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suddenly sick leo--help!

Deepest condolences - unfortunately, I think many of us have been there and to have no explanation and no opportunity to help makes it that much more painful.

I think its very strong of you to have the necropsy done. I believe my last "mystery" was from irreversible organ failure. This could be the case with your little guy...its so undetectable.

Again, I am so sad for your loss - he was such a beautiful, smiley little guy. :crap: :(
 
well i got the word from the vet on the necropsy--and i'm a little confused. he said that all of his internal organs looked fine except that his liver was very pale and there were excess red blood cells in his intestines which means that he was anemic. he said that this could be caused by internal parasites, but that he didn't find any. he also said that he could have had an infestation of single cell parasites but that those would not be visible after death so he suspects that was the cause of death. i told him that i hatched this leo myself and that he was never in contact with any other geckos and the vet said that he had probably eaten the feces of his parents and if the parents had these single cell parasites then that is how he got them. when i told him that he was never housed with his parents he said, "well then i don't know." ?!?! does this sound right to you all? i don't know a whole lot about the internal workings of leos but it just doesn't sound right to me. how could anemia kill a gecko overnight with no outward signs at all until less than 24 hours before death? and why would it cause the external bruising? i'm very confused at this point. :/
 
if he ate his own fecal material and there were parasites in it that would mean that he already had them, so that doesn't make sense either.
 
Okay...
this kind of thing happens in people too..(nurse here) and when there is "blood in the intestines", it's called a GI bleed. This may be caused by trauma, overgrowth of bacteria, or by administration of 'blood thinners". Anemia can kill overnight if the bleed was severe enough because of resultant lack of oxygen (blood transports this from the lungs to the body and back to the lungs for more oxygen and to get rid of carbon dioxide) and blood volume loss...it would take too long to explain volume loss and its effects here, so I'll use an analogy. Say you have a garden hose, and it is on. It springs a leak. Although you are getting water, you just don't have enough to say wash your car...pressure is too low. This is blood volume loss. Your little critter probably was already in deep shock when you were holding him for the pic; not enough pressure to perfuse his organs and brain. This is the probable reason for the pale liver; the liver gets I think 75% of its blood from what's called the hepatic portal system; goes from the gut to the liver to filter the nutrients the gut puts out. (I think; I'm reaching way back here) and blood loss from the GI tract would thusly DEFINATELY impact the liver. I'll add to this as I think of more...
I am aware that reptiles have different systems...I just am not sure how different they are from our own, but this halo of symptoms in a human is not uncommon...just that you cannot see bruising through the belly in a human.
The bruising also represents blood loss...it could have been the blood present in his intestinal tract you were seeing as bruising...
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since parasites are environmental, I believe I was taught that they can find their way into reptile habitats in many different ways when the temperatures, etc are right for them to thrive (I mean, they're relatively all around us, including some symbiotic relationships and some where the goal of the parasite is to kill the host).

I'd double check the parents/others just to see - many things can go unnoticed in fecals due to parasite life cycles, etc.

Do you think he might have had an internal systemic or viral infection instead of parasites? That seems to be a direction I might go in...if we can get sick, especially if we have a genetic defect or weakness, they can too. (Do leos use white blood cells to fight off evils like mammals do? I can't remember...)
 
Oh, and also I forgot to add that low volume from blood loss causes multiple organ failure...think of the garden hose and pressure.
 
I'm probably regurgitating stuff you already know...just so sorry for your loss - wish I could help with something more insightful as to why.
 
omg, i just thought of something...when you have a problem clotting your blood, either from blood thinners or from some blood dyscrasia, you could leak thru the GI tract as well as get those petechiae (just like those bruises on his belly) on your skin...I wonder if he somehow had a problem with blood clotting brought on by either a deficiency or something else?
 
yvonne, please do keep on posting anything and everything you think of. it really is insightful, at least to me.

what kind of deficiency could cause a problem with blood clotting? would that be anything that i could prevent?

if parasites are environmental and can find their way into a habitat despite our best attempts at keeping them away...that is a really scary thought. since there were no parasites evident in this gecko how likely is it that the vet would find parasites in the others (even if they are present). is the presence of these undetectable single celled parasites a likely cause or do you think that is just the only thing the vet could think of?
 
If they were present in large enough quantities to cause the death of your poor boy, they should be detectable, just maybe not to the equipment at your vet's disposal...he'd have to send samples to a lab. Even with the gut contents, an overgrowth is detectable (C-diff is diagnosed by sending stool to a lab for analysis)
Vitamin K is essential for the clotting process...if you don't have enough of that, you bleed. Fortunately for humans, E-Coli present in our gut (its part of our natural gut flora) makes vitamin K our bodies can use; its a symbiotic relationship.(E-coli infections are caused by contaminated foods which cause an overgrowth) I don't know if reptiles use this same mechanism to convert vitamin K to usable form. I doubt there was anything you could have done to prevent this, especially since all your other animals are flourishing. Did he have a run of antibiotics, or did he eat an insect that came from a different source?
 
no he had never been on antibiotics or any medication. he was eating the same mealworms and occassional crickets dusted with leo ICB dust that all the others eat. there was nothing at all different about his husbandry or food.
 
Going with what LinzM posted earlier, was his location different, like was he near a vent or sink?
 
he was in a rack with all my other leo juvies/babies from this season. his tub was in the second row down. no vents, doors or sinks close by. the door to the room stays closed. there is a small room heater in the room on the floor close to but pointed away from the rack.
 
cookreptiles said:
he also said that he could have had an infestation of single cell parasites but that those would not be visible after death so he suspects that was the cause of death.
Click to expand...

That just seems so strange...As Yvonne pointed out, wouldn't a parasite - regardless of size - be rather apparent upon the sudden death of your poor little guy? mean, there have to be some presence of the parasite die-off, their respiration, their reproductive and digestive cycles, right?? I don't mean to criticize the vet - I'm sure you have a good one - but I just can't believe that there would be no trace on a parasitical infection...single OR multiple celled oranism.

I'm so glad you had the guts to get the necropsy done (I didn't) but I wish, for your sake and our information, that it had brought about some more definative answers...
 
Did you hemoccult the emesis? stupid question...
If you look at the upchuck there on the first page, it looks like it has dark brown material mixed up there with the mealies. I wonder why...it also looks kinda fat, like he threw up part of a blockage. I wonder if he had an irritation in his gut that grew into a stricture or narrower area that ended up bleeding out.
It's not like he was in an area that meant you held him or cared for him first or last...
It's just wierd, all this looks like a rapid and drastic blood loss caused the anemia...not a lack of vitamin K, just because of how quickly it happened. Do you know a nurse or doctor in your area so you can get your hands on a hemoccult testing kit? Maybe your home doctor would help you out here if you took some of that upchuck and his last naturally passed stool in, as it is a simple and cheap test to do.
 
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well the vet that did the necropsy isn't my usual vet and i'm feeling rather critical of his evaluation myself. any time a vet or other professional says, "well i don't know" i feel a bit unsure of their opinion. i took the gecko to this vet because he could do it that same day and i thought that the sooner the better. i had taken a sick lizard to him once years ago and felt that he did diagnose and treat it correctly and so i trusted his knowledge to do the necropsy. i haven't had a necropsy done on any animal before, so this is my first experience with it and with choosing the vet to perform it.
 
I think hemocculture is only used for fecal specimen evaluations - at least in humans...I think they use different testing methodologies for reptiles - Didn't look like there was blood in the regurgitation, but the naked eye can't tell...did you notice anything weird?

(Apologies to Emily for the loss of such a beautiful, home-raised leo...I hope you don't think we're belittling your terrible loss in any way, I'm just interested in what Yvonne and you have to say for educational purposes)
 
I edited my last message there, don't miss it... off to take my car to sick bay, be back in a bit...
 
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