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Stud BP terms

T

TampaBayBalls

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So I'm looking for a stud BP, and I'm wondering what normal terms are. I have a 100% het for albino female and a huge normal male that I want to breed with a dom morph male. I was thinking of offering the stud male 1st and 3rd pic of the babies, but at least one breeder (with a pastel male) kind of laughed at that. What do you all think fair terms are? I would be handling all shipping, incubating, etc.
Mitchell
www.firehshaman.com
 
Mitchell,

Usually in breeder loans, the females go to the Morph owner. You would not get first pick, and it would go half and half if you were lucky...
Honestly, I know you have the best intentions, but you would have to send your girls, not the other way around. Good luck finding someone to take your deal.
 
TampaBayBalls said:
So I'm looking for a stud BP, and I'm wondering what normal terms are. I have a 100% het for albino female and a huge normal male that I want to breed with a dom morph male. I was thinking of offering the stud male 1st and 3rd pic of the babies, but at least one breeder (with a pastel male) kind of laughed at that. What do you all think fair terms are? I would be handling all shipping, incubating, etc.
Mitchell
www.firehshaman.com
Click to expand...
Why dont you just buy a 100% het albino male and breed your female yourself.Males run around a $100 or so and you keep 100% of whatever you produce.I also do not think anyone is going to send you there morph males to breed to your female.
 
I was going to send the females, and I was going to offer the owner of the male 1st and 3rd choice (plus half and half on the rest, I really just want the second choice). I have a het for albino male, I just want to breed to an albino male to increse my odds, plus for my normal female I'd really like a pastel or spider male, and I can't afford a breeding size male.
M
 
post

TampaBayBalls said:
I was going to send the females, and I was going to offer the owner of the male 1st and 3rd choice (plus half and half on the rest, I really just want the second choice). I have a het for albino male, I just want to breed to an albino male to increse my odds, plus for my normal female I'd really like a pastel or spider male, and I can't afford a breeding size male.
M
Click to expand...
In your first post you said you would be doing everything(incubating ,breeding etc).Right now i do not think anyone is going to take on any more females to breed as for most the breeding season is almost done.I have a pastel male that hatched out 6-12 2005 and he bred two females for me at 500 grams(the male).If you have a male het albino why split the profits with someone else? I am not sure how much differance the odds would be breeding the het female to a albino compared to your het male.I hope you understand where i am coming from.Good luck to you
 
The odds would double if I breed to an albino male as opposed to my het. Plus none of the kids would be possible hets, they would all be 100%
 
i understand

I see now :slamit: .I understand the genetics of ball pythons but still kinda iffy on breeding percentages .
 
Mitchell,

Like I said before, it is mainly a trust issue, and with expensive snakes, most people aren't willing to trust strangers. Just save up and try and buy one if you can, it's easier than convincing someone that you aren't out to steal anything from them.

This buisness is a very dangerous one, and tons of people are pessimistic about the intentions of others when it comes to their stock. Hopefully, for your sake, I hope you can find someone, but don't keep your hopes up.

Good luck, and I wish you the best! :)
 
unless you can drive and meet them. if i had something besides a normal ball i would drive down to reno and drop the snake off at your house so i know where to pick it up from. that seems to be the ONLY safe way to do things.
 
What's a fair split is not well defined in the snake industry.

Your het female to someone else's homozygous recessive male is particularly difficult.

If you keep her at home and use your het male you will on average get 25% of a clutch of albinos and 75% of a clutch of 66% possible hets.

If you loan her out to an albino male she will on average produce 50% albinos and 50% for sure hets.

The problem is that looking at it from your side you need half the clutch just to break even. Half of a 50% chance albino clutch is 25% of a clutch of albinos and is the same as if you kept her at home and bred to your het male. In fact it's worse if you get 2nd alternating pick because on average half the time there will be an odd number of albinos so you are giving half an albino up on average.

Where it might be better is on the non-albinos but even that is complicated. Without the loan your het X het breeding would net you 75% of a clutch of 66% hets. That comes out to 50% of a clutch of hets but the problem is that you don't know which ones they are.

With the loan to the albino male and a 50/50 split you would still be looking at 50% of a clutch of hets but again, if you get 2nd pick on average you would be giving up half a het due to the possibility of an odd number. But at least you wouldn't have the 25% of a clutch of non-hets mixed in.

So, I think when considering loaning out your het female to a homozygous male when you already have a het male is barely getting to the possible break even point at a 50/50 split. And, as already mentioned you would likely need to send your female and the breeder should probably get first pick due to the work of breeding and incubation. If you haven't done much of this that could be a good reason to do the loan as well as the chance to outbreed and the avoidance of possible hets. On the down side I'm not sure that moving a female to a new collection right before breeding season doesn't hurt her chances of producing anything and of course there are risks of pathogen transmittal on both sides. That all said, I have done and plan to continue to do a lot of breeding loans, it's just hard to decide what's fair for split.
 
Also, a pastel breeding was mentioned in this post. I'm not sure that this applies to the original poster or not but it is another scenario to think about what a fair split might be.

Here is one way of looking at determining the values for a co-dominant split. You might be tempted to just take the ratio of the market value of the two parents and apply that ratio to the clutch. For example, if an adult pastel male is worth $2,000 and a big proven normal female is worth $400 you have a 5:1 ratio. You could split the clutch with the pastel owner getting 5 picks for every 1 pick of the normal owner. But what about order? Well the breeder should start out but do they get all 5 picks before the female's owner gets the 1st? Pick order makes a lot of difference and in small ball python clutches is at least as important as ratio. Maybe the pastel owner picks 3 and then the normal owner 1 and then they alternate every 5 from then on. It gets complicated but at least the female owner gets a mid pick in the first 5 and has a chance there will be a 3rd pastel in the clutch.

However, I think one thing that gets overlooked in just looking directly at the market value of the animals is the difference in how much of that year's breeding effort each animal is contributing. Neither animal is being sold, it's just contributing part/all of its annual breeding potential to the loan. The female is contributing 100% of her possible annual breeding potential to the loan. She can only produce at best one clutch per season and that clutch is to be split per this loan. There is also a limit to how many females the male can breed in a season but it's more than one so this loan isn't using up all of his annual breeding potential. How much of his potential is being used by the loan is a good question. If he is a young male maybe he can only breed a few females. There have been reports of even young males breeding large (10+) groups of females but also reports that the male's health suffered and in at least one case of a young male dieing after breeding a large number of females. So what is a good average? If you decide that the average male can safely breed 5 females then you could say that the male in a breeding loan contributes 1/5 of his annual breeding effort to the loan so I believe you should then divide his market value by 5 for determining the ratio for the clutch split. With the $2,000 male pastel this comes out to $400 and is the same as the $400 big proven female so works out to a 1:1 split. I suspect many co-dominant male owners might consider this overly generous but I think it could be a win/win if the co-dominant owner didn't have enough females to utilize his male as that extra 1/5 of the breeding potential would have otherwise just been unused and now he/she has first alternating pick of a clutch that is 50% pastel (i.e. probably a couple pastels with a big female). Maybe estimating the average male could breed 5 females was too high and with a lower number the pastel owner comes out even better (but the math works out better in my example values with 5).
 
If you are in florida, i would look up local morph breeders and see what they would agree to. Maybe you can find someone who can breed your female and you can hatch the eggs. I assume you've probably already thought of that, but maybe you can advertise locally and see if there are any other non-"professional" breeders or hobbyists that would like to produce a clutch with another local. That way you would be able to get to know each other a bit and be in contact and make up your own terms. i am located in a bad place for that kind of bargaining, since the closest breeders i have made contact with are in portland or San fransisco, both of which are about ten hours away :( so, i have to get my own breeders. *smallest violin plays sad python song* heh, good luck, and hope you get something nice worked out!
 
Personally I would not lend out my females. I did this once to a friend and the female didn't lay, personally I think moving a female close to breeding season is a bad idea, I also know of breeders who moved homes close to breeding season and then many of their females never took that year. On the other hand my brother brought his pastel over and the little guy has no problem getting busy with the ladies here :) We are also splitting the offspring 50/50. Why should he get more? I could use one of my other males and keep all the babies and he would have none since he had no females to breed it with. I suppose if a person had a mojave or lesser or what ever and was only pairing it with 2 females and said sure bring over your normal and I'll pair them up they would expect more than 50% of the babies, but I think unless it was a lesser or something over 10K range I wouldn't be willing to settle for less than 50% and if I was say giving up a breedable female to someone to use for a lesser or such I would want 1 of the morph babies, let them keep the rest. Especially if you are dealing with a female that gives 5+ eggs a proven breeder. Right send her away they take their pick and give you a normal for the effort and the use of your female.

Like said above I guess it comes down to trusting the person you are doing a breeding loan with. My brother came and lived at my house and took care of my children for 4 days while my husband and I went to vegas, I think I can trust him with my snakes since I trust him with my flesh and blood. I would lend him a male, anyone else, probably not :)
 
CornNut said:
Where it might be better is on the non-albinos but even that is complicated. Without the loan your het X het breeding would net you 75% of a clutch of 66% hets. That comes out to 50% of a clutch of hets but the problem is that you don't know which ones they are.

With the loan to the albino male and a 50/50 split you would still be looking at 50% of a clutch of hets but again, if you get 2nd pick on average you would be giving up half a het due to the possibility of an odd number. But at least you wouldn't have the 25% of a clutch of non-hets mixed in.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I messed up. You actually come up short on hets by loaning your het female to a homozygous male for a 50/50 split. The clutch is expected to be 50% het but your split is only 25% of a clutch of hets (minus 1/2 a het average if 2nd pick). So you are only getting on average half as many hets from the loan as you would from keeping your het and doing het X het at home but at least they are 100% hets and not mixed up in a group of 66% hets.

To me the main reason to do such a loan is outbreeding and if you enjoy the cooperative spirit of a joint project.
 
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