Inquiry Sunshine Serpents

[poomwah]

Sorry you feel that way magic. I've only complained about one thing. I've also thanked daniel on here. I've also never said anything bad about him. I even just got a very decent email from him which I appreciate. I will be the first to recommend sunshine serpents. But somehow being honest about being disappointed about the snakes size means all I do is complain?

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Sorry you feel that way magic. I've only complained about one thing. I've also thanked daniel on here. I've also never said anything bad about him. I even just got a very decent email from him which I appreciate. I will be the first to recommend sunshine serpents. But somehow being honest about being disappointed about the snakes size means all I do is complain?

When it comes to common colubrids, the price doesn't change a whole lot from hatchling to adult. You can find baby yellow rats and full grown adults for the same price range (between $50 and $100 on average but as low as $25). What you paid for is not size related but more the quality of snake. The lineage. Sure you could go buy some other guy's small sized yellow rats for $15 but are they worth it? They likely won't look anywhere near as nice as yours will when she grows up unless you find someone who didn't really know what he had. So from now on don't be too worried about size, as long as you nourish her, she will grow and eventually be all that you want her to be. Watching a snake grow is one of the best parts of this hobby.

 

[Walter1]

When it comes to common colubrids, the price doesn't change a whole lot from hatchling to adult. You can find baby yellow rats and full grown adults for the same price range (between $50 and $100 on average but as low as $25). What you paid for is not size related but more the quality of snake. The lineage. Sure you could go buy some other guy's small sized yellow rats for $15 but are they worth it? They likely won't look anywhere near as nice as yours will when she grows up unless you find someone who didn't really know what he had. So from now on don't be too worried about size, as long as you nourish her, she will grow and eventually be all that you want her to be. Watching a snake grow is one of the best parts of this hobby.

True enough.

 

[poomwah]

When it comes to common colubrids, the price doesn't change a whole lot from hatchling to adult. You can find baby yellow rats and full grown adults for the same price range (between $50 and $100 on average but as low as $25). What you paid for is not size related but more the quality of snake. The lineage. Sure you could go buy some other guy's small sized yellow rats for $15 but are they worth it? They likely won't look anywhere near as nice as yours will when she grows up unless you find someone who didn't really know what he had. So from now on don't be too worried about size, as long as you nourish her, she will grow and eventually be all that you want her to be. Watching a snake grow is one of the best parts of this hobby.

I totally agree that quality and health are the utmost of importance. That's why I chose one of Daniel's yellow rat's and I will NOT dispute the beauty and quality of his animals. When I mentioned paying twice as much for her as I would have spent for a hatchling, I was specifically referring to the price for her compared to the price for one of Daniel's hatchlings, about half for the hatchlings. I wouldn't even compare his snakes with the "typical" 15 dollar "other guy's" snakes.
I also totally agree about how great it is to watch a snake grow. Especially looking forward to what they are going to look like after their next shed. Almost like getting to re-open a present :]

 

[poomwah]

I just want to clarify a few things.
It really bothers me that I can leave two good guy threads on here, leave lots of thanks and praise for Daniel on here, and then there's ONE thing I'm not happy about and that somehow makes me seem like a customer that only wants to complain.
That's ridiculous, especially since my complaint is valid. There are several people on several different forums who have agreed that the snake is extremely small for its age. I'm not the only one who thinks so.
I've been reassured that I was not out of line to expect her to be quite a bit larger. Most people will admit that they would not expect a young snake to be fed only every 7 to 10 days. Which would definitely account for her being smaller than expected. Not just expected by me, but by MANY snake owners. Even someone who posted in this thread sent be a PM and agreed the snake was TINY.
If the price doesn't change a whole lot from hatchling to adult, why were the yearlings from the same dealer 30 dollars more than the hatchlings? Since the hatchlings and yearlings were from the same dealer, wouldn't that extra 30 be due to the size and not the quality and lineage? So does that mean the 35 dollar hatchlings that Daniel sells are lesser quality because they are cheaper? I'm sure they are just as nice as the others he sells
So I'm not a customer that only wants to complain. If you will read the entire post. You will see that I have not hesitated to compliment Daniel and his snakes. I've said nothing bad about him, nor do I plan to.
The TRUTH is, I've had enough people say the snake is considerably smaller than most people would expect and I have every right to be unhappy about that.

 

[DavidBeard]

I agree with Seth.....that snake is unusually small for its age, in my opinion.

 

[Magic]

We thank our friends and customers for their kind words and support. The vast majority of our customers are very happy with their animals and service from us.

Our sales policies are, for the most part, industry standard and can be viewed here on our website:
http://www.sunshineserpents.com/Sales.htm

To address the issue at hand, the customer making the inquiry has been in contact with us since January 21 (around two and a half weeks). He originally inquired about babies we had available. He asked about hatch dates, prey items, prey size, frequency of feeding. He requested photos of all available offspring.

We told him about a yearling female that we were going to offer for sale if he was interested. He was interested in that. We photographed that one and sent him a pic. We also posted an ad for that female a little later.

He sent more questions on the appetite, temperment, and handleability of that snake. In the meantime, we were fielding other emails and questions about the same animals. He sent another email asking about the length of the snake.


It has become clear that he has his heart set on the lone female. We will probably just go ahead and sell him that snake if he is still interested. We do the best we can to satisfy our customers whenever possible and our reputation in the industry and our loyal customer base will support that.

Please feel free to check our website (www.sunshineserpents.com) or contact me ([email protected]) to answer any other questions.
Happy Herping!
Daniel Parker

Poomwah, the whole reason why you're starting to sound like a major pain customer is that the seller has done everything right to try and make you happy. He's allowed you to purchase the snake you clearly had your heart set on, went against his TOS just for you when he had no real reason to, answered all your questions, and truly gone above and beyond.

And now, after a special deal of getting you that one snake YOU picked out and had your heart set on? You're not happy with the "value for your money". What the heck? Daniel clearly states he explained thigs like husbandry, answered questions you had about feeding, etc.

And to top it off, instead of going to the seller with your concerns about a yearling's size, you're posting on forums and asking other keepers about a snake that they didn't feed or breed to ascertain whether or not you got ripped off.

I think you're going to find yourself on a lot of breeder's "do not sell to" lists.

 

[poomwah]

He offered the snake for sale at an agreed upon price. Then he got some males that he admitted are harder to get rid of. He did not go above and beyond. His terms of service were never mentioned. When the original offer was made, there was no mention ANYWHERE that males were even available, let alone required. He had no reason to? He had every reason to. He honored the original offer. Is that not reason enough ?
A special deal??? I responded to an ad for a particular animal. The ad was not for several snakes and I picked one out. The ad was for a particular animal. It was a special deal because I was allowed to get the animal advertised in the ad?
I guess by you putting it in bold letters that I asked about the size of the animal is supposed to mean something? Yes, I did ask about the size of the snake. That is true, what is also true is that I never got an answer to that question. Yes, he did give me a lot of answers about husbandry and feeding. I've already said I'm thankful for that.
I did go to the seller with my concerns about the yearlings size.
Enough people have already commented on this, that there was no special deal made, that Daniel did the right thing and honored the deal he made. Like Discern had pointed out, he looked at a slew of ads and NONE of them said anything about not selling lone females. Daniel did the right thing and lived up to his offer.
No offense, but if I get put on a "don't sell" list because I don't consider getting whats offered special treatment, and that I voice my discontent about the size of an animal that MOST other people agree is smaller than what I should have expected, if a dealer sees that as a problem, I'll gladly be on their no sell list.

 

[poomwah]

He offered the snake for sale at an agreed upon price. Then he got some males that he admitted are harder to get rid of. He did not go above and beyond. His terms of service were never mentioned. When the original offer was made, there was no mention ANYWHERE that males were even available, let alone required. He had no reason to? He had every reason to. He honored the original offer. Is that not reason enough ?
A special deal??? I responded to an ad for a particular animal. The ad was not for several snakes and I picked one out. The ad was for a particular animal. It was a special deal because I was allowed to get the animal advertised in the ad?
I guess by you putting it in bold letters that I asked about the size of the animal is supposed to mean something? Yes, I did ask about the size of the snake. That is true, what is also true is that I never got an answer to that question. Yes, he did give me a lot of answers about husbandry and feeding. I've already said I'm thankful for that.
I did go to the seller with my concerns about the yearlings size.
Enough people have already commented on this, that there was no special deal made, that Daniel did the right thing and honored the deal he made. Like Discern had pointed out, he looked at a slew of ads and NONE of them said anything about not selling lone females. Daniel did the right thing and lived up to his offer.
No offense, but if I get put on a "don't sell" list because I don't consider getting whats offered special treatment, and that I voice my discontent about the size of an animal that MOST other people agree is smaller than what I should have expected, if a dealer sees that as a problem, I'll gladly be on their no sell list.

 

[RossCA]

He offered the snake for sale at an agreed upon price. Then he got some males that he admitted are harder to get rid of. He did not go above and beyond. His terms of service were never mentioned. When the original offer was made, there was no mention ANYWHERE that males were even available, let alone required. He had no reason to? He had every reason to. He honored the original offer. Is that not reason enough ?
A special deal??? I responded to an ad for a particular animal. The ad was not for several snakes and I picked one out. The ad was for a particular animal. It was a special deal because I was allowed to get the animal advertised in the ad?
I guess by you putting it in bold letters that I asked about the size of the animal is supposed to mean something? Yes, I did ask about the size of the snake. That is true, what is also true is that I never got an answer to that question. Yes, he did give me a lot of answers about husbandry and feeding. I've already said I'm thankful for that.
I did go to the seller with my concerns about the yearlings size.
Enough people have already commented on this, that there was no special deal made, that Daniel did the right thing and honored the deal he made. Like Discern had pointed out, he looked at a slew of ads and NONE of them said anything about not selling lone females. Daniel did the right thing and lived up to his offer.
No offense, but if I get put on a "don't sell" list because I don't consider getting whats offered special treatment, and that I voice my discontent about the size of an animal that MOST other people agree is smaller than what I should have expected, if a dealer sees that as a problem, I'll gladly be on their no sell list.

He never answered your question about the size of the snake, but did you be sure to get the answer to that question before you sent him the money?

 

[poomwah]

Did I be sure to get the answer before I sent the money? Obviously not, because he never answered that question.
Why did I send the money without the question being answered?
ONE reason, the BOI. I trusted what I read on here.
There were no bad tales about SS or Daniel, so there was no reason to suspect that I'd get a grossly undersized snake.

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

You're happy! You're not happy. You're satisfied! You're disappointed.


Well? Which one is it? Because you're sending mixed signals here and you keep going back and forth from happy, complacent posts to passive aggressive, dissappointment posts. You are either happy with the transaction, or you're not. That is pretty simple. Have you even tried to reach a resolution before posting all this size-this, length-that stuff? Have you consulted SS directly? Or are you just thinking out loud on a forum?

 

[poomwah]

You're happy! You're not happy. You're satisfied! You're disappointed.


Well? Which one is it? Because you're sending mixed signals here and you keep going back and forth from happy, complacent posts to passive aggressive, dissappointment posts. You are either happy with the transaction, or you're not. That is pretty simple. Have you even tried to reach a resolution before posting all this size-this, length-that stuff? Have you consulted SS directly? Or are you just thinking out loud on a forum?

Sorry for the mixed signals. All of your questions have been answered in previous posts. Happy or not happy is not as simple as you imply. There are many parts of the transaction that I am happy with. One that I'm not happy or satisfied with. You don't have to be completely happy with something or completely unhappy with it.
I am happy with the quality of Daniel's stock. I'm happy with Daniel's correspondence. I am happy with the animals condition and behavior. I am unhappy with the size of the animal for its age and price. There is a reason I spent the extra money to get a larger animal. It was a very important factor in the decision to buy a yearling as opposed to a hatchling. Had I known the snake would be this small I would not have bought it.
As I said before, I have consulted directly with Daniel. I also posted on here as a source for info and experience of others. This thread was for obtaining info and opinions. I first brought the size subject up to see if my expectations had been unreasonable. Obviously a few think my expectations were too lofty, but obviously many agree with me.
So, to sum up, I am very happy to finally have a yellow rat snake, I am happy to have purchased one of high quality, I am disappointed that I spent more money to get an animal that most people (myself included) would expect to be much larger and that most people would never expect to be so small. It should not be surprising that I would be disappointed by something so different from my expectations (again, not lofty expectations, but expectations that would be shared by many in this situation)

 

[RossCA]

Thinking back, I had a similar experience with a yearling Cal king I bought from someone else. It was a lot thinner and shorter than I expected. I did complain to the seller about it and he said it was a late starter. Well, he should have told me that to begin with. He said he would make things right, which could mean anything. I looked back at the photo and realized the snake was on the thin side, but I think the pattern was so appealing at the time, I hadn't really noticed its size. I never asked him for its length either. I felt like I chose it, I overlooked its weight, I should just keep it and learn from the experience. That's me, that's how I think. Looking back at that picture of your snake, I don't blame you for being disappointed with the size. Do what you have to do, but also try to learn from this transaction. Don't assume anything when it comers to size. If the size really matters, get a recent photo of it in someones hands or next to something for size reference. I'm saying this respectfully. I plan on doing the same thing next time, so I don't have the same problem I had. We should be able to expect breeders to tell us up front if a snake is on the small side, but since they don't always, we need to make sure for our selves. At least that's how I look at it. Sometimes you have to think for other people, because they don't know what you're thinking.

 

[Edwardo]

Of course you have a right to be dissapointed with the size of the snake, but you are partly at fault.

Next time you purchase a snake from someone, get all your questions answered to your satisfaction, if you dont get an answer to a question, ask again, insist on knowing, if you never get the answer, and left hanging, dont send the money.
The BOI is just a general guideline.

 

[poomwah]

Excellent point Ross, and I definitely will take that advice in the future.
I could have insisted on getting the answer about her size before purchase. But I was told that if I wanted her I had to buy her right then because they were packing for a reptile show and if I waited for an answer , she would be going to that the next day and probably sold.

Ewardo, its kinda funny actually. You see it a lot on the BOI, where if someone doesn't do their research and then posts on here, they get told it was there fault for not checking the BOI before making their purchase. I posted on here and had so many people raving about how great SS is, and how honest and straightforward, who wouldn't trust them at that point, you know what I mean?
Not to mention, telling me I should have been more insistent about my questions might not be the best route when it seems to some on here like I had already asked too many questions.
But, I guess its moot at this point, on this very thread there have been enough people on this thread agreeing about the snake being smaller than expected that I know it's not just my opinion. Daniel has already emailed that there is nothing wrong with the snakes size as they "grow them up at similar rates that I observe in wild rat snakes "
With as many people backed up my opinion, I'm not going to change mine. Since he is an experienced professional, so his opinion is not going to change.
We just disagree, nothing I can do about that.

 

[Magic]

On this very thread there have also been enough people telling you that your yearling yellow rat is a normal size for age, too.

You just choose not to listen.

How sad I am for you.


If you wanted an adult, then you should fork over the cash for one. This entire thread has your concerns about money all over it. First you wanted to buy a snake and then couldn't afford one-so you had to wait. Then you got mad because you couldn't afford the money to comply with the breeder's stated TOS and buy a pair. Then you get the "snake you fell in love with" and now you don't think she's worth the money you paid because you feel she should be larger.

You are inexperienced. That's not the issue. We all start off that way. However, you deliberately REFUSE to accept anything other than what you feel is the case. That's not how you learn. Daniel (and the other colubrid breeders here, including myself) could have been a wealth of info for you. But not when you refuse to listen.

 

[poomwah]

On this very thread there have also been enough people telling you that your yearling yellow rat is a normal size for age, too.

You just choose not to listen.

How sad I am for you.


If you wanted an adult, then you should fork over the cash for one. This entire thread has your concerns about money all over it. First you wanted to buy a snake and then couldn't afford one-so you had to wait. Then you got mad because you couldn't afford the money to comply with the breeder's stated TOS and buy a pair. Then you get the "snake you fell in love with" and now you don't think she's worth the money you paid because you feel she should be larger.

You are inexperienced. That's not the issue. We all start off that way. However, you deliberately REFUSE to accept anything other than what you feel is the case. That's not how you learn. Daniel (and the other colubrid breeders here, including myself) could have been a wealth of info for you. But not when you refuse to listen.

I did listen, yes, some said the snake was the right size, I disagree. What of those that said the snake is small? or those that said they understand why I was disappointed? Are you saying I shouldn't listen to them? You only want me to listen to those that agree with you. Why is it that YOU refuse to listen to anything they say?
You say I should have forked out the money for an adult, but this thread says theres no difference in the price of a baby and an adult.
Money can be an issue, I had the budget to buy a snake, could have bought a 25 dollar snake, could have bought a 250 dollar snake, then the pipes froze and burst. That killed my snake budget for a few weeks. After those few weeks, I was back in the same place, I could afford a snake. I didn't get mad because I couldn't afford the buyer's TOS. The buyers TOS had not been specified. Again, read back about how many ads there were that said NOTHING about having to buy more than one snake. Yes, money matters, and I don't want to spend extra to buy a second snake, then buy materials to build an enclosure, find a place to put an enclosure.
My inexperience is not with snakes in general or colubrids even, its with yellow rat snakes. My experience with rat snakes is what told me to expect a larger snake than what I got.
It has become evident Magic, that YOU don't listen. This has gotten so twisted when in reality it was so simple :

AD is posted on KS for ONE female yearling yellow rat. NOTHING is said anywhere on the ad about males being available, NOTHING is said on ad that the female will not be sold by herself. NOTHING.
Arrangements are made to purchase animal, when dealer is told that customer want animal in ad, then, and only then does dealer inform customer that he doesn't want to sell lone female.
Dealer decides to honor ORIGINAL agreement.
Customer pays for snake. Customer gets snake. Customer appreciated correspondence and advice from dealer.
Customer is unhappy with size of snake. Dealer says snake is correct size.
Some people agree with customer, some people agree with dealer. MANY people twist the details into something else : it was never about the dealer bending over backwards to change or violate his TOS to make a person happy, it was never about a customer being given a special deal. It was purely about a dealer keeping an agreement and selling an animal at the advertised price.
You are one that agrees with Daniel about the size of the animal. Because I disagree with you, I'm wrong and inexperienced.
Are the others who agree with me on here wrong and inexperienced as well?
Do you feel sad for them too?
This is what makes an otherwise invaluable resource so flawed.
The BOI is a good resource, it could be GREAT. It's not because this high school type nonsense : good breeders get a following, which is good, but it becomes a clique. I've seen many threads were someone is almost vilified just because they go against the norm. If you have a problem with an established breeder, it can't be the breeder who did something , it must be you. If the breeder did make a mistake and does the right thing. they didn't really do the right thing, instead they are somehow glorified for going "above and beyond".
I've unfortunately seen this quite often on this forum, that is what's sad.

 

[Magic]

So you are unhappy with your purchase. Whatever the reason you are unhappy with your purchase. The reason doesn't matter.

Did you ask to return her?

Tell the buyer you wanted to return her and get your purchase price back?

What did the seller say?

 

[poomwah]

sorry, forgot to mention
how many people who buy/keep/raise captive bred snakes would expect a captive bred snake to be of similar size to its wild counterpart.
Our experience with CB reptiles shows us that what to be expected is for a captive bred snake to be considerably larger than its wild counterpart.
Don't deny this just because you have formed a bad opinion of me.