Inquiry Sunshine Serpents

[Mystic Exotics]

While the snake may be small for it's age, it looks healthy. It does not show signs of being underfed (triangular shape).

I disagree with the price of hatchlings being the same as juvenile/adults. In my experience, regardless of species, the older they are, (especially females) the higher the price, because people want something that is ready to breed or closer to ready to breed than a hatchling. Many people do not want to wait for the baby to grow up, before they can breed it.

I have had babies from the same clutch grow at various rates. They can be fed the exact same schedule as siblings, and some grow much faster, some grow slower. I've had some babies that have been more than twice the size difference, at a year old, that have been fed on the same schedule.

Images can show differently, depending on the camera, lighting, and even depending on where the animal is as far as shed schedule.
A freshly shed animal is going to look much better than one that is getting close to starting the shed process.
Sometimes, images just turn out really well, by chance. Of course sellers are going to use a good image of that animal for sale. (I'm not talking about photos that are intentionally altered via photoshop, which does not seem to be the case here).

I understand how things can change, during the time you are talking to a prospective customer. As a seller, it is not uncommon for someone to send several messages inquiring about an animal, and you think they are interested, only to have them just stop talking to you about it. (I'm not saying this is you, but it happens more than some people realize).
During the time of back and forth emails, there could be other people inquiring on the same animal.
I do not consider an animal sold, until payment is made, or a deposit is made for the animal.

Did you have an agreement in writing, before he had males come available and changed it to sell the female as a pair? (Which is common when a seller is male heavy, it is harder to sell lone males).

As mentioned in a previous post, many captive animals are over fed. The snake you purchased looks healthy, albeit smaller than you expected.

 

[poomwah]

thanks for the post Heather
good point on the shed process. I can't say for sure, but she looks like she has shed recently. she has "that look" to her skin, not sure how to describe it, but that look they get afterwards, like a clarity or depth of detail in their skin. Does that make sense. I know you guys know what I'm talking about, give me a good way to describe it, LOL
I totally understand using a flattering photo of an animal, it makes total sense, but not when it comes out looking so good that the real animal can't live up to it.
I definitely agree that the pic does NOT look altered.
Not being a breeder or dealer, I can't say what they go through with prospective "customers" but even just from the nightmare of selling something on craigslist, with all the people wanting what you have and never showing up, I can only imagine the nightmare it must be for breeders/dealers and the people that must waste their time.
I didn't expect him to consider the animal sold until I actually paid. When I informed him of the pipes breaking, I told him I'd keep in touch and that if the snake was still available in a few weeks I'd buy her. I never expected him to hold her.
We didn't have a written agreement. I told him I was ready to buy, he then pointed out that he got some males in and sent me pictures of them. After looking at the pics, we decided we still wanted the female. That is when he told me that he didn't want to sell her separately.
I also agree that many captive animals are over fed. I'd actually take it a step further and say probably MOST captive bred animals are over fed.
but I still can't accept that this snake is of "normal" or expected size for what it is.
George is an example. He has been fed once a week, moving up in prey size accordingly . And I've seen many that were quite bit bigger than he is, and most of those were fed significantly more than I feed George. I've also seen some that were a bit smaller than George that were fed the same amount. While this is my first yellow, it is by far not my first north american rat. In my experience, George is about average. That's why I used him as an example for the comparison.

 

[Walter1]

thanks for the post Heather
good point on the shed process. I can't say for sure, but she looks like she has shed recently. she has "that look" to her skin, not sure how to describe it, but that look they get afterwards, like a clarity or depth of detail in their skin. Does that make sense. I know you guys know what I'm talking about, give me a good way to describe it, LOL
I totally understand using a flattering photo of an animal, it makes total sense, but not when it comes out looking so good that the real animal can't live up to it.
I definitely agree that the pic does NOT look altered.
Not being a breeder or dealer, I can't say what they go through with prospective "customers" but even just from the nightmare of selling something on craigslist, with all the people wanting what you have and never showing up, I can only imagine the nightmare it must be for breeders/dealers and the people that must waste their time.
I didn't expect him to consider the animal sold until I actually paid. When I informed him of the pipes breaking, I told him I'd keep in touch and that if the snake was still available in a few weeks I'd buy her. I never expected him to hold her.
We didn't have a written agreement. I told him I was ready to buy, he then pointed out that he got some males in and sent me pictures of them. After looking at the pics, we decided we still wanted the female. That is when he told me that he didn't want to sell her separately.
I also agree that many captive animals are over fed. I'd actually take it a step further and say probably MOST captive bred animals are over fed.
but I still can't accept that this snake is of "normal" or expected size for what it is.
George is an example. He has been fed once a week, moving up in prey size accordingly . And I've seen many that were quite bit bigger than he is, and most of those were fed significantly more than I feed George. I've also seen some that were a bit smaller than George that were fed the same amount. While this is my first yellow, it is by far not my first north american rat. In my experience, George is about average. That's why I used him as an example for the comparison.

How about "velvety" as a first impression/description of the recently-shed rat snake??? That's how they look to me. Apart from that, it cannot be denied that your snake is not 1.5 yrs old as claimed by the vendor. It may well be- perhaps it was over-wintered, lightly fed, genetics, etc. Likewise, it can not be denied that that your snake is not the age claimed (I would begin with honest mistake by vendor).

My earlier post stands for what is typical for most keepers of N.A. rat snakes, and I do not power feed. It is at the improbable ut plausible low end.

So, without an explanation by Daniel to explain the significant discrepancy between age and size, then the probability shifts to an incorrect statement (accidental or intentional, no other choice) by the vendor. From my stand point, that's where we (whoever is reading this) are.

Separate from that matter, I am fond of that group of snakes. A reason for me to jump in. Regardless of unpleasent background story, I'm happy you keep snakes!

Walter

 

[poomwah]

ahhh yes, velvety works, velvety with pearlescent belly scales.
I had initially chalked it up to a mistake, that's why I questioned Daniel about the size of the snake and its hatch date, and asked if he was sure he sent the right snake because the snake was so small.
He responded that he was unsure of the exact hatch date, but that it was in the last quarter of 2012, probably august or september. He also said that the snake's size was normal for its age.
I appreciate so much that you specifically said "significant discrepancy" . I'm nothing short of baffled by how many people on here say the snake is normal weight, or " a little small" . I cannot fathom how the significance of the discrepancy can be so elusive to so many people.
I can't believe how many people would have opened the box and so, oh perfect, or oh a little small but I'm ok with it. How on earth could anyone realistically expect the snake offered to be what it really turned out to be?

 

[Walter1]

ahhh yes, velvety works, velvety with pearlescent belly scales.
I had initially chalked it up to a mistake, that's why I questioned Daniel about the size of the snake and its hatch date, and asked if he was sure he sent the right snake because the snake was so small.
He responded that he was unsure of the exact hatch date, but that it was in the last quarter of 2012, probably august or september. He also said that the snake's size was normal for its age.
I appreciate so much that you specifically said "significant discrepancy" . I'm nothing short of baffled by how many people on here say the snake is normal weight, or " a little small" . I cannot fathom how the significance of the discrepancy can be so elusive to so many people.
I can't believe how many people would have opened the box and so, oh perfect, or oh a little small but I'm ok with it. How on earth could anyone realistically expect the snake offered to be what it really turned out to be?

Pearlescent belly scales- Yup.

Yes, you did appoach it as a mistake. An approach I look to be in with. I was thinking out loud.

As it relates to this topic, how goes the feeding? My unsolicited advice is to provide her, or any N.A. rat snake, with a newspaper substrate, untippable water bowl to drink from and of course occasionally poop in, and most of all, most all!!! a suitably-sized clay pot with the bottom hole enlarged. They want snug, like a tree cavity. She will sit with her nose peeking out when she's hungry. Food on the pot lip and it will be gone directly. Should you decide to feed her live (I don't except when new born for a bit), she can withdraw safely should she not be hungry. Feed her as I mentioned earlier and increase size accrdingly. Feed, poop, wait a few days, feed poop......and enjoy your ride and joy.

 

[Walter1]

Pearlescent belly scales- Yup.

Yes, you did appoach it as a mistake. An approach I look to be in with. I was thinking out loud.

As it relates to this topic, how goes the feeding? My unsolicited advice is to provide her, or any N.A. rat snake, with a newspaper substrate, untippable water bowl to drink from and of course occasionally poop in, and most of all, most all!!! a suitably-sized clay pot with the bottom hole enlarged. They want snug, like a tree cavity. She will sit with her nose peeking out when she's hungry. Food on the pot lip and it will be gone directly. Should you decide to feed her live (I don't except when new born for a bit), she can withdraw safely should she not be hungry. Feed her as I mentioned earlier and increase size accrdingly. Feed, poop, wait a few days, feed poop......and enjoy your ride and joy.

pride and joy. Dadburn that "p".

 

[poomwah]

thanks for the advice, funny you mentioned clay pots, you know those little tiny ones that they use for herbs on your kitchen counter? She fits in those rather well. Tomorrow will be 5 days since her last feeding attempt, so I'll be trying again then.

 

[poomwah]

I'm trying to get a hold of Daniel to try to resolve this, but I'm not getting anything back except a message saying they are out of the office, but they are still updating their pictures and stock on their facebook page as well as answering messages on there.

 

[poomwah]

I received an email from Daniel. He maintains that these snakes are NORMAL size for HIS colony and this is the way he's been breeding them for years.
So it comes down to, as we've established, his snakes are bred and kept substantially smaller than what most would be expected.
This obviously is his choice and right, and it obviously works for him. It is undeniable however, that something like that should have been openly discussed. If his snakes are noticably smaller than the average in the hobby, he should be telling that up front so the customer knows what to expect.
His "solution" was the typical, I can pay to ship the snake back and get a refund on my purchase price. So I'd be out 100 dollars and have nothing to show for it except the headaches and heartaches, and he'd have the animal to resell .
HOW on earth is that ethical? Had this important information been disclosed, I would NOT have bought the animal. Why am I the one to lose 100 dollars in this deal?

 

[laterob]

Seth, if you are unhappy, the shipping should be on you. If there is a problem, shipping should be in the seller. You view it as a problem, seller doesn't.

What would you like to see out if this, like $50 or what?

 

[Teatime]

I received an email from Daniel. He maintains that these snakes are NORMAL size for HIS colony and this is the way he's been breeding them for years.
So it comes down to, as we've established, his snakes are bred and kept substantially smaller than what most would be expected.
This obviously is his choice and right, and it obviously works for him. It is undeniable however, that something like that should have been openly discussed. If his snakes are noticably smaller than the average in the hobby, he should be telling that up front so the customer knows what to expect.
His "solution" was the typical, I can pay to ship the snake back and get a refund on my purchase price. So I'd be out 100 dollars and have nothing to show for it except the headaches and heartaches, and he'd have the animal to resell .
HOW on earth is that ethical? Had this important information been disclosed, I would NOT have bought the animal. Why am I the one to lose 100 dollars in this deal?

I absolutely would feel the same way in that the snake seems to be much smaller than the norm for her age. However, I wouldn't at all see it as losing money on the deal. Maybe a loss of time if you were expecting to breed her, but then you would've probably inquired about the size and weight of the snake from the get-go, which you really didn't seem too interested in. The seller did mention that you asked about what his snakes were eating, and the length of this particular snake before buying her. Was his measurement not accurate?

Rat snakes live for many years. You've got plenty of time to feed her, watching her grow steadily until she reaches adult size. What is the big hurry? You made a huge show out of having your heart set on this particular snake from the beginning. But I guess she wasn't worth the price after all?

 

[poomwah]

Seth, if you are unhappy, the shipping should be on you. If there is a problem, shipping should be in the seller. You view it as a problem, seller doesn't.

What would you like to see out if this, like $50 or what?

Why should the shipping be on me because the seller neglected to provide important information? you say "if there is a problem" there is a problem, that should be obvious by now. I'm not the only not the only one who views it as a problem.

what would I like to see out of this? I would like to see my family not disappointed and have what they thought they were getting. But that obviously isn't happening.
A reasonable expectation would be a refund in the amount of the difference between the price I paid and a the price of a snake this size. A typical hatchling.

Teatime, the reason I look at is as a waste of money, is because I DID inquire about the size of the animal, as said before. I've explained earlier in this thread WHY the size was of such importance. The information was not inaccurate, it was NOT provided, instead we were told that we had to make a decision RIGHT THEN or they would take her to a reptile show the next day and sell her. Since we had bee given NO indication of ANY kind that the line of snakes were significantly smaller than normal, we had NO way of knowing that we should expect anything less than an average sized yearling, for which I paid extra.
"What is the big hurry? You made a huge show out of having your heart set on this particular snake from the beginning. But I guess she wasn't worth the price after all?"
The big hurry has been explained in detail. As is the reason that she wasn't worth the price. I can't work with snakes this small, there was no reason for us to expect her to be so different. She's a 2012 and the size of most 2013's. So no, she was definitely not worth the extra price.
If you want to get picky, if the picture had shown the big colorless patch on her snout, we wouldn't have bought her either.
So, things that we had no way of knowing , that is NOT the buyers fault.

 

[RichsBallPythons]

Why should the shipping be on me because the seller neglected to provide important information? you say "if there is a problem" there is a problem, that should be obvious by now. I'm not the only not the only one who views it as a problem.

what would I like to see out of this? I would like to see my family not disappointed and have what they thought they were getting. But that obviously isn't happening.
A reasonable expectation would be a refund in the amount of the difference between the price I paid and a the price of a snake this size. A typical hatchling.

Teatime, the reason I look at is as a waste of money, is because I DID inquire about the size of the animal, as said before. I've explained earlier in this thread WHY the size was of such importance. The information was not inaccurate, it was NOT provided, instead we were told that we had to make a decision RIGHT THEN or they would take her to a reptile show the next day and sell her. Since we had bee given NO indication of ANY kind that the line of snakes were significantly smaller than normal, we had NO way of knowing that we should expect anything less than an average sized yearling, for which I paid extra.
"What is the big hurry? You made a huge show out of having your heart set on this particular snake from the beginning. But I guess she wasn't worth the price after all?"
The big hurry has been explained in detail. As is the reason that she wasn't worth the price. I can't work with snakes this small, there was no reason for us to expect her to be so different. She's a 2012 and the size of most 2013's. So no, she was definitely not worth the extra price.
If you want to get picky, if the picture had shown the big colorless patch on her snout, we wouldn't have bought her either.
So, things that we had no way of knowing , that is NOT the buyers fault.

It is on you to ship back, You paid to have product shipped to you. Seller provided product alive and healthy. Cause its smaller then what YOU wanted does not constitute the seller to have to shell out money to have it shipped BACK to you. Then he has to Quarantine it as well prolonging his turnover.

You Cannot make the seller pay for it to be returned if you are unhappy with its size when its Healthy! Especially when no size was disclosed just age!

 

[poomwah]

Seth, if you are unhappy, the shipping should be on you. If there is a problem, shipping should be in the seller. You view it as a problem, seller doesn't.

What would you like to see out if this, like $50 or what?

and just to clarify, no, I would not expect ANYONE to refund 50 dollars on a 65 dollar snake. Half that, and an admission that customers should be told that they are significantly smaller than most people would expect would not be at all out of line though

 

[AbsoluteApril]

You Cannot make the seller pay for it to be returned if you are unhappy with its size when its Healthy! Especially when no size was disclosed just age!

If the size was that big of an issue where it would have been a 'no sale' if you were aware beforehand that is was on the smaller end of the scale, then insist on being given than info or a photo with something for size reference before sending funds; if not given the info, be willing to pass on it. Otherwise this seems like buyers remorse and you'll need to pay to ship it back for a refund of the snake's purchase price.
just my opinion.

 

[Ed Clark]

this seems like buyers remorse and you'll need to pay to ship it back for a refund of the snake's purchase price.
just my opinion.

Thats exactly the way I see it.

 

[poomwah]

If the size was that big of an issue where it would have been a 'no sale' if you were aware beforehand that is was on the smaller end of the scale, then insist on being given than info or a photo with something for size reference before sending funds; if not given the info, be willing to pass on it. Otherwise this seems like buyers remorse and you'll need to pay to ship it back for a refund of the snake's purchase price.
just my opinion.

buyer's remorse is when you regret making a purchase, not because the item isn't what you expected.
Like has been said many times, a buyer should not have to ask if a breeders snakes are unusually small for the breed.
And as I've said before, rather than giving us an answer on the size, we were told we had to decide RIGHT THEN.

 

[RichsBallPythons]

buyer's remorse is when you regret making a purchase, not because the item isn't what you expected.
Like has been said many times, a buyer should not have to ask if a breeders snakes are unusually small for the breed.
And as I've said before, rather than giving us an answer on the size, we were told we had to decide RIGHT THEN.

Umm You just described Buyers remorse. You are unsatisfied cause the Picture made you think snake was larger. He obviously feeds his snakes enough to keep them healthy and thriving. Not stuff them full so they are 100 gram monsters in a year.

If you didn't get the size then WHY send payment. You fell in love with this animal right! Or was that just a shot as some reverse psychology to get the seller to feel sorry and just sell her to you. If you didnt feel comfortable sending RIGHT then till your answer to size was answered, why did you!

Buyers Remorse is what you are doing and its disrespectful.

 

[poomwah]

It is on you to ship back, You paid to have product shipped to you. Seller provided product alive and healthy. Cause its smaller then what YOU wanted does not constitute the seller to have to shell out money to have it shipped BACK to you. Then he has to Quarantine it as well prolonging his turnover.

You Cannot make the seller pay for it to be returned if you are unhappy with its size when its Healthy! Especially when no size was disclosed just age!

You are missing the point, the size is not what is generally expected by rat snake owners. Not just ME. The size SHOULD have been disclosed. Especially since it was so much smaller than MOST would expect. The snake was not represented honestly.
Rather than provide the size information requested, we were rushed into a decision by the dealer.

again, its not just ME who thinks the snake is small
http://www.herpcenter.com/ratsnakes/52335-how-big-17-month-old-yellow-rat.html
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gene...big-should-17-month-old-yellow-rat-snake.html
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/1022373-any-yellow-rat-snake-owners.html

so this isn't ONE person thinking the snake would be something different , then being wrong . I had EVERY reason to expect a vastly larger snake.

There should be some sort of compensation offered for this

 

[poomwah]

Umm You just described Buyers remorse. You are unsatisfied cause the Picture made you think snake was larger. He obviously feeds his snakes enough to keep them healthy and thriving. Not stuff them full so they are 100 gram monsters in a year.

If you didn't get the size then WHY send payment. You fell in love with this animal right! Or was that just a shot as some reverse psychology to get the seller to feel sorry and just sell her to you. If you didnt feel comfortable sending RIGHT then till your answer to size was answered, why did you!

Buyers Remorse is what you are doing and its disrespectful.

We fell in love with a picture that looked so different from the actual animal that some people on THIS very forum thought it was not the same snake. I believe it is the same snake in the picture, but it is a very dishonest representation, the snake looks bright and vibrant in the pics and the pic does not show the large colorless patch on its snout. We sent payment because we decided to trust the breeder. Again, why would anyone to expect the snakes to be so small. We aren't talking about monsters, we're talking average sized 17 month old snakes.
I'm upset that I bought a snake that was misrepresented. that is not disprepectful at all.
My family was very excited and expected the snake to look like the one in the picture, THAT is why we sent money before the questions were answered, because we were specifically told that if we waited, she would be GONE.