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Tangerine :: Hypo, super hypo...???

BluGnat

BluGnat

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Can someone explain what the visual criteria is for the different types of tangerine? The babies that I picked up are "hypo and super hypo" tangerines. In trying to figure it out by looking at the gorgeous geckos for sale on the breeder sites (Urban Gecko, for example) I'm only confusing myself more. Is the Hypo/Super Hypo related to the phenotype of the tangerine specifically? Or is it another, unrelated characteristic, and there can be "hypo" and "super hypo" of other color morphs as well?? *IS* it phenotype, or is it an environmentally caused/effected trait? What exactly IS it? TIA for any info. :slamit:
 
do a search, I think this topic has came up a few tiems before and you can probly find the information that you are looking for
 
Thanks, I did, but it didn't turn up anything (using those key words, anyway). I'll look elsewhere. Thank you!
 
SHT vs. HT

As a general rule, a Hypo-Tangerine (HT) has less than 10 spots on the body, while a Super-hypo Tangerine (SHT) has little or no spotting at all. Both are line-bred traits.
 
Hypo and tangerine are separate traits. A gecko can be hypo without being tangerine, and a gecko can be tangerine without being hypo. It's just that the two traits usually go hand in hand. Tangerine is based on just that, if the color is very orange then it's a tangerine, otherwise it's just normal coloration or high yellow coloration if it has more of a yellow color. As far as regular hypo and super hypo, what Marcia said is correct.
 
The terms hypo and super-hypo arent restricted to tangerine color. Plain Hypo would be the "less than 10 spots", but with just yellow coloring, not tang.

Also, in researching this for myself by looking at many pics, I've found that one person's super-hypo is another person's hypo, and one person's hypo is another person's high-yellow, LOL. In other words, there are different interpretations for the terms, so always look at the picture!
 
Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou. I was thinking it was waaaay more complicated than that.
 
I use a similar method of "name calling" or "profiling" my geckos as Marcia... the main difference is I use a 7 spot rule for hypo and 0 spots for S.Hypo. There are some that fall into a grey area ...literally! If I have a gecko with greyish and/or brownish tinted spots I will consider it to be a hypo rainbow even if there are more than 7 of those type of spots but not more than 1/4 of the back... I could go on but anyways,thats when can become more difficult!

It's all up to the interpretation of buyer and seller... within reason!
 
This is SO interesting, and I'm really glad I asked and I really appreciate all your answers!

So, if the number of spots is roughly indicative of hypo- or super-hypo, then I'm thinking therefore, all patternlesses are super hypo? Or is that another factor entirely and not so simple? Thanks for helping me understand. I've been purusing your guys' gorgeous websites - as many as I can find - and trying to learn the stuff myself. It wasn't working so well. :slamit: I'm relieved and grateful to be handed a clue here!
 
BluGnat said:
all patternlesses are super hypo? Or is that another factor entirely and not so simple?
Click to expand...

Wow, good question... you made me have to think about that one!

I would say the answer would be No. The reason I say no is because the patternless although are born with spotting are not "normally" prone to the melanin as are other morphs. The patternless were not achieved through selective breeding rather are an oddity similar to albinos. If we were to consider the patternless a SH then we would also have to include every albino and blizzard in that same catagory but those were also traits that were "direct" from nature waiting to be discovered.
Hypo-melanistic and Super Hypo-melanistic were line bred traits.

Please if anyone has anything to add or any sort of rebuttal ...chime in (as if I would need to put that out there!)
 
morphs

I'm thinking therefore, all patternlesses are super hypo? Or is that another factor entirely and not so simple?
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Well... it is a little more complicated than that. When we refer to 'hypo', it means lacking, or a deficiency of melanin; where the opposite would hold true for 'hyper' meaning an abundance of melanin. When this term is used in Leopard Geckos, it generally applies only to geckos with patterns or markings. Therefore, a gecko that has a lot of dark markings or spots would be referred to as a 'hyper-melanistic' and a gecko with little or no markings would be considered a 'hypo-melanistic.'

Now, a Patternless (some folks incorrectly refer to as 'Leucistics') or a Blizzard are completely separate morphs. These geckos naturally do not possess markings at all. While it may be true that they are 'hypo', or lacking in melanistic markings, generally they are simply referrred to by their morph name.

I know it's confusing... heck, even professional breeders and other so-called 'experts' cannot come to a concensus on what to call many Leopard Geckos morphs, and like Gene stated, it can be subjective!
 
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Check out the genetics page of my website (www.illinileosandpetportraits.com). There is some info there...bear in mind that the page still needs a little work.

At any rate...in my opinion reduced pattern is more than 10 spots but significatly less than normal, hypo is 1-10 spots, and super hypo is 0 spots (all refering to back spots...head and tail spots don't count). The morph known as hypo is either line-bred or co/incompletely dominant. Hine line hypos are believed to be co/incompletely dominant....any that do not have Hine blood in them are probably line-bred. Now if you are referring to the trait of being hypomelanistic then patties and blizzards would be considered hypomelanistic...but if you are talking about the hypo morph than most are not...though they could have the genes. Patternless and blizzard basically cover up any other genes that the animal might have...so technically you could have a patternless from Hine hypo lines and when you cross it with a normal gecko get hypo offspring, but if you crossed a normla pattie with no hypo background to a normal, you will get a bunch of normal offspring that are het for pattie (same with blizzards). Let me know if that makes any sense.....
 
Wow, thanks everyone SO much for all the info. This thread has helped me understand more in one sitting than all the poking around I've been doing for the last couple months. Stina, I checked out (and REALLY like) your genetics info, but it was like I was missing the info I needed to make sense of it, if that makes sense. It making a lot more sense now. I'm really interested in genetics, but have been involved in learning horse color genetics for so long, anything else confuses me because I'm used to thinking in the frame of mind as what works for horses, if that makes sense.

Thanks again, big time.
 
Ooh...horsey genetics :)...lol I'm thinking of going into equine medicine, so I know a little about horse color genetics :) ...you could compare patternless or blizzard to something like the grey gene in horses...Grey horses are born with a normal color but then the grey gene takes over and there's no way of knowing what other color genetics they have without testing it or breeding them...well patties and blizzards aren't born with normal colors...but the patternless or blizzard genes cover up whatever other color genetics they have...just like the grey gene in horses :) Does that make any sense? For hypos...hmm...I can't think of a comparison...isn't there a spotting gene in horses that's codominant? Is overo?...well anyway...you know how there are variances in the amount of pattern that a paint horse has...like the percentage of white or color...well the hypo markings (at least Hine line hypos) are like that...except that people have made different names for different degrees of spotting...whereas in horses if they have spots they are a paint (be it over, tobiano, tovero...whatever)...there aren't names for varying percentages of white or color.

Does that make sense?...it might not...you said horse genetics and my brain just went "WEEEEE!"...lol
 
Grey horses are born with a normal color but then the grey gene takes over
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we bred horses for many years. you can tell a grey from birth. they are not what you would call grey but the have a unique look only grey babies have.... my father used to refer to it as a "groula" (they kinda look ugly colorwise)... now as they age they change colors and generally by about a year and a half- 2 years are grey with dappling... as they age they lose this dappling and get lighter almost white but the grey or black mane and tail remain

whereas in horses if they have spots they are a paint (be it over, tobiano, tovero...whatever)...there aren't names for varying percentages of white or color.
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horses with spots are generally appalosas.... large blotched animals are generally paints however becaause of the guidlines for a particular breed lets say a quarter horse... any white past the knee or past the hocks, any white over the eyes or too far down in the mouth and chin , or ever any small spots even under the belly or under the tail are considered "crop outs".... crop outs can not be registered as Quarter Horses because they do not meet the requirments (even though they are full quarter horses)... if you breed a paint to a paint or to a quarter horse... you can not register it quarter horse but even if it has no white on it because one parent was a paint it can be registerd as a paint.there are different types of paints... as there are different kinds of apps and quarter horses.
 
we bred horses for many years. you can tell a grey from birth. they are not what you would call grey but the have a unique look only grey babies have.... my father used to refer to it as a "groula" (they kinda look ugly colorwise)... now as they age they change colors and generally by about a year and a half- 2 years are grey with dappling... as they age they lose this dappling and get lighter almost white but the grey or black mane and tail remain
Click to expand...
"groula" sounds like grulla (which I personally find to be gorgeous horses)...which is a completely different color from grey although some people incorrectly call horses going through a steel grey phase grulla...but it could be a completely different word that I've just never heard. As far as greys...some are born with fairly normal coloration which fades out to grey as they grow...and eventually turn almost white with a grey muzzle and possibly some grey on the lower legs (the mane and tail will eventually also turn white). The only difference between most foals that will go grey and a non-grey foal is that their color will usually be the adult version of the color instead of the baby version (i.e. a bay foal that will go grey will be born with black legs...whereas a non-greying bay will be born with lighter colored legs). There is a great variance in the rate that a horse greys though and can actually have a different average between breeds or even different lines within breeds...some greys are born already almost white...but its only because they actually went through most of the greying process in the womb. A good example of a greying horse is most lipizans...(though they can be other colors...) they are born black and within a few years are almost entirely white (though some turn "white" faster than others). Some breeds grey a lot more slowly than that and won't be anywhere near white until they're in their teens. I'm not pulling information out of the air...I do know what I'm talking about... As far as the spotting colorations...I was not refering to appaloosa spotting, I was referring to pinto spotting (I said paint...but should have said pinto). I wasn't speaking of anything really breed related at all...although I'm fully aware of how paints and quarter horses can be registered. Like I said...I know what I'm talking about...I'm not pulling crap out of the air...
 
Oh also...I didn't mean to compare the actual spotting pattern of horses with leopard geckos....just do a general comparison... i.e. that there is a range in percentage of white/color on horses and range of spotting levels on Hine line hypo leopard geckos.

**I made a couple little mistakes above and forgot to add something I meant to...I forgot to add that some greys don't go through an obvious dapple phase...some remain very regular in color and might only have very very faint signs of dappling. As far as the mistakes...when I said lipizzans are born black I meant to say like a normal black...with a mousy dark brownish type of color. Also when I said some breeds grey a lot more slowly I meant to say some horses.
 
Stina, that is SO right up my alley and makes PERFECT sense!!!! (The grey compared to the patty trait). That's awesome. Thank you. I'm finding it very exciting that what you see when the baby hatches is NOT what you get as an adult! I knew that about the "normal" and "high yellow" leos, but didn't know all these great, bright, plugged-in color morphs went through the same deal. Can you TELL when they hatch sort of what they'll look like, or what characteristics they'll have, or is it purely from knowing what the parents look like, and waiting and watching?

I get what you're saying about the spotting, too - the overo *is* dominant over the tobiano, and that gives me a great way to look at the Leos to learn how their spotting possibly works. For the overo, there's also the sabino, and the rabicano, etc. (Oh, and yeah, the grulla/grullo is/works like a dun gene, not grey).

My other hobby is equine miniatures - hobbyist purchase a horse sculpture, and commission it to be painted - and these people get SO incredibly anal that the paintjob that's put on the model is completely genetically plausible. We're big fans of Dr. Sponenberg.
 
Leopard Gecko genetics

OK, before we get too far off the topic of Leopard Geckos, I'd like to add something that may help understand the 'hypo' and 'super-hypo' and how it compares to the NORMAL genotype. Since they are all line-bred traits derived from Normals, High-yellow, Hypo-yellow, Tangerine, Hypo-tangerine, Super-hypo tangerine phenotypes are all born looking exactly like Normals. They are a pale yellow color with wide black bands, and as they grow and shed the black banding breaks up into spots, or starts fading... and their body color starts developing into their adult coloration.

Hypos will develop fewer than 10 spots on their body, while the rest fade away, and Super-hypos will lose all of their body spotting, and 'baldies' will lose their head spotting. The final body coloration would make it either a Tangerine or a Yellow/gold. The color, intensity of color, and amount of patterning are all line-bred traits.

Now, Patty's are born a tan color with slightly darker blotches, or 'mottling', that fades as they grow and their final solid color develops. Blizzards are hatched either pure white (sometimes tinged with yellow), pale gray, or pinkish with no body patterning at all. Pattys and Blizzards are not derived from the Normal genotype.
 
Marcia...aren't the Hine line hypo genetics co/incompletely dominant and not line-bred? At any rate...All I was trying to say there Heather is that in pinto horses you get a range in the percentage of white/color but there aren't different names within the range...in leopard geckos you get a range of spotting amounts...but people have made different names for different levels of spotting.
Back on the horse stuff...hehe aren't sabino/rabicano/etc. different genes from your basic overo?...related but different? As far as grullas...black horses with the dun gene...don't I know it :) Very pretty in my opinion! And apparently in most people's opinions since most grullas are a lot more expensive than other horses. When you say equine miniatures do you mean breyers and/or Peter Stone horses (and I guess possibly resins as well)?... :) I happen to collect Breyers myself (and I have a couple Peter Stone horses)...and I've painted a couple...just for myself though...not to sell. I'm pretty good at it though...but not good enough for them to be able win at most open customized model shows...partially because I just use acrylic paint...which dries too fast to blend well... oh well...I don't try to show them anyhow. At any rate...I'm glad I managed to help some with your understanding of leo genetics :)
 
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