Stop Torturing Your Pythons!

[Necoco]

I used to work in an animal lab. I've manually killed many small animal species. Pithing is only OK if you are an expert, and it can still be distressing to everyone involved. Head crushing will have the same effect, and there have been extensive discussions in these forums about decapitation (NOT GOOD) vs head crushing.

Here is a practical suggestion on how to head crush with the minimum of distress to all involved.

1. Cool the animal in the fridge until it is torpid (ie completely immobile).

2. QUICKLY wrap torpid animal's head in an absorbent cloth (thin towel / paper towel etc).

3. QUICKLY (you do not want the animal to warm up again) Hit the head (still inside the towel) with a blunt object - hammer, tennis racket handle etc.

Make sure that you have thoroughly crushed the entire head and brain.

Result = Quick and hopefully painless death with minimum trauma to human, also free.

Completely different from what i was thinking when you said head crushing,but i'll keep this in mind as well.

 

[Helenthereef]

It depends on the animal. Some go unconscious before the suffocation begins (rodents, for instance). I'm less certain about reptiles.

What animals have you seen killed with CO2 that struggle to breathe? (This is an honest question!)

I've seen it with small mammals (rats/mice) and day old chicks - don't like it. I haven't tried it with reptiles because of that, so I don't speak from personal knowledge there, but I extrapolate that as they have a slower metabolism, it would go on longer for them... have you used it? Do you have personal observations?

By the way I think it's great to have this discussion in such a calm manner. I've seen threads on this before where it gets very heated, and no one learns when accusations get thrown around, so congratulations on giving this a forum without it turning into a S**T fight.

People need to be able to ask these questions without getting attacked

 

[R. Eventide]

I've seen it with small mammals (rats/mice) and day old chicks - don't like it. I haven't tried it with reptiles because of that, so I don't speak from personal knowledge there, but I extrapolate that as they have a slower metabolism, it would go on longer for them... have you used it? Do you have personal observations?

By the way I think it's great to have this discussion in such a calm manner. I've seen threads on this before where it gets very heated, and no one learns when accusations get thrown around, so congratulations on giving this a forum without it turning into a S**T fight.

People need to be able to ask these questions without getting attacked

Ouch. And they weren't unconscious while gasping? If they were unconscious, it wouldn't be a problem, but if they were, yeah, that's a no-go. Then again, it's really hard to tell when something is conscious. :-/

I did some more quick research on CO2, and learned a few things. Like for small mammals, one needs specific concentrations to cause rapid loss of consciousness, which I hadn't thought of.

In terms of reptiles, and it seems like some say it's okay "for certain species" and some say it's bad. (I have yet to find out what these "certain species" are. Grr.) It does make sense, though, that for reptiles, it would be a bad idea. Their slow metabolisms and breath-holding ability would make it take a long time to die, if at all. Again, a "long time" doesn't mean "painful," but it does mean one would need quite a bit of CO2.

Either way, I'm not liking how CO2 is looking, especially in terms of reptiles. I did CO2 a rat once with dry ice in a 10-gallon tank. Because of the condensation, I was unable to see how the rat reacted, but there was no obvious (audible) thrashing or anything of the sort, and it took mere minutes for the rat to pass away. Still, that's one rat, and I wasn't able to see it. I'd have to do more research before doing it again, obviously, especially with your first-hand experience.

Me too, in terms of discussing in a calm manner. :-] I'm grateful for that, most definitely. You're absolutely right: it's hard to learn anything in a flame war. It's sad when people are afraid to ask questions for fear of being yelled at or insulted. I can't take all the credit for that, though; responders have to be calm, too, so thank y'all for being civil as well.

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For freezing reptiles, in general, I have a few more resources.

Another one from a vet (posted on Melissa Kaplan's reptile pages): http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

A UK report: http://www.rabiesblueprint.com/IMG/pdf/Link72_Euthanasia_EC_Part2.pdf (includes that CO2 is not acceptable for reptiles).

And an additional paper (http://www.thefrilleddragon.com/content/129-Euthanasia-of-Reptiles) that contains the following (emphasis mine):

"Because ectotherms become progressively inactive with lowering of body temperature, it has been assumed in the past that cooling them prior to euthanasia would not only facilitate handling, but would anaesthetise them. Reptiles immobilised in this way were then placed in a domestic freezer and killed by subsequent freezing. This method of euthanasia is not acceptable in the light of modern knowledge. Although decreasing temperature decreases metabolic rate and decreases response to stimuli, it is not known how it affects pain perception impulses in various nerve bundles are affected differently by temperature and some authors feel that pain neurons are less cold affected than motor neurons. Most published guidelines on euthanasia now include statements to the effect that although cooling ectotherms produces torpor, it does not reduce their ability to feel pain2,3,5, and indeed it may prolong suffering since a lowered metabolic rate would delay the onset of unconsciousness due to hypoxia. Humans dying from hypothermia are said to experience numbness, even euphoria; but this is believed to be due to endorphin production by the mammalian, endothermic brain; there seems to be no evidence for this in reptiles. A conscious reptile placed in a freezer would experience a very painful death. Destruction of its skin and eyes due to ice crystal formation within the cells, causing intense pain, would occur long before the brain had become chilled enough to cause loss of consciousness, especially in the case of a large reptile such as an iguana, whose brain would take a considerable time to chill. Even inducing hypothermia for facilitating the handling of reptiles is now considered inappropriate and inhumane by many authorities5, and freezing in a domestic freezer should not be accepted as a method of euthanasia for any unanaesthetised animal of any species.

"The Euthanasia Working Party (EWP) report published in Laboratory Animals (International Journal of Laboratory Animal Science and Welfare)3 on the recommendations for euthanasia of experimental animals states that
hypothermia ' ..will make the animal torpid but will not raise the pain threshold. The formation of ice crystals within the body tissues is likely to be extremely painful. Hypothermia is not acceptable for euthanasia.' This is a comment typical of many found throughout the literature. The only mention of refrigeration in the Home Office Code of Practice for the Humane Killing of Animals4 is for small foetal, larval and embryonic forms of animal and even so, reptile eggs and embryos are specifically
excluded from this method because of their resistance to chilling and hypoxia. In the laboratory situation dropping into liquid nitrogen at minus 1960C – a very extreme form of freezing, far removed from a domestic freezer may be acceptable for animals of less than 40g bodyweight (i.e. less than 1cm in diameter) as liquid nitrogen would freeze an entire body of that size instantaneously.10"

 

[R. Eventide]

Oops, forgot to mention: In terms of the large litter of deformed snakes, I'm not sure what I'd do, honestly. I'd try my hardest to find a way other than freezing and that didn't completely break the bank.... I'd probably ask my vet what he'd recommend.

I do think, though, that there can be [extremely rare] times when freezing is the more humane way to go. The best example I've been able to come up with is for a case where the reptile is obviously suffering a great deal, and waiting to go to the vet (say, if one can't get an appointment until the next day) would be worse than freezing.

 

[Necoco]

Oops, forgot to mention: In terms of the large litter of deformed snakes, I'm not sure what I'd do, honestly. I'd try my hardest to find a way other than freezing and that didn't completely break the bank.... I'd probably ask my vet what he'd recommend.

I do think, though, that there can be [extremely rare] times when freezing is the more humane way to go. The best example I've been able to come up with is for a case where the reptile is obviously suffering a great deal, and waiting to go to the vet (say, if one can't get an appointment until the next day) would be worse than freezing.

That's the only time i'd honestly freeze anyway. I've seen a few articles where people will freeze if there is ANY sort of deformity,even if it's something minor like two tails. I for one think that's pretty neat and as long as the animal's not physically suffering from it then i'd say just leave it be. Either way i'd still just do it my self and not go to a vet. The only thing i disagree with about people using it is when they do it just to get rid of a low quality animal (dull colors,they didn't like it's pattern,etc) because they were too lazy to try and give it to a pet store or something.

 

[Helenthereef]

Ouch. And they weren't unconscious while gasping? If they were unconscious, it wouldn't be a problem, but if they were, yeah, that's a no-go. Then again, it's really hard to tell when something is conscious. :-/

I did some more quick research on CO2, and learned a few things. Like for small mammals, one needs specific concentrations to cause rapid loss of consciousness, which I hadn't thought of.

I only tried CO2 a couple of times, and it was a while ago, so my recollections may not be super-sharp; and I agree it's hard to know for sure at what point and animal loses consciousness, but I seem to remember gasping and apparent searching for air. I think concentration may have a lot to do with it. if you can pipe in 100% CO2 all at once it may be fast, but if you are relying on sublimation of dry ice pellets it's pretty random.

We used to use ether-soaked cotton-wool in a sealed chamber, but of course that isn't generally available, and I'm not sure I'd use that on reptiles, as their slow metabolism would probably result in slower unconsciousness than in mammals. (I've seen a "dead" locust wake up a full hour after ether).

I'm a firm believer in physical methods - I think that basically if you are going to breed and keep large number of animals you need to take the responsibility for painless euthanasia when required - and that, to me, means either paying up for a professional vet or learning to kill COMPETENTLY. I stress that because confidence is essential. It's hesitation that results in suffering.

Small mammals and birds are simple - a sharp knock on the back of the head and then physically break the neck. Practice on a dead one a few times before you try a live animal.

Re reptiles I'm favouring the cool and crush method I posted earlier (don't suppose it would be very helpful with tortoises though..... )

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

Here's my $.02 on this subject. I'm have a degree in zoology and in biology and have some knowledge on the A&P of reptiles. I have also worked in several labs in the past and have put down numerous animals via CO2 and pithing/head crush. I absolutely agree that pithing is the most humane way to put the animal(s) down. It has been already noted that freezing is not humane. I agree 100%. A reptile is designed to handle extreme temperature fluctuations more efficiently than mammals. It takes much much longer for them to die then a mammal would in the freezer. They will still have brain function well after most of their cells in their body have frozen and ruptured. It is absolutely horrid. CO2 also takes a very long time to euthanize a reptile. Reptiles can slow their heart rate for extended periods of time and they will, and do take a long time to finally suffocate via CO2. Pithing/head crushing is by far the most humane way to put down a reptile. If done correctly, it is instant. It's rough on the person doing it, but you have to put that aside and remember it is what's best for the animal. It was noted perfectly in a previous reply. Wrap the head in a few paper towels and strike with a flat, blunt object directly.

 

[Precision Pythons]

http://www.pnwhs.org/Articles/Freezing-reptiles-form-euthanasia[/url]

Some of the highlights:

"Unfortunately, the myth that freezing herps is a good way to put them down persists. It almost makes sense, being that reptiles and amphibians are 'cold-blooded,' but in fact, this adaptation makes this procedure even worse for them. This is because as they get cold, they become torporous, that is, alert mentally but unable to move or respond. This is in contrast to mammals, which become unable to move, but also become mentally dull and comatose as they become hypothermic. As a result, reptiles and amphibians can feel their body get cold, which produces pain, but they can do nothing about it. Studies show that they can, literally, feel their cells freeze and rupture as they get further chilled, sensing pain as intensely as if they were being burned alive, but unable to move or respond."

I'd like a biologist to chime on in this, because it seems like hogwash. As a reptile cools, *all* of it's processes slow down, including cognitive function. The blood within the brain is cooled, neurons are cooled and function more slowly (since nerve function is nothing but a chemical reaction of ion gates opening/closing which happens more slowly at lower temperatures.) The animal slows down on all levels. So while there may be discomfort at the cooling, the ability to perceive it is lessened as the animal cools.

Do you think reptiles that hibernate feel pain? I doubt it.

Jon

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

I'd like a biologist to chime on in this, because it seems like hogwash. As a reptile cools, *all* of it's processes slow down, including cognitive function. The blood within the brain is cooled, neurons are cooled and function more slowly (since nerve function is nothing but a chemical reaction of ion gates opening/closing which happens more slowly at lower temperatures.) The animal slows down on all levels. So while there may be discomfort at the cooling, the ability to perceive it is lessened as the animal cools.

Do you think reptiles that hibernate feel pain? I doubt it.

Jon

For those who don't believe me here you go:

http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

 

[scratchypen]

My suggestion for anything small enough: Kingsnakes. We had a litter of dumerils born last year where there were only a few without problems. Most died shortly after birth. Had 3 'normal' ones, the rest were disabled in some way, i think there were 5 that had problems if I remember correctly. There was only one which we considered disabled enough for euthanasia and we stuck it in with the largest kingsnake we had. I also do that with corn snakes that wont eat. If you dont consider feeding your snakes rodents as torture, then, Im not sure why you would consider feeding your snakes other snakes would be torture. It was fast and worked well. If your snake is too big for a kingsnake, then, I know in warm blooded creatures CO2 is supposed to be the most humane. I really dunno about reptiles though. Luckily I have not been in a situation where I have had an adult snake in my possession that is suffering.

 

[Helenthereef]

Some really good points being made - I agree withe the Kingsnake solution if you have them handy - If it's OK for rodents, why not for snakes?

Re argument for freezing - cognitive function is not the same as the ability to feel pain, and hibernation is cooling not freezing. I am a biologist and so is B&C Ball Pythons, so I think we've got that covered, and we agree that slowly freezing an animal is going to cause easily avoidable pain.

Just being the easiest option for the human is not a sufficient justification when there are simple improvements that can be made as posted here.

 

[R. Eventide]

That's the only time i'd honestly freeze anyway. I've seen a few articles where people will freeze if there is ANY sort of deformity,even if it's something minor like two tails. I for one think that's pretty neat and as long as the animal's not physically suffering from it then i'd say just leave it be. Either way i'd still just do it my self and not go to a vet. The only thing i disagree with about people using it is when they do it just to get rid of a low quality animal (dull colors,they didn't like it's pattern,etc) because they were too lazy to try and give it to a pet store or something.

Yeah, the idea that people not only freeze willy-nilly but freeze at even the smallest sign of something wrong (or the "wrong" morph) makes my insides freeze!

I only tried CO2 a couple of times, and it was a while ago, so my recollections may not be super-sharp; and I agree it's hard to know for sure at what point and animal loses consciousness, but I seem to remember gasping and apparent searching for air. I think concentration may have a lot to do with it. if you can pipe in 100% CO2 all at once it may be fast, but if you are relying on sublimation of dry ice pellets it's pretty random.

I'm a firm believer in physical methods - I think that basically if you are going to breed and keep large number of animals you need to take the responsibility for painless euthanasia when required - and that, to me, means either paying up for a professional vet or learning to kill COMPETENTLY. I stress that because confidence is essential. It's hesitation that results in suffering.

Re reptiles I'm favouring the cool and crush method I posted earlier (don't suppose it would be very helpful with tortoises though..... )

Yeah, in the paper I read detailing CO2 euthanasia of a variety of small mammals, they were very specific about the concentration. Some of the animals actually did better at lower concentrations! They also said that the usual dry ice method typically doesn't have a high enough concentration: one needs an enclosed space, specific timing for euthanizing multiple animals in a row, etc.

But yep, I agree with your other points. I'd much rather do the vet visit myself, but that's just me...because...well...what can I say? I'm a wus.

Here's my $.02 on this subject. I'm have a degree in zoology and in biology and have some knowledge on the A&P of reptiles. I have also worked in several labs in the past and have put down numerous animals via CO2 and pithing/head crush. I absolutely agree that pithing is the most humane way to put the animal(s) down. It has been already noted that freezing is not humane. I agree 100%. A reptile is designed to handle extreme temperature fluctuations more efficiently than mammals. It takes much much longer for them to die then a mammal would in the freezer. They will still have brain function well after most of their cells in their body have frozen and ruptured. It is absolutely horrid. CO2 also takes a very long time to euthanize a reptile. Reptiles can slow their heart rate for extended periods of time and they will, and do take a long time to finally suffocate via CO2. Pithing/head crushing is by far the most humane way to put down a reptile. If done correctly, it is instant. It's rough on the person doing it, but you have to put that aside and remember it is what's best for the animal. It was noted perfectly in a previous reply. Wrap the head in a few paper towels and strike with a flat, blunt object directly.

Thanks for your input! Always good to have actual biologists chime in! Yeah, I'm a scientist, but I'm no biologist!

Do you think reptiles that hibernate feel pain? I doubt it.

Helen said it better, but here's my response: Does a hibernating/brumating reptile feel pain because of the cold? No. (They're not at freezing temps.) Would a hibernating/brumating reptile feel pain if you poked them with a sharp stick? Heck, yeah!

My suggestion for anything small enough: Kingsnakes. We had a litter of dumerils born last year where there were only a few without problems. Most died shortly after birth. Had 3 'normal' ones, the rest were disabled in some way, i think there were 5 that had problems if I remember correctly. There was only one which we considered disabled enough for euthanasia and we stuck it in with the largest kingsnake we had. I also do that with corn snakes that wont eat. If you dont consider feeding your snakes rodents as torture, then, Im not sure why you would consider feeding your snakes other snakes would be torture. It was fast and worked well. If your snake is too big for a kingsnake, then, I know in warm blooded creatures CO2 is supposed to be the most humane. I really dunno about reptiles though. Luckily I have not been in a situation where I have had an adult snake in my possession that is suffering.

That's a good idea, actually! I bet in most big cities, there's bound to be someone with a snake-eating snake (or other snake-eating animal). (Would zoos accept such food snakes? Probably not from random, unknown sources, but it's worth a shot, I guess.) Putting down a snake by making it food for something else gives the snake's death more meaning, I think.

Just being the easiest option for the human is not a sufficient justification when there are simple improvements that can be made as posted here.

And this is the biggest reason why I hate hearing about people freezing their reptiles. It has nothing to do with the well-being of the snake--only the convenience for the owner.

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Thanks, everyone, for contributing to the discussion!

 

[Necoco]

Yeah, the idea that people not only freeze willy-nilly but freeze at even the smallest sign of something wrong (or the "wrong" morph) makes my insides freeze!

Yeah,i never liked that. Just because the person who bred them doesn't like it doesn't mean someone else wont. XP