CheriS said:
I am not sure it is allowed to post it as it has many emails in it to and from other people that he included when he sent it out to me and others on his mailing lists/customers, but they are partial ones and things he added his comments too, but it looks like they are theirs. Many of the peoples in it, have already denied they said the things that it is made to appear they did.
And it is not just one mailing with 17 pages, there are several more with dozens of pages eacg plus a dozen to me. ( that are not very nice
)
I have an email out to my attorney asking him if it is okay to link from a URL I put it on, that will save a heck of a lot of wasted space on this thread and I am not so sure it will help answer her questions any more as she already listed the letter to Dr Wentz he send out stating his babies tested positive.
I will post Dr Jacobson's letter here:
We will respond in general, yet the mob mentally rears it's ugly head. False rumors, untrue acusations, and innuedos. What an industry.
Sunshinedragons...A Breeders Choice
The True facts and Quotes or paraphrases from Universities and top Scientist
Unfortunately we feel a Misguided lady, possible other motives & with little credibility left, >>Would rather fight to be right>> Than do what's right<<. That appears to us to be a Vicious Motivating factor.
We all know how difficult it is to even respond to unfounded rumors and innuendos.
Below is our current research to date, and we don’t stop at one doctor or University to give us credibility. WE have nothing to prove to anybody except ourselves, and to our selves we have nothing to prove.
The responses from our customer about the size and health of our dragons, as well as our Integrity is unquestionable by anyone.
Having her authority and knowledge challenged we expected her to take all steps she was able to prove she was and is still the Queen in control. Yet we believe the Emperoress wears no clothes.
We have contacted several top Veterinarians, Hospitals, and our research is not finished as we said before.
Yet one Scientist is not enough for us regardless of who it may be. There are many top Respected Quality Veterinarians we are now contacting as well as Universities, and Veterinarian Hospitals.
We have no reason to believe than any of our dragons have the Adeno Disease!
We will continue to research this issue with more than one veterinarian, or hospital to verify the potential affects of the variety of virus’s/Potential Illnesses, including Adenovirus.
The IVY League University Of Penn has one of the top rated Veterinarian schools in the country. They have made no formal statement about its correspondence and statements with Sunshinedragons, or the various contacts, and recommendations it gave Sunshinedragons.
In fact they gave us several, as well as many other Highly Reputable & Prominent Veterinarians to contact.
You can read them below as well as their opinions. Science changes and so do theories. The world is not flat! Theories and results are not exact.
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: Disapointed..Like two completely different meetings??? Sunshinedragons
Date: 10/23/2006 10:27:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: Charities316
To:
[email protected]
Suzanne,
Please scroll down to see the highlighted facts Karen sent us!!!
In a message dated 10/17/2006 5:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Dear Bruce
First, let me say we all work as a group and even though I could not make it
down to the appointment on Monday, I knew what Nicole was going to say and what
she was going to write and I back her and agree with her 100%.
.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 10/26/2006 9:18:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Charities316 writes:
In a message dated 10/17/2006 5:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Dear Bruce
First, let me say we all work as a group and even though I could not make it
down to the appointment on Monday, I knew what Nicole was going to say and what
she was going to write and I back her and agree with her 100%.
Here are givens that we can say are fact:
>You are a passionate and compassionate advocate for your beardies and your business.
>You are trying to do what no one has ever done.
>You care about enriching and improving more than just the beardies in your charge; you strive to improve the lots of all reptiles.
>We love people like this and we try very hard to work with them. We give away
our services to these people as much as we can b/c we only want the best for
these animals. And it is a great way to teach our students.
Neither Nicole or I are researchers in adenovirus disease or biology. Active
researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of
this virus.
Neither Nicole or I know enough about adenovirus to write a letter that has any
teeth to it. *******The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that experts are confused.
Here are adenovirus facts:
It MAY BE in many colonies of beared dragons in the US.
It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.
No one can predict if a bearded dragon that is positive will die and/or transmit disease.
There is no test that can proclaim a bearded dragon totally free of this disease while the bearded dragon is alive.
It may not even cause disease.............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
********-There is a big difference between adenovirus infection and adenovirus disease.<<<<<<<<<<
Not all bearded dragons that are infected with the virus will go on to develop disease.
*****Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out.
I honestly don't know what I would do if I were a beardie breeder. This is why I don't breed animals
(Karen L. Rosenthal, Director of Special Species Medicine
Mathew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital
University of Penn.)
In a message dated 10/6/2006 4:39:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
Bruce,
Just wanted to give you an update on things over here! I'm working on
composing
the letter for you all and sending it off to Karen to edit and and her
comments.
As we discussed yesterday - I'm sending you a summary of what we spoke about
yesterday as well as information that I have gathered as well as options for
the future. Please take the weekend to talk about the information with Lauren
and we can touch base on Monday evening after I'm done with appointments to
discuss our next step:
-Adenoviral infections in the inland bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps) appears
to be a prevalent infection in North American bearded dragons and is not a
recognized infection in Australian bearded dragons. It seems that most
breeding colonies in North America are infected with this disease.
********-There is a big difference between adenovirus infection and adenovirus disease.<<<<<<<<<<
Not all bearded dragons that are infected with the virus will go on to develop disease.
-Currently, there is not a lot of published data on adenoviral disease in
bearded dragons. An article published in 1996 discussed 4 neonatal bearded
dragons that had evidence of co-infection with suspected adenovirus and
dependivirus on their necropsy. An article published in 2002 discussed 30
hatchlings that had evidence of co-infection with suspected adenovirus,
dependivirus and coccidia on their necropsy. A recent article published in
2004 looked at the reptilian adenovirus on a molecular level.
-There is an absence of controlled studies looking at the transmission,
virulence, screening and control of adenovirus in bearded dragon colonies.
-Based on other reptile veterinarians that we have contacted as well as current literature, it seems that bearded dragons can be persistently infected with adenovirus. It is supsected that stress in these animals (shipping, inadequate husbandry, surgery, laying eggs) can result in disease. We do not yet know if these persisently infected animals can shed the virus and infect other bearded dragons but it is possible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forwarded Message:
Subj: From University of Pennsylvania
Date: 10/2/2006 6:19:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
From:
[email protected]
To:
[email protected]
CC:
[email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Bruce,
I will talk to Karen tomorrow about the time for Thursday - after 10 am is best for us too because we have to take care of patients in the hospital first.
Best of luck with Pumpkin - I'll be thinking of her tomorrow!
Good luck,
Nicole
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: Thank you for the info Journals-some questions we didn't here back on as well
Date: 10/20/2006 5:54:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
From:
[email protected]
To:
[email protected]
CC:
[email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details
Read the actual e-mails and quotes from a variety of veterinarians and more to come!
In a message dated 10/23/2006 6:33:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, JoJack13 writes: This Quote or Paraphrase comes through a top Veterinarian that had contact with Dr. Stacey. We took it in good faith, and ask Dr. Stacey to respond!
We also ask Dr Dan Wentz to respond to questions to that were asked of his studies.
The following statement was given to us by a reputable Veterinarian in contact with Dr Stacey that is an associate of Dr Jacobsen.>>> this was her statement in conversation with Dr. Stacey at University of Florida
.......I will again summarize what I found out from University of Florida (Elliot Jacobson lab, who is one of the fore-most reputable reptile veterinarians in the world and has done much of the reptile virus work).
I spoke to Dr. Stacey, who works with Dr. Jacobson. His feeling is that because most of the bearded dragons in this country are from an original group, that no collection is likely truly "free" of adenovirus. There are also asymptomatic enteric adenoviruses that may not cause disease, but could be identified on fecal samples. Most adenoviruses are opportunistic and cause disease under periods of stress, such as poor husbandry or improper diets. The recommendation from Dr. Stacey is a PCR, which is an extremely sensitive and specific test (only a few virus particles need to be present to pick up). Cost about $120 (not including Fed Ex). Best samples for clinically affected animals are liver samples (biopsy) but feces can be screened as well. Need to ship freshly collected samples on ice in 24 hours.
From what I know about Electron Microscopy is that it is quite expensive (usually several hundred dollars). Need to have intact, shedding virus in sample to identify (whereas PCR can detect fragments of virus as well as whole virus). I know what fixative is needed (called gluteraldehyde). I am always a bit skeptable when one veterinarian (especially not affiliated with a university or research lab) claims to be the only one to accurately perform fecal testing.
We can do this test if you would like (if you are feeling pressure from your clients/colleagues), however, I agree with Dr. Stacey that it may be more expense than useful information. Also, I think the PCR test may be more cost-effective. Plus, it's being done at a reputable lab that has some history and publications behind it.
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: Update on the adenovirus- Next step & your resources?????
Date: 10/11/2006 10:14:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
From:
[email protected]
To:
[email protected] (Charity division of Sunshinedragons)
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Bruce,
……….. I spoke with Karen and she will be in on Monday (could make an appointment for 11a or 12p) or the 11a appointment on Wednesday as we have a meeting at noon that day.
Look forward to meeting with you next week!
Nicole
PS - Any update on Pumpkin? How's she doing? What did your veterinarian find
during the surgery?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting
[email protected]
Charity Division of Sunshinedragons)
>
> In a message dated 10/10/2006 9:02:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>
[email protected] writes:
>
> Bruce,
> I think that it would be a good idea for you to come to the hospital so that
>
> we can discuss things. I have appointments next Monday and Wednesday - you could set up a recheck appointment through the appointment desk: 215-746-8387.
> Unfortunately this week is booked with appointments and surgeries, so early
> next week would be great!
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nicole
>
>
> I will call today. will Karen be available. Is there a better day or time to
>
> insure this.
-----------------
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: From University of Penn
Date: 10/4/2006 5:57:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: Charities316 (Charity Division of Sunshinedragons)
To:
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/2006 5:40:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Bruce,
Glad to hear the good report about Pumpkin!
Could you e-mail me directions to your place? Like I said, we are going to try
to be there by 1 pm, but if we get caught up with a bunch of emergencies we may
be a bit delayed. What number should I call tomorrow - I will call you when we
are leaving as well as call if I think we are going to delayed.
See you tomorrow,
Nicole
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: Bad News from Univ of Penn-Lets turn it into a positive as best we are able
Date: 10/5/2006 10:23:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: Charities316
To:
[email protected]
CC:
[email protected]
Ugh, ( visit had to be cancelled)
We certainly understand shit happens. An E-Mail would help, and possible a time to talk to you about any questions on it. …………………………………..
We do Appreciate your efforts, and time on this situation. We look forward to working with you ongoing. We enjoyed your attitude, approach, and down to earth attitude. We researched the market with market studies, and we know Reptiles is one of the smallest categories in the pet Market, and certainly in veterinary Schools/Hospitals.
We were also hoping to help you carve a niche in that area, and be profitable, as well as offer something most Schools may not focus on.
We know Hospitals/Schools need to make money. Our goal was to help you grow that area, specialize, be known for it, and be very profitable in both Gross Margin % as well as total Cash.
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: Update on the adenovirus- Next step & your resources?????
Date: 10/6/2006 10:16:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: Charities316
To:
[email protected]
CC:
[email protected]
Nicole,
I really appreciate the detail, and research you did. Is it possible for you to let us know the resources for the information you have?
……………………………………………..
………., it would be helpful to have an overview of Adeno Virus that the average person would be able to relate to as they now accept Cocciddia etc.
Fourth, although you listed many options there is ideal, and reality. What is the most practical realistic, approach, and message to send. Whether it be to breeders, reptile lovers/owners or new consumers/pet purchasers?
This is the most important issue that needs to be addressed.
Testing continuously is not realistic, effective, and costly.
…………………………………………We stopped testing as what is the purpose?
Bottom line is we produce Healthy, hearty Beautiful Dragons, and have an excellent reputation not only for our quality yet our customer service as well.
Remember that we stopped testing or even if we tested we don't know and could get false negatives anyway. That indicates it is not realistic to not Breed dragons with Adeno, as how do we really know……… , ….. what about false negatives?
All the scientific data, facts, or information researched is only worth while if it leads to a conclusion, direction, and realistic action plan. Data, especially questionable data is useless in and of itself……………………….Therefore I am confused i.e. Not breed Adeno Dragons, yet how? Retesting, how often, until they test positive?
Your right. We need to discuss not just what the data is, yet what is realistic, practical, and next step.
In other words what is your recommendation after now knowing and evaluating the information. Then how do we position our approach to the public, consumer, or industry.
That is the missing element> A proposal! What would you do if this was your colony or the University was Breeding and selling!
Hospitals are in business to make money, yet hopefully not at the cost of patients health, or the public benefit. Reality, Practically, & Perception is what now needs to be addressed.
Your efforts, interest, and concern, as well as the incredible quickness in research is impressive. Now lets do something positive with the results. Obviously time is of the essence...to say the least.
Regards,
Bruce Kalish
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 10/6/2006 4:39:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
Bruce,
Just wanted to give you an update on things over here! I'm working on
composing
the letter for you all and sending it off to Karen to edit and and her
comments.
As we discussed yesterday - I'm sending you a summary of what we spoke about
yesterday as well as information that I have gathered as well as options for
the future. Please take the weekend to talk about the information with Lauren
and we can touch base on Monday evening after I'm done with appointments to
discuss our next step:
-Adenoviral infections in the inland bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps) appears
to be a prevalent infection in North American bearded dragons and is not a
recognized infection in Australian bearded dragons. It seems that most
breeding colonies in North America are infected with this disease.
-Options for pre-mortem testing include:
1. EM testing on feces. We do know that EM testing of the feces can give you
false negative results, so this may not be the best screening test, as positive
animals will be missed. This can be done at the Pennsylvania state lab.
2. PCR testing on the feces. This is a more specific test that will help us
to
gather more information on the adenovirus if it is present in the feces.
According to one reptile veterinarian, he suspects that there are multiple
species of adenovirus that infect bearded dragons. He believes that some types of adenovirus are seen more often in sick bearded dragons, but this has not been confirmed and is just his opinion. If you all are interested in PCR testing, we would send the samples to this veterinarian's lab at the University of Florida.
3. Biopsy and histopathology/PCR testing on liver biopsies. Adenovirus can be
found in the liver and small intestine. It is much easier to biopsy the liver.
The liver biopsy is then investigated for presence of the virus by looking at
it under the microscope (histopathology) and PCR can be performed on the
samples to find out the type of adenovirus. Once again, false negatives can
arise if you happen to sample a piece of the liver that doesn't have the
disease.
-If an animal dies, post-mortem diagnostics can be performed. This includes
histopathology of all major organs as well as PCR on samples that have evidence
of adenovirus (usually liver and/or small intestine). Once again, these
samples would be sent to the University of Florida for PCR testing. I'm currently
discussing options for necropsies to be performed either here at the University
of Penn or at the state lab........................
Nicole
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Wentz was sent this E-mail.
Questions??? on your Study
-----------------
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Division Of Sunshinedragons-Bruce Kalish-Confused-Innoncent Questions
Date: 10/23/2006 9:28:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: Charities316
To:
[email protected]
Dan,
This is Bruce, although I am an owner in Sunshinedragons, I really only participate in their charity division.
Nevertheless, we have been reading and contacting many Vets, Universities, and your Articles on Adeno. Some issues I just don't understand, and hope you may clarify them to me.
Sunshinedragons takes pride and is passionate about it's pets. the Breeders we did a fecal check on came back negative with some only one that was Questionable. Yet some babies came back positive from those same Breeders?
First in ready your article on Cheri S' site> (
http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-47-page-1.html),I have some, possibly ignorant questions. I hope you could clarify them as they are real, and not meant to be controversial.
As a quick background I did enter Penn State as a Pre-Med Student ……… Not that it means anything, except We have some understanding and background of controlled studies.
In your Study, which admittedly I reviewed only twice, as I started to become confused as to some connections made. Therefore I felt it best to take you up on your offer for any help, advise or direction.
Please correct me if I make any misstatements inadvertently. Admittedly not many studies have truly been done on Adeno in dragons.
I read the article, nevertheless:
>I did not see any evidence that any Dragons Die, or even got ill from Adeno, unless they had other contributing illnesses.
> False negatives from fecal examines could be prevalent unless the virus is shedding at the time. I am lead to understand that even liver biopsies may give false negative if the piece of the liver removed is negative, yet the dragon still may be infected?
Yet you indicated not to breed Adeno virus Dragons. How do you truly know unless you test and test again, and again?
> Other information that I have received says that the only real way to tell if a Dragon has Adeno is a Necropsy is done? Yet even then it is difficult to determine if a Dragon actually passed from Adeno. Typically bad husbandry may cause the virus to have ill affects, other illnesses will certainly complicate the total health of the Dragon as well.
> Adeno virus may show a presence, yet the Dragon may not actually have the disease???
Not knowing if the dragon has the disease either through false negatives, or carries it, yet does not have the disease, as well as no evidence that the Adeno virus in and of itself causes any deaths, or even sickness why is it there a greater concern about this virus any more than low levels of coccidia, or pin worm which is fairly common in Dragons, especially in Australia. There it is considered normal to have low levels Coccidia and Pinworm.
We have had 2 Dragons in five years pass on of cancer, Two others passed, yet one had other issues, and one we didn't do a Necropsy on. And with a significant population living things die.
Yet in our sales we only had reports of 5 Babies pass in the last three years. In fact the majority of our Dragons grow bigger, more robust and Healthier than the average due to our husbandry, genetics and research of dragons we obtain.
Attached are reports for just two years of comments we received form an incredible amount of customers, and we invite you and hope you will take the time to read them they are quick reading even though the volume appears long.
Below are just several of those. Please help us clarify our questions and concerns as we are very concerned about some of what we consider inconsistencies.
Also below are some reports from other Vets.?
>Some customer and vet comments that obtained dragons from us. Please see attached:
hello lauren,
just thought that i would let you know that the dragon hat you sent me is doing absolutly great!
she is truly a stunner. all of my veterinarian colleagues are very impressed with her great personality and even greater coloring.
thank you so much for picking me such a nice little girl.
jessica diebold
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
WOW !!!
Bruce, in the e-mails I have been saying "little guy". When I opened the package, WOW! He is a big boy!
Thank you so much, He is much more than I expected. Beautiful and lots of Red. I thought he was going to be 1/2 a size smaller. I was so excited, I left work for an hour to make sure I was there for the delivery. He arrived at about 10:05am. I soaked him for about 10 minutes before running back to work.
She is extremely large for her age - wow - thanks so much!!!!!
I'll let you know in a couple of days how she's doing.
Thanks again & don't fight with each other too much .......lol
Robin
the scar x blaze baby arrived about about 9:30 this morning….We
were suprised at how big he is for being 8 weeks old.
Hey there,
Yes everything is going wonderfully! …..I can already tell he's growing and he has a monster appetite. He is a real sweetie and is even tame enough to eat right out of your hand!....................
I am really happy we came to you to buy our dragon, he is so healthy, and happy, you can tell he was well taken care of, and if that wasn't enough he's color is just amazing too……. He should grow up to be one handsome boy. Tristan tells me that Zero is the best birthday present he has ever gotten. He has been showing him off to everyone. Thanks again!
Meryl
Thanks for the honesty, it means the world to us. Right now we have a big mess with the 2 dragons we just bought. We would always be honest about what we sold to. That's what makes you all great to work with. I wish more people were like that.
Thank-you again,
Rea
my wife loves the bearded female you sent us ,
thats the only female we kept…………we
got rid of everything else and she insist
" if it not from sunshine we will not buy from anyone else"
her exact words and i agree with her…..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have received the babies, thank you very much! I was absolutely
speechless when I opened the package, they are HUGE!!
I'm not sure what you feed them, but great job!
I only hope I can keep up the good work. …..
------hey Lauren, I just want to let you know Moose saw the vet today. The vet said he was the best looking dragon he's seen in a long time! He told me it was refreshing to feel confident about a new lizard he was seeing and how it would be cared for, with so many sad stories coming into his office these days. …………He's doing so well! That boy is
eating me out of house and home. Thanks again for such a wonderful
addition to our family
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way....Whiskers, son of Pyro and Studly, woke up today for a bit from brumation. I weighed him and thought you would like to know that he is 22" long and weighs 728 grams. His vet says he's one of healthiest dragons he has seen in a long time. I'm not overly concerned about this virus, just thought I should try to keep myself informed - thanks again.
Sherri
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Bruce
……………………………..you may want to call some of the
private practice veterinarians who do reptiles. The names out there include
Drs. Douglas Mader, Steven Barten, Scott Stahl, Richard Funk, Kevin Wright, to
name a few. I am sure you can find their hospital telephone numbers on the
internet. But I would warn you that unless you come in to see them with an
animal, they will charge you a consultation fee as most do not have alot of
time to spend on the phone and they will do phone consults.
This is a very, very, very complicated issue. Complicated b/c of biology and
complicated b/c of politics of those who have an economic piece of this pie-
owners, breeders, sellers, vets.
Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a
beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out. I honestly don't know
what I would do if I were a beardie breeder. This is why I don't breed
animals.
Hope this helps.
Karen Director of Special species Ivy League University of Pennsylvania Veterinarian School ( One of the top Ranked Vet Schools in the Country)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRUTH
"..Integrity is telling myself the truth.
And honesty is telling the truth
to other people..."
- Spencer Johnson
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
Bruce Kalish
Owner
www.Sunshinedragons.com
E-Mail
[email protected]
215-860-9495
Jason,
It is rumors and innuendos. we received over 20-30 positive responses from the very best top breeders in the country applauding our approach and results. It is interesting that several breeders tested positive yet she spread only rumors about us.
There is no evidence that these dragons have adenovirus, yet we would gladly take it back.
Obviously it is a personal attack by Cheri S as I told her what I thought of her and her Voodoo control. Power Corrupts, Absolute power Corrupts Absolutely.
What some people will do to prove they are right rather than do what is right!
Here are the facts as we researched Adeno virus as well, and they are obvious.
If the e-mail questioning Dan Wentz who never responded to our questions for what we can only consider the obvious reasons. We E-mailed him for a response Three (3) times
Regards,
Bruce
Sunshinedragons L.L.C.
Jon Kalish GM
215-860-9495
www.sunshinedragons.com
[email protected]
TRUTH
Integrity is telling myself the truth.
And honesty is telling the truth
to other people.
- Spencer Johnson
