculous.
This is not about another snake, kids, parents or who is liable when (btw. in some beforementioned scenarios, noone would sell nothing to noone, not dogs, not kittens, not toys, you can get hurt with EVERYTHING, and if its always the manufactors/sellers fault, then there would be NONE)
This is about the GILA MONSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now can we please have this ON TOPIC.
Help, Webbie.
I am really interested to see how this business about the GILA<<<YES THE GILA is going.
I sincerely hope that Web Slave will swoop down and clean up this mess. Would you people PLEASE keep this ON TOPIC or open new threads. This is ridiculous.
This is not about another snake, kids, parents or who is liable when (btw. in some beforementioned scenarios, noone would sell nothing to noone, not dogs, not kittens, not toys, you can get hurt with EVERYTHING, and if its always the manufactors/sellers fault, then there would be NONE)
This is about the GILA MONSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now can we please have this ON TOPIC.
Help, Webbie.
ravensgait
Convoluted Member
I agree
There is a pretty long thread about that, If they want to dredge it up they can talk about it there.
Randy
There is a pretty long thread about that, If they want to dredge it up they can talk about it there.
Randy
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
MISTY your absolutely correct
this is about a stolen Gila. Lets leave it at that. I hope Steve gets it back and whoever stole it gets incarcerated.
this is about a stolen Gila. Lets leave it at that. I hope Steve gets it back and whoever stole it gets incarcerated.
nicolai
Philosophical Statesman
on the subject..
Apparently the kid that stole it doesnt want it because he wanted to trade it for a bearded. So its safe to say he will try to get rid of it elsewhere. There are a few shows coming up in PA and MD, take a copy of the pic of the gila with you and keep an eye out for it.
Those of you with all the internet skills, keep an eye out accross the different online classified for soeone in PA selling a Gila.
Lets show everyone what the BOI is capable of and get Steve his Gila back.
P.S. The reward would be nice too.
Apparently the kid that stole it doesnt want it because he wanted to trade it for a bearded. So its safe to say he will try to get rid of it elsewhere. There are a few shows coming up in PA and MD, take a copy of the pic of the gila with you and keep an eye out for it.
Those of you with all the internet skills, keep an eye out accross the different online classified for soeone in PA selling a Gila.
Lets show everyone what the BOI is capable of and get Steve his Gila back.
P.S. The reward would be nice too.
Alias47
Statistic
repfriend said:
Agreed.
If the kid came back for it...it was most likely at the insistance of Mike from Angels R Us...if this part of Mike's story is even true...
Kind of wish he would come on here to relate his own account of the incident...that would definitely give everyone something to mull over.
nicolai
Philosophical Statesman
good luck......
Good luck at ever getting mike to post on here. i would be very surprised if he came on here to try to defend himself on this one. He screwed Steve and he knows it. Mike should have held on to the gila and refused to give it back to the kid, or had his so called "employee" make sure it stayed there until Steve had the chance to identify it.
If any of you recieved a animal that another dealer/wholesaler/store owner told you they thought it was a stolen animal would then let the person (the person that brought it in) come and remove it from your facility? Talk about bad ethics.
Good luck at ever getting mike to post on here. i would be very surprised if he came on here to try to defend himself on this one. He screwed Steve and he knows it. Mike should have held on to the gila and refused to give it back to the kid, or had his so called "employee" make sure it stayed there until Steve had the chance to identify it.
If any of you recieved a animal that another dealer/wholesaler/store owner told you they thought it was a stolen animal would then let the person (the person that brought it in) come and remove it from your facility? Talk about bad ethics.
C
Chris@TSE
Guest
Cant get much worse than that.....