Tentative list of membership options.

[Python Dreams]

I don't think that everyone that has posted against a fee for the BOI was pissed or that many people feel that it is unethical. I think most believe that the BOI is the most useful tool for herpers on the internet and they do not want to see it fail. I would also think that the majority of the people that come here think of it as the BOI more so than Fauna. It always surprised me that it wasnt glowing HUGE on the front page as the Star Attraction. I think Rich has always viewed Fauna as more than the BOI, and wants a site more similar to Kingsnake with the BOI just as a part of it. With alot of the stuff being added on like rep points, Good Guy list (repetitive of BOI threads) and different forums for everything, the workload is not trying to be cut out and the clique atmosphere is pretty much stronger than ever. Especially if that was the goal, their have been quite a few ways to cut the load.
I have been here for years and have seen some pretty strange behavior, but I don't think I have ever emailed Rich once to complain about how others were acting. I understand if someone is breaking the TOS, but otherwise? Even whining about the Rep point situation.... Grown adults taking time out of their day to take the time out of another mans day because their points are being ruined? Do you think this is helping Rich's workload?
I just think that this will be a bad thing for Fauna. I hope it is not, but since I am into Ball Pythons, I can get alot more info, morph photos, and just general conversation on other sites like Kingsnake and RDR, not to mention it is free. I love the BOI, but will wait to see what happens before I actually consider paying for it. Maybe if I was wealthy I would not wink at it, but this has been a very rainy winter for California, pretty much making my business non-existant. I also thinking asking another website owner to bear the brunt is pretty laughable (I know this was not done by Rich).
The real point of my rant was that just because people are not behind the changes to Fauna, does not mean they are not behind Fauna. Earlier I mentioned not having answered my questions Rich only to point out I was tired and did not want to go through them, especially since the changes were already pretty much made. In no way was I insinuating that you have not been answering questions and I have been impressed with how much you have kept up with the threads and the business at hand. I hope that it succeeds, but if it doesnt what then? Would you pass the wand and let someone keep the BOI afloat for all the herpers that use it? Would you consider any of the ways that were offered to keep the BOI up and work free? I can see with all the sites you have and the vision you have for Fauna, that is alot for anyone, but I hope that does not mean the end of The BOI...
Tom Baker

 

[WebSlave]

I hope that it succeeds, but if it doesnt what then? Would you pass the wand and let someone keep the BOI afloat for all the herpers that use it? Would you consider any of the ways that were offered to keep the BOI up and work free? I can see with all the sites you have and the vision you have for Fauna, that is alot for anyone, but I hope that does not mean the end of The BOI...
Tom Baker

Well Tom, let's look at this as an analogy, shall we?

You build a nice visitors attraction, mostly because you can as a sideline, and heck you enjoy doing that kind of work, so why not? People start trickling in and commenting how nice it is, and they tell their friends. More people begin showing up and darn, you need to make the doorways bigger, add some air conditioning, put in bathrooms and a dining area. Still more people come. Now you need to move everything to a larger building, and heck the workload has gotten a bit much so you ask for some volunteer help. And yet is still grows... Now the current building is straining from the sheer numbers of visitors and people are asking for help with this and that. When you can't get to them all fast enough they complain that you should get some more help in order to help them.

Well finally it reaches a point when the workload and expense is just too much to bear. Yeah, there have been some kind donations and other kind people taking out advertising on a couple of spots you set up for that on the walls, but it really isn't making ends meet when you consider the effort put into it. So one day you decide to put in a turnstile and start charging a minimal fee.

People start saying to heck with you and your place, we can go elsewhere to get what you have there so why should we pay? And as they turn away from your door, one turns back to you and asks "Hey, can you give us this place since you won't be needing it any longer? No sense letting it go to waste just because we won't pay to use it."

 

[Python Dreams]

My point is that people would pay to have the BOI available... I believe that someone even offered to buy it. I think finding someone, or a group of people to take on that task would not be a problem at all. They would pay for the servers and run it in a way to decrease the work load and bring down the server cost which would be invaluable to everyone. Heavily focus on The BOI and Classifieds for reptiles only which would probably increase the views to each section since their isnt an enormous amount of forums to read and more importantly to moderate. They could use alot of the advice that has been given to cut down on all costs, and their would not be an issue with server space since odds are they would not have the amount of sites to operate.
Starting The BOI and keeping it going has been a very selfless mission of yours, even if you had hoped for more financially in the future. I don't see why such a valuable tool to the reptile community would need to be completely erased because what you hope to achieve with Fauna might not be done. What harm would their be in letting someone else take on the finances and responsiblities of a part to a website that you are no longer interested in?
Tom Baker

 

[DAND]

Tom,

Say Bill Gates decided tomorrow to pick up the tab for all of Faunas operating and maintenance costs. Would that stop people like Bob Sloan, Pete Perez or any of the other multiple name using, suspension and fine dodging people from coming back under different names? Would them sneaking back in make Fauna a better place? Would the people who have multiple names to further their own reputation by leaving good guy posts for themselves, or defending themselves under different names when a bad guy post arises, add more or less legitimacy to Fauna? I see it less likely for the multiple names to be used if there is a fee involved.

 

[riverjop]

My point is that people would pay to have the BOI available... I believe that someone even offered to buy it. I think finding someone, or a group of people to take on that task would not be a problem at all. They would pay for the servers and run it in a way to decrease the work load and bring down the server cost which would be invaluable to everyone. Heavily focus on The BOI and Classifieds for reptiles only which would probably increase the views to each section since their isnt an enormous amount of forums to read and more importantly to moderate. They could use alot of the advice that has been given to cut down on all costs, and their would not be an issue with server space since odds are they would not have the amount of sites to operate.
Starting The BOI and keeping it going has been a very selfless mission of yours, even if you had hoped for more financially in the future. I don't see why such a valuable tool to the reptile community would need to be completely erased because what you hope to achieve with Fauna might not be done. What harm would their be in letting someone else take on the finances and responsiblities of a part to a website that you are no longer interested in?
Tom Baker

Not to mention you could buy a pad for the lounge chair and a bigger umbrella!!!

 

[Otter_23]

My biggest concern isn't the fee. If a site is wanted and needed those who enjoy it will find away to keep it running. If not then the site should wither and die. I understand why the membership is going into effect and so be it. I guess I was even willing to pay the small fee in future. The problem I now have that has made me re-think paying is this

If this membership base has become such a burden on this site, then what was the point of the site to begin with. It seems like when building a site the goal is to get hits and members. I just feel that with all the statements made about being vampires that I personally feel more of a burden to the web master than an asset. If I was a big business then I would have no problem paying because I would make it back in advertising and selling my wares/animals. It just seems to me that the one's using the boi now will be the seasoned veterans who already know how to protect themselves and not make mistakes. The hobbiest is still going to be taken advantage of and will not want to pay 10 dollars to admit to people they made a stupid mistake and got taken.

That's just my opinion and really am on the fence with the whole thing. What's intersting though is I think there are a lot of people like me reading these threads and the more I see how people treat each other the easier it makes it for me to make a decision.
Mark Westberg

 

[critical bill]

Heh!

Not to mention you could buy a pad for the lounge chair and a bigger umbrella!!!

I just had a funny vision about the movie "Office Space".....toward the end...where the dude was sitting on the lounge chair on the beach.

Chuck Kimmel

 

[John Cherry]

Mike,

I understand what you are saying and I guess there are some points in your post that you really feel strongly about. If you will though consider these points:

1. This site has become large enough where it is taking a large amount of time and effort for Rich and it is taking away from his main thrust of making a living ie Serpenco.

2. The site has proven itself to be an asset to the members of this hobby and gives us all another web option thru which we can share our knowledge and love of the animals we all keep.

3. I think you are under estimating the power of knowledge when it comes to weeding out bad apples and peoples readiness to share information, satisfaction or dis-satisfaction with any given deal in this hobby.

4. I personally do not think that we as a community should expect Rich and his helpers to do the work they do free of charge. I learned a long time ago that anything worth having is normally worth paying a reasonable price for.

5. I hope you decide to remain an active member of this site as everyone that is involved from the smallest hobbist to the largest breeder can all benefit from the information and experiences that are shared on this site.

My one final thought is that even though I do produce a large number of hatchlings each year, I do not make my living off my reptiles. With that said and realizing that I have been in this hobby for over 38 years now, I am thankfull to have places such as this to have contact with fellow keepers that continue to help me in my activities in this hobby. The old days may have been better form the standpoint of not so many rules and restrictions, but it seems like the dark ages when compared to the state of the hobby today. I hope we can keep it that way in the future. I believe this to be so important that as an extra benefit to my customers, I plan on instituting a deal where when they make a purchase I will reduce the price of the animals if they will join the site as a contributing member.


Just the thoughts of a worn out snake guy,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

 

[WebSlave]

My biggest concern isn't the fee. If a site is wanted and needed those who enjoy it will find away to keep it running. If not then the site should wither and die. I understand why the membership is going into effect and so be it. I guess I was even willing to pay the small fee in future. The problem I now have that has made me re-think paying is this

If this membership base has become such a burden on this site, then what was the point of the site to begin with. It seems like when building a site the goal is to get hits and members. I just feel that with all the statements made about being vampires that I personally feel more of a burden to the web master than an asset. If I was a big business then I would have no problem paying because I would make it back in advertising and selling my wares/animals. It just seems to me that the one's using the boi now will be the seasoned veterans who already know how to protect themselves and not make mistakes. The hobbiest is still going to be taken advantage of and will not want to pay 10 dollars to admit to people they made a stupid mistake and got taken.

That's just my opinion and really am on the fence with the whole thing. What's intersting though is I think there are a lot of people like me reading these threads and the more I see how people treat each other the easier it makes it for me to make a decision.
Mark Westberg

Sorry, but no, I had no intention, heck not even a glimmer of a suspicion, that this site would get so big. "Big" doesn't mean the number of forums, it means that number of PEOPLE coming to it and utilizing it. THAT is what puts the strain on the resources (me as well as the hardware it runs on). I could have a gazillion forums on a site with no traffic and it wouldn't be a burden at all.

How many people have started up a website and years later still puttering along with only 10 to 20 simultaneous users? Actually MOST of them are like that, particularly in this industry. Those are a piece of cake, comparatively to take care of.

As for the "reason" I put up this site, well I guess in some respects it is kind of humorous, so let me show you the steps here so you can get an idea:

• It all started with a little forum I put on my SerpenCo.com site. Just a little general discussion forum about Corn Snakes. Or at least that is what I wanted. I think this was back in 1996.
• Well, I had continual problems with people posting THEIR animals for sale on my own message board. This did kind of irk me, because heck, I was trying to sell my own animals off of my own site, so why should I give them the free advertising and exposure at my own expense. So I would be deleting a few of them about every day.
• This got old. So in defense, I decided to get a suitable domain name (HerpWantAds.com) and put up another message board there and try to get those scalliwags off of my SerpenCo site onto the HerpWantAds site so my own message board would go back to just being conversations about Corn Snakes. And it did seem to work out just fine that way. Somewhat.
• Sometime early in the development of HerpWantAds, I had an incident where a guy stiffed me for checks totalling over $2K for some animals I had sent him. Yeah, I was pissed about it, and heck I had a message board set up that was getting a little bit of traffic, so I wanted to warn other people, and maybe in the process this guy would see his name in public and maybe be embarrassed enough to pay up and settle this problem. But I didn't want to just put up a plain page warning about this guy. I figured maybe another forum on HerpWantAds where people could discuss this sort of thing, and maybe people would know of this guy and give me back some info on how to contact him. So the Board of Inquiry was born.
• Well if you will notice, the domain name I was using for that site was "HerpWantAds". I found myself continually deleting posts about all kinds of animals posted there. Yeah, maybe I was being anal about it, but darn, MONKEYS are NOT herps! So I started groping around for another solution to this constantly changing problem of something I set up being used in a manner I had not envisioned for it. So, I remembered a publication many years ago called the FaunaClassifieds put out by Bill Gillingham. I thought maybe this would be broad enough to cover all of the topics I was seeing being posted on my HerpWantAds site. So I contacted Bill and asked him if he was still using that name and if not, would he mind that I set up a website using it. He answered that he had dropped the publication long ago and wished me luck with my new website. So FaunaClassifieds.com was then born.
• So here we are today.

No, I did not jump into this thinking "Oh boy! I'm going to build a website and get LOTS of people coming to it and make LOTS of money!" Matter of fact, the one major reason I have done all this is just because I have a computer programming background, and this actually was fun and interesting for me to do. It is quite a thrill to build something like this and see people actually USING it!

But damn, somewhere along the line, this became more of a job then a casual passtime. When I began noticing that I was telling my wife I was too busy to spend time with her, my animals weren't getting the care I should be giving them and I had to hire people to put in the time with them that I was spending online, I had to stop and reassess what the heck I am really doing. When I get migraine headaches from beating my head against my desk because of one server problem after another, or eyes bleary from answering emails and private messages, etc., etc., I have to ask myself why in the world am I doing this?

So here we are today.

I just came to the conclusion that I'm just not going to work this hard any longer on this site without getting something out of it. If people think it is of enough value to them to pay a little bit to keep it going then this is the opportunity to show me it is worth MY time to keep on doing what I am doing.

I have actually gotten some hate mail claiming I am a money grubbing asshole for wanting to make $170,000 off of this site. Somehow they got it into their minds that 17,000 people are going to be sending me $10 each. Yeah, right. I will be darned surprised if even 500 people send in money. Break that down into an hourly wage and see what you come up with over a year's time. So yeah, I am going to get rich off of this.....

Anyway, I think I have spent enough time on this explanation. In a nutshell, I have decided that either I am going to be getting a little something for my time and efforts, or I will be spending my time and efforts on other things either much more enjoyable, or much more profitable to me. If anyone has a problem with that attitude, well I guess they are just going to have to live with it. That is my choice to make.

Hope that explains it a little better.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

In a nutshell, I have decided that either I am going to be getting a little something for my time and efforts, or I will be spending my time and efforts on other things either much more enjoyable, or much more profitable to me. If anyone has a problem with that attitude, well I guess they are just going to have to live with it.

I think Rich has two things going on right now... the first being 'burnout'. He truly has become a webSLAVE to this site. Second, when your hobby becomes a job, then it's time to start getting paid for it.

I think that there are more people willing to pay for this website than you might think, Webslave. It's always the babies that cry the loudest.

 

[Python Dreams]

Tom,

Say Bill Gates decided tomorrow to pick up the tab for all of Faunas operating and maintenance costs. Would that stop people like Bob Sloan, Pete Perez or any of the other multiple name using, suspension and fine dodging people from coming back under different names? Would them sneaking back in make Fauna a better place? Would the people who have multiple names to further their own reputation by leaving good guy posts for themselves, or defending themselves under different names when a bad guy post arises, add more or less legitimacy to Fauna? I see it less likely for the multiple names to be used if there is a fee involved.

I think Rich has a little too much on his plate. I think with all of the websites he currently runs (which also cost money, time, and server space) and the need for Fauna to be similar to Kingsnake (only meaning #1 animal related website) with all the unlimited number of forums even stretching beyond reptiles, that he is just burned out. Even I think a slight didsain for the fact that a majority of the people only view The BOI and even taking it personal that some people feel the site should remain free. I hope this does not lead to the end of The BOI.
With that stated I can answer your questions better. To keep it the same their is nothing you can do to cut out the workload, especially with more work added on daily (Good Guy List, Rep Points, etc..) which I believe add to the clique mystique. With the number of sites being ran outside of Fauna and with the size of Fauna, the cost and moderation time would not be brought down either. If it was more focused on The BOI and the Classifieds as a reptile site, the workload would be cut down significantly. One or two ferrets (Richie Luna types) are all that are needed, and most the people get caught in their scams which lets us all know how they really are. I think once the fee is induced you might be right... They might not be posting, but alot of others might not as well. Also, with more traffic in less areas, maybe banner adds and charging for classifieds or photospace would bring in some more income. Thats how I see it and only brought it up again since asked.

Also this quote kinda bugged me...

"I think that there are more people willing to pay for this website than you might think, Webslave. It's always the babies that cry the loudest."

I find it funny that because people have a differing opinion that they can be considered babies. If you want to have a conversation without differing opinions, that should be put in the topic line, or at least noted somewhere that it is only a one sided thread. Since most the people in this thread agree with Rich, does that mean they are the babies crying the loudest? All of the terms like babies, vampires, cheap, unethical to charge, scam for charging etc... show me that some opinions are really not worth reading.
Tom Baker

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

What the ???

Also this quote kinda bugged me...

"I think that there are more people willing to pay for this website than you might think, Webslave. It's always the babies that cry the loudest."

I find it funny that because people have a differing opinion that they can be considered babies. If you want to have a conversation without differing opinions, that should be put in the topic line, or at least noted somewhere that it is only a one sided thread. Since most the people in this thread agree with Rich, does that mean they are the babies crying the loudest? All of the terms like babies, vampires, cheap, unethical to charge, scam for charging etc... show me that some opinions are really not worth reading.
Tom Baker

????? I think you should read the post again, along with the prior post I made, Tom. I was referring the people that are crying about having to pay for the use of this website as "babies"... kind of like the picture of the one that Rich posted.

 

[Vince]

Well, you tell me. I am getting a group of people saying I am unethical for wanting to charge money for people to use areas of this site. Basically that I should be overjoyed to keep giving of mytime and efforts for free.

So if I have my choices of how to spend time I am not being paid for, which do you think I would prefer to do:

Option 1:

Or Option 2, handling these kinds of email and PMs every day:

Tough one, isn't it?

with all the extra money you can be their more often then you think. 25 x 1000 = 25,000 = Cha CHING $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Python Dreams]

Marcia,
I felt you were referring to whoever was not directly for the membership fee being used for Fauna, which I am one, and I am neither crying nor a baby. I also see how your topic of babies was directly related to the thread, but Rich was more pointing out the people whining about being called names. My bad, if I misunderstood who you were talking about. I apologize...
Tom Baker

 

[Wraith]

I think Rich has a little too much on his plate. I think with all of the websites he currently runs (which also cost money, time, and server space) and the need for Fauna to be similar to Kingsnake (only meaning #1 animal related website) with all the unlimited number of forums even stretching beyond reptiles, that he is just burned out. Even I think a slight didsain for the fact that a majority of the people only view The BOI and even taking it personal that some people feel the site should remain free. I hope this does not lead to the end of The BOI.

I seem to remember reading something a year or so ago about how Rich did not want faunaclassifieds to "become another kingsnake.com." I can't remember which thread that comment came from so that quote is more of a paraphrase (almost certainly one of the numerous KS bashing threads).

What has me thinking - if Rich didn't want this site to become another KS then why has it, over the past year or so, done nothing, but evolve in the direction of the very thing that it was not supposed to or wanted to be?

I remember there was even a lot of bashing against the mods that jeff brought into KS to help police his site. His site was growing and he saw he needed help and so he bit the bullet and found help. If Rich wanted this site to be a hobby, why go crazy trying to turn it into another KS - adding all the numerous discussion forums and classifies and photo galleries, etc.? That is a huge workload to deal with all that. Rich is burned out because he keeps adding to the workload and, unlike Jeff, does not really want to bite the bullet and LET people help him reduce that workload. There were many suggestions made by people here, good suggestions, on how to help ease the workload in all manners of ways. Those suggestions were essentially thrown out the window in favor of just using money to fix all problems. And if money can't fix the problems, oh let's turn the lights off and lock the doors for good.

We all know the draw of this site is not the discussion forums - it is the BOI. I just can't seem to grasp how the nature of this new business model (charging people to FULLY use the BOI) can be successful in the long run.

Rich, don't you think if Jeff could have gotten away with charging people to use the basic idea that draws people to his site, he would have? His draw is the discussion forums. That's what generates the traffic that draws in the advertisers and those people with the money who pay for the classifieds and to sponsor forums, etc. If he were to start charging everyone to use those discussion forums, the site would tank pretty quick. People are not going to be willing to pay to use his discussion forums, but yet it is those very same disucssion forums that MAKE him his money through indirect means.


Charging to fully use the BOI (not just view, but post), yes, you will get SOME people willing to pay, but in the long run I honestly think you are setting this site up for failure. It happens time and time again, when a webowner alienates the majority of their userbase those people will go elsewhere and the site will suffer the results. IF this site fails because of the new business model - no one will be able to blame KS for taking those people away from you. How many people come here from KS simply because they can't post complaints against people over there? Their rules directly prohibit such posts and as a direct result they come HERE where it is acceptable, nay expected. Only now those people finding their way here will see they can't post without pony-up of money. IF this site fails, no one will be able to blame those other websites that people will migrate to. They will only be filling that void you are creating and they won't be able to do as good a job of it because the people will be scattered - not gathered centrally.

The thing is here, the unique feature about the BOI, is that this is a CENTRAL gathering area for the reptile industry and hobbyists for a specific purpose - inquiries and warnings about those in the business. That is the entire purpose of the BOI is it not? If you chase away/scatter your userbase to numerous other websites where they then staret posting their BOI type gripes and complaints, how does this serve the reptile community at large?


yes, I am sure this is falling on deaf ears as you've already decided your course of action, but I still feel the need to say it while I still at least have the ability to say (post) it.


Adrian

 

[Otter_23]

Rich,
Although you had no intention of the site growing to the size it has, don't you think that is a good thing? I guess I would see it as an achievement that you came up with an idea that people liked, but at times I personally feel that you see it as a burden and a curse. Being told that if you don't agree with paying a fee to use the boi you are a crybaby, vampire, leech, cheap etc... sets a tone. Sets the tone that you aren't wanted nor needed. I don't always agree with some posted speed limits and if anyone would listen I would voice it but does that mean I won't use the road? I also see the traffic you are getting as indicitive to the whole industry. It means to me that a lot more people are becoming involved in reptiles etc... which in turn means more sales of your animals.
I flip flop back and forth myself on this whole issue and I truely understand where you are coming from I also understand the sacrifices you have made towards this site. I just don't fully agree with the decision to make the boi exclusive to those that pay (I know you can still view). From the stand point of a hobbiest I don't have the funds at this time to make this a priority. I hope in the future to have some breeding experience with my reptiles and may choose to become a contributor, but at this point with purchasing set ups, stock, and still learning it isn't a priority. I think that the argument about making it harder for bad guys to do what they do is weak at best. They will still rip people off and in all honesty how many people have been banned and circumvented the banning to continue creating havoc? There are only 46 listed on the banned list out of those 46 listed only 7 have fines because of bypassing ban. Out of 17,000 members that comes out to about .0004 percent. Is this percent really causing so much grief that it needs to be a paid for privelege? I do believe the fee for the boi is because it is the draw at this point. From a business point of view it makes may make sense to charge for what is drawing people in. I just think that you will lose those who need the boi the most and that is the casual hobbiest and new entrepenuers who doesn't have much experience in the reptile world and is not sure who to trust. I do believe a lot of bad guys will fly under the radar.
My last concern is the tension between TRR and faunas. I know it's a he started it kind of deal but both sites serve specific needs and I guess I would just like to see the industry be working together to continue helping educate people and growing. Everyone wins when more people are involved and raising happy healthy herps. The war room serves it's purpose as does the BOI. I just would like to see one big community rather than many big kingsnake like corporations, cause in the end it will in my opinion destroy everything all of you old timers (no disrespect intended) and experienced breeders have worked to achieve. These are just a few of my opinions and I'm just trying to bring a different perspective to everything. By the way Rich I don't hate you or see you as a villian I may be wrong in what I think may happen and to be honest I hope I am. I just don't want to see such a useful thing disappear and lose the power it once had. I also would like to thank you for at least giving me the option to voice my opinion whether you agree or disagree.

Thanks
Mark Westberg

 

[Vince]

Rich,
I also would like to thank you for at least giving me the option to voice my opinion whether you agree or disagree.

take advantage while it is still free to do so.


is it really that small of a %? from what I understand that was one of the main reasons.

 

[reptilebreeder]

Rich,
From the stand point of a hobbiest I don't have the funds at this time to make this a priority. I hope in the future to have some breeding experience with my reptiles and may choose to become a contributor, but at this point with purchasing set ups, stock, and still learning it isn't a priority.

Call me crazy, but I can't believe how many people complain about this. We are talking about $10 f'ing dollars!

I can see the argument from a philisophical point of view, in fact I had/have those same sentiments about why the BOI may be better if it is free. It is however a moot point. I believe in the long run it will make the BOI better.

Maybe, I'm being too critical, but I think that someone who is hoping to get into this Business/hobby and is now purchasing setups, and particularly stock, and can't find $10 in change and/or doesn't think it's worth it, no offense, but one could wonder if that frugalness? isn't going to affect your purchasing of stock.

It just seems to me that at this point in your endeavors, investing $10 so that you can participate in the BOI, would be a wise business (even as a hobbiest) move, and would be a top priority.

 

[shrap]

I too question how this is going to effect the BOI. Damn folks, even Rich said his crystal ball is broke and is not sure of the outcome of this. No one is. Yet it is something that needs to be done for many reasons that has been outlined many times. I for one can see both sides of the argument, hell I have been on both sides, there are many valid points coming from both sides.

Yet the reality, regardless of our philosophical view points, is that parts of Fauna is going paid membership. No ifs, ands or buts. So we as a community, if we truly believe in this community, need to ante up treat it like a community. It is that simple. I personally do not think Rich is being unreasonable in any way with the price structures he is offering.

I can completely understand people not paying for philosophical reasons. Yet I can not understand those people who say what a great community it is, what a great resource it is, what a great place of knowledge it is and what a great place of entertainment it is, yet feel like they are being victimized by being asked to spend $10. I make $30,000 a year. I am a single parent of a 10 year old daughter and have never seen a dime of child support in 8 years, I have a mortage and bills like eveyone else. I have no problem finding the extra $10.

If people truly believe in this community (and I guess that really is the question, isn't it? Do you believe?) then the $10 would not even be an issue, would it?

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I too question how this is going to effect the BOI. Damn folks, even Rich said his crystal ball is broke and is not sure of the outcome of this. No one is. Yet it is something that needs to be done for many reasons that has been outlined many times. I for one can see both sides of the argument, hell I have been on both sides, there are many valid points coming from both sides.

Yet the reality, regardless of our philosophical view points, is that parts of Fauna is going paid membership. No ifs, ands or buts. So we as a community, if we truly believe in this community, need to ante up treat it like a community. It is that simple. I personally do not think Rich is being unreasonable in any way with the price structures he is offering.

I can completely understand people not paying for philosophical reasons. Yet I can not understand those people who say what a great community it is, what a great resource it is, what a great place of knowledge it is and what a great place of entertainment it is, yet feel like they are being victimized by being asked to spend $10. I make $30,000 a year. I am a single parent of a 10 year old daughter and have never seen a dime of child support in 8 years, I have a mortage and bills like eveyone else. I have no problem finding the extra $10.

If people truly believe in this community (and I guess that really is the question, isn't it? Do you believe?) then the $10 would not even be an issue, would it?

Eloquently stated Sammy.

Folks, it boils down to one very easy to digest concept. Does the value of this site and the time, sweat and effort put into it by Rich merit a nominal fee? We are talking $10 per year here for complete access to the BOI, not to mention all the other wonderful features and forums. That's 83 cents per month, 19 cents a week and just under 3 cents per day. To anyone who conducts any business at all online in this community it is an absolute no-brainer. If you have a fundamental dislike of "pay sites", I don't profess to understand it but I respect your right to opt out of this wonderful resource. But look at what you are giving up. Without a doubt this is the most free speech friendly reptile site on the web. Posts are not deleted here for content and no one can bully a thread off this site.

I was genuinely surprised at the resistance some had to this minor change in structure. There are a fair number of you that will be sorely missed if you decide to abandon this site due to this change. I sincerely believe however that the number of contributing members who depart will be small. And by contributing I mean active members, not necessarily members who have donated in the past.

Rich, as a long time member, I supppport this change 100%