Terms of Sale Anger

[Seamus Haley]

This isn't really a new topic, but the older threads are REALLY old so I figured a rekindled discussion might be worthwhile.

I actually just finished reading an old thread on the BOI concerning the interpretation of a seller's guarantee and what kind of responsibility a buyer accepts upon replying in an affirmative fashion, but in reading it, the "guarantee" offered by the seller sickened me in both it's content and the selective application. Essentially the seller refused to be responsible for shipping costs, didn't guarantee animals under a huge list of conditions, stated that shipping dates wouldn't be confirmed prior to actually handing the animals over to the carrier and gave their buyers an hour after the shipment arrived to make contact about any problems... an HOUR!

Bunch of absolutely ridiculous ways for a seller to duck culpability and sell crap animals or use poor shipping methods and end up without any guilt or responsibility for the sale.

So pretty much, the following is a couple lists... things I think a seller should and should not be responsible for, things I think a buyer should and should not be responsible for...

Seller responsibilities-

• A seller owns the animals until they are physically in the buyer's posession. This means that carrier mistakes are the fault of the seller, as they were commited by the seller's chosen delivery agent. The buyer paid for a living, presumably healthy animal. If they don't get it, you owe them a refund.
• The seller is responsible for the method, time and manner of shipping. They have the goods or animals being sent, they have the final call about when and how it's safe to do so. Animals can be sent anywhere, year round if they're packaged properly. If a seller does not feel comfortable enough with their packaging methods and starts adding qualifications when they feel they are not responsible, then they have no business shipping animals under those conditions. Examples are "No guarantee if temperature is below forty degrees or above eighty degrees anywhere along shipping route" or "No live arrival guarantee on amphibians" If you can't ship safely under certain conditions or for certain species... DON'T SHIP
• A buyer is purchasing live, healthy animals in most cases. Clearly there may be exceptions to this, but if a buyer pays for a live, healthy animal they need to be given some time to verify the condition of the animals. Insisting that contact be made immediately upon delivery or within a short period of time is absurd. A buyer needs more than an hour to verify fully that the animals paid for are exactly what they have reccieved. In my opinion, twenty four hours to observe the animal's appearance and behavior is about the minimum which is acceptable. Any less than that and a proper and thorough assesment can not be made.
• Certain traits of an animal are muteable, certain traits are not. Health can change if an animal is kept improperly by your buyers. Gender, genetics, phenotype, species and so forth can not (er... normally anyway, for herps). Not every buyer will know how to sex an animal or do a proper fecal exam in their home, a longer duration of time should be allowed to verify such selling points as "Female" or "Parasite Free" or "Candoia aspera" How much longer... I dunno. But longer.
• Shipping costs are the seller's responsibility in every direction they need to go. If you send someone a dead/sick/mutilated/misrepresented animal, any refunds need to cover the cost of shipping paid to get the animal to the buyer, and if needed, to get it back to the seller. The shipment is a service the buyer is paying the seller for, it's part of the total sale and the buyer shouldn't have to pay FedEx/USPS/UPS/Airborne/Delta to correct the seller's screw ups.

Non-Responsibilities of a Seller-

• A seller has no responsibility to ensure that you are legally allowed to keep any given species. They need to ensure that their shipping is legal, but can not be expected to settle fights with your town/county/landlord/parents. If they can legally ship an animal to you, the rest is up to you.
• A seller is not married to a sale for the remainder of their/your life unless they agree to be in advance. Most sellers will be sympathetic to problems occuring immediately outside of their guarantee period, but they have no real responsibility eight days into their seven day health guarantee. If you approach them politely, they *might* do something for you, but are not obligated.
• To a seller "It arrived and looks great." means exactly that. It's a sign of a happy customer and, if that's all the communication they get by the end of their individual guarantee period, the sale is over. Don't come back outside of the guarantee duration and start saying the animals looked sick upon arrival or the packaging was beaten to hell or the animals were missing important body parts. The second a happy customer hits the end of the guarantee, that animal is THEIRS.
• Similarly, if a seller offers full compensation according to their stated terms and a buyer rejects it, sale complete, end of story.

The above was pretty much off the top of my head, early on a sunday morning... I'm positive that there are situations I forgot to mention that either myself or others can add... I'm also pretty sure there might be some dissenting opinions, since I know a few sellers who have terms of sale which directly contradict a few of my above points. I'm open to discussion about any of it... I welcome it, I encourage it, I appreciate it.

I should also add that there are some situations which fall outside of everything above. Wholesale situations are vastly different than a single animal sale, or the mix-mash "One of those, six of these, two of those" kinds of orders an end consumer or retail reseller might engage in. Rescues and adoptions are also governed by their own sets of "rules that everybody agrees to"

 

[dwedeking]

1. If you don't like a person's terms, move on. No one is forcing you to buy from them.

2. I didn't quit working for someone else, who dictated the rules and conditions of my daily life for 8 - 14 hours just to hand the reins of that yoke over to a new "boss". I took on the responsibility and stress of building a business from nothing to allow me the freedom to do business as I see fit, to succeed or fail on my parameters.

3. Personally our terms are the bare minimal that we'll do to satisfy the customer. It is a way to protect us from unscrupulous customers (see 4.). We will commonly step above and beyond our terms to make people happy.

4. Your conditions are all fine and dandy when the deal is between two people who are honest. There are bad buyers out there that we need protection from as well. I've had people tell me the animal never arrived when I have their signature from UPS. I've had people tell me we sent the wrong animal, when the number marking has been altered (we never numbered the animals as high as the "new" number was) and the pattern pictures of the animal matched our original photos. Granted these scenarios are less than 1% but still with the margins represented online we have to protect ourselves to remain liquid.

Now that we've had rants on both sides can we get back to keeping herps?

 

[The BoidSmith]

A seller owns the animals until they are physically in the buyer's posession. This means that carrier mistakes are the fault of the seller, as they were commited by the seller's chosen delivery agent. The buyer paid for a living, presumably healthy animal. If they don't get it, you owe them a refund.

Seamus,

In my opinion this one needs an amendment. The above is true only IF the buyer receives the animal at first attempted delivery. We have heard of countless ocasions where the package was left at the doorsteps or was picked up by a friend or neighbor.

Regards.

 

[Seamus Haley]

In my opinion this one needs an amendment. The above is true only IF the buyer receives the animal at first attempted delivery. We have heard of countless ocasions where the package was left at the doorsteps or was picked up by a friend or neighbor.

Good point. As I said, it was a fairly quick list, open to amendment and discussion and I fully agree that a buyer has responsibilities in a transaction as well.

If you don't like a person's terms, move on. No one is forcing you to buy from them.

That's an excellent point as well... I was trying to open a broader discussion surrounding what terms I felt were and were not acceptable from a logic/ethics standpoint as opposed to attacking any particular seller's terms. If I might ask... which items did I list that seemed to be taken a bit personally (or I may be reading your post all wrong)? Would you be open to discussing your reasons for having terms which might conflict with what I wrote above?

 

[dwedeking]

Seamus,

I don't have an issue with most of your terms that you pointed out and actually feel that we have more liberal terms than what you pointed out.

What I feel a lot of people fail to realize is that there is risk involved in both directions during a transaction, which is amplified when done via online/mail order. A large percentage (95%+) of transactions go off without a hitch. But a seller's terms establish the level of risk they feel comfortable with during the transaction. It may have nothing to do with the quality of animals or service but rather their personal experiences with getting burned by customers.

Personally I feel a companies terms should be as liberal as possible to encourage more sales but at the same time protect themselves from the "bad" customers out there. For us, this is a carefully balanced equation that is reviewed on a very frequent basis. Too liberal and your scammed all the time and out of business, too strict and your not generating sales and out of business.

 

[WebSlave]

Here's a situation related to terms of sale that has bothered me. I haven't hit it yet, but I am certain it is coming one of these days.

Let's say your guarantee period is 30 days from delivery of the animals. On day 29 your customer calls you and says that one of the animals just doesn't seem right. Do you extend the guarantee period for this animal? If so, for how long? Or do you put the customer on the spot to have them decide right then and there to either return the animal or accept it as is?

This can apply to shorter time periods as well, of course. Does someone contacting you about a POSSIBLE problem right before your guarantee period expires "stop the clock"?

 

[SPJ]

What about these. My terms/identifiacation sheet is also included with the snake when sent. They have the photo ID and pertinent info about the animal on the top of this form for each animal sold.

One of these terms came about because someone wanted a refund due to mites and when I asked where they housed the animal I sent them they told me it was with other animals (not even the same species). I also had someone request a refund because they did not realize how much the setup for the snake would cost.


Terms of Sale:

Payments:
Paypal is accepted thru my email address.
Postal Money orders
Personal checks – must clear prior to shipping.

Shipping:
Airborne/DHL overnight to your door.

Guarantee:
Live Arrival:
Live arrival guaranteed ONLY if the package is signed for on the FIRST delivery attempt.
NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRIER DELAYS OR MISHANDLING.
In the event of a DOA, you must notify me immediately. If you do not notify me within 2 hours after arrival then you WILL NOT be entitled to a claim.
In order to have a valid DOA claim you must return the dead animal to me using the enclosed shipping label along with this terms/identification sheet. Do not dispose of the animal. If the dead animal is not sent back to me, I WILL NOT consider any claim to be valid. If the terms/identification sheet is not sent back to me, I WILL NOT consider any claim to be valid.
If your claim is valid then I will either:
1] Refund your money
OR
2] Replace the animal if another one of equal value is available.

Health:
All animals are guaranteed to be outwardly healthy, feeding, and parasite free when leaving my facility and are guaranteed to be this way for 24 hours after arrival.
This guarantee is VOID if the animal is placed in a community enclosure. It must be kept separated from other animals during the 24 hour period.

Buyers Remorse:
NO refunds will be issued after the receipt of the animal due to buyer’s remorse. It is the buyer’s responsibility to research the care and expense needed to properly care for any animal purchased.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Does someone contacting you about a POSSIBLE problem right before your guarantee period expires "stop the clock"?

I think that's up in the air and would depend on the individual communication you had with your customer. Ideally you'd get some fairly detailed information about the situation AND an idea of what they want done about it... and then go from that point. I think the seller should have the out to offer an appropriate refund and cut their losses, but if they're sympathetic to the situation, they might choose to extend the guarantee period for a dfined amount of time to see what develops.

NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRIER DELAYS OR MISHANDLING.

That I have an issue with in most cases.

As a typical scenario, a buyer will approach a seller express an interest in an animal and pay for the animal and shipping. The buyer is paying the SELLER for delivery. The seller generally chooses an agent to perform the services they have been paid for. Until that animal is physically in the buyer's posession, they certainly do not own it. Now Steve... you state it in your terms, so the buyer agrees to it but that would keep me from entering a transaction with you... If the agent you selected to deliver my animal and perform the services I paid you for decides to run the box over with a truck and smash everything inside it, I would want my money back.

 

[SPJ]

Now Steve... you state it in your terms, so the buyer agrees to it but that would keep me from entering a transaction with you... If the agent you selected to deliver my animal and perform the services I paid you for decides to run the box over with a truck and smash everything inside it, I would want my money back.

In that type of situation, I would have to agree with you. I would end up refunding the money and then filing a claim.

I make sure that I do not even move the money from my paypal account until after I am sure the customer is happy with their purchase. This way if there ever is a problem, I can refund the money immediately.

My terms are constantly changing to reflect what happens with various sales.

I had never really thought about the carrier part this way before. Now that you bring it up this way, I may have to reconsider it. It might just be a deterrent to some potential customers. I have never had a problem with the carriers (except for late deliveries) and no one has ever bought from me has questioned the carrier part before.

Definitely food for thought especially since I have a package going out tomorrow with these terms and ID attached to it.

 

[sschind]

Steve

I don't want to tell you how to set your policies, but I am with Seamus on this one. I will not do business with anyone who uses the "not responsible for carrier error" type TOS. As Seamus said. I paid you to deliver me a live healthy animal. If UPS loses the box or if their plane is delayed and the animal arrives dead it is up to the seller to make good on the deal. When I sell non living things online (ebay for example) I will always put in the option for insurance. If the person opts to pay for it great, but if not, I will still make good if the item arrives damaged. If it is a high dollar item I will purchase insurance myself, or if it is a small amount I will just take the chance. Of course, as was pointed out, if the buyer is not around to receive the package on the first try then that changes things.

Steve Schindler

 

[Seamus Haley]

Pretty old thread. Bumping it anyway.

Some similar discussions have arisen about specific individuals on the BOI lately; where the question of the legality and fairness (playground rules) of a TOS have become a subject.

This isn't the forum for discussions about a specific person's TOS, unless someone wants to volunteer their own for discussion of course, but given the thousands of new members that have registered since this thread was last replied to I'd be interested in seeing some more opinions and perspectives.

Of additional interest to me lately has become the legality of a dealer's TOS. The TOS are essentially a company policy, sometimes the laws surrounding sales contradict the terms offered by some dealers. In my mind, the legal option will always be the correct option- regardless of what a vendor says their policies are, they have an obligation to obey the law.

I found out pretty recently that one of the neighboring counties in Massachusetts mandated a fourteen day health guarantee on the sale of all live animals. The law in question was drafted with livestock sales in mind but the wording is such that it applies to pet sales as well. This directly contradicts the terms of sale as posted by at one of of the pet shops inside those borders, which only offers 24 hours on fish and amphibians, and 48 hours on reptiles. A... person I know... is going a few rounds with the shop over the issue of a russian tortoise loaded with parasites that didn't actually produce a fecal sample for three days after it was purchased. The shop is denying responsibility since they weren't informed until after their guarantee period expired- the customer is citing a pre-existing condition and the county law which mandates a longer period of dealer responsibility.

I'm real curious to know how such a scenario would play out in the case of a remote sale- the buyer paying through a card, check or money order hundreds of miles away from the the dealer. Which location is the point of sale? Which laws surrounding sales (which exist in quite a few places) apply?

 

[rosebud945]

Seamus, I am an extremely busy person, so forgive me for asking, but where do you find the laws that pertain to animal sales in your state or any state for that matter? I am very new to all of this.

I think that a seller who stands by the health of his or her animals can and should extend a reasonable guarantee. I bought from someone (wish I could remember who. Getting old or too stressed ) who offered a two week guarantee, and the animal(s) that I bought were in great shape and I never had a problem. But I can also see that two weeks is long enough for a bad keeper to really mess up an animal, if not kill it. Perhaps this person that I bought from had a sense that I know what I am doing, either through a phone conversation or email exchange. I do know that the better vendors that I have bought from took the time to feel me out on my knowledge of the animal(s) that I was buying, and one even send a care sheet with the animal. Their risk is obviously lowered if I know how to care for that animal.

I think that a 14 day qualified guarantee is reasonable, especially if that 14 day guarantee is a standard measure at state and local levels.

 

[Southern Wolf]

IF anyone wants to go to my terms page on my site (just click my logo) I dont have a problem discussing them here. Its just way to long to post here. I spent along time developing them... and they are definately not set in stone. Id actually like to hear your thoughts. When I set up my terms I did research from some of the big guys sites... and some smaller sites.

Prob the biggest one Seamus will have a problem with is I only have a live arrival guarantee. And this is why... We have all done something real stupid and it ended up injuring or killing an animal sometimes in a short amount of time. Why should the seller be held responsible for your stupidity (Im not saying this to be mean... just stating a fact).

The way I see it... and it may be wrong... but our TOS are set up to shield and protect us from those that want to scam us. We see folks every day on the BOI trying to get over on folks.... why not protect ourselves with some stiff TOS.

But on the flip side...

Like my logo says.... Quality comes first! Doesnt matter if its my animals or my customer service.

IF someone contacts me a couple days after the sale... and says "my (insert animal here) died. Im going to ask ALOT of questions... and if I am satisfied they were housing my animal correctly.... then Im gonna extend them the excellent customer service that they deserve. However if the buyer doesnt have a clue and cooked my animal.... why should I have to cover their mistake because I say I have a 7 day health guarantee or whatever in my TOS.

I will give you a real life situation that happend to me last year. I sold a Snow Cornsnake to a customer that was about 2 hours away from me. That snake had no problems when it left my place and was eating fine for me. Two and a half weeks go by and they contact me and said they they could not get it to eat. Now I have absolutely no clue what they were doing (on in this case... not doing). I asked them if they would bring it back to me and I would replace it with another Snow. They brought it back... still looked in good shape and I offered them another Snow. They left and I waited an hour then tried to feed the one that "wouldnt eat". It ended up eating just fine for me... and is currently growing up to be one of my future breeders.

Our TOS should be there to protect us.... but IF there was a guinuine (sp?) problem with that animal... then we as breeders should step up to the plate and make it right... no matter what our TOS states.

I welcome all comments.

 

[rosebud945]

Kevin,
Your TOS doesn't sound like a means for you to escape any and all responsibility as it does other vendors that we all know who don't remain flexible. I plan to question customers too, who complain that an animal died, whether it dies during the guarantee period or not. But I guess that you have to put something in writing to protect you legally from idiots and scammers. It really is difficult to gage a person's honesty and level of experience with a particular species from a distance.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

I hope this isn't too off topic, but I have a question regarding the TOS.

What about those that CHANGE their TOS?

This recently became an issue with a friend of mine. After he voiced he was unhappy, the lady changed her TOS. She then swore profusely that she never did, yet later stated in an e-mail (to me) that she changed it specifically because of him.

What happens then? should people screen shot everyone's TOS when they plan to purchase from them?

 

[rosebud945]

Well, regardless of whether or not your friend was being a pain, I think it is bad business to change your TOS during a transaction. If your TOS has a weakness, then the seller should honor it, chalk the loss up to lessons earned, and then change the TOS.

You know, I am really glad that this issue came up. Up to now, I have been thinking like a customer, but I am in the middle of my first, very successful breeding year, so this discussion is really opening my eyes. I checked a friend's TOS. This is a person that I respect the hell out of. He is a truly good guy with regard to his husbandry and his business ethics, but he has had some terrible dealings with scammers and idiots. I'll have to ask him if he started out like me, ie, naively idealistic, optimistic and trusting, but he now offers only a live arrival with a health guarantee. Now this sounds different than just a live arrival, because he is guaranteeing the health of the animal. he just doesn't put a set time frame into writing. He also sends a care sheet with every animal that he sells, and is available to the customer with advice from before the point of sale on.

 

[Twizted Paths]

What happens then? should people screen shot everyone's TOS when they plan to purchase from them?

It's a good idea. If you don't have the seller e-mail a picture of the animal(s) being purchased with itemized pricing screenshots of the ad are a good idea as well.

I'd also like an answer for Rich's question.

Let's say your guarantee period is 30 days from delivery of the animals. On day 29 your customer calls you and says that one of the animals just doesn't seem right. Do you extend the guarantee period for this animal? If so, for how long? Or do you put the customer on the spot to have them decide right then and there to either return the animal or accept it as is?

This can apply to shorter time periods as well, of course. Does someone contacting you about a POSSIBLE problem right before your guarantee period expires "stop the clock"?

What about the people who want refunded vet bills & the seller never said to take it in?

And a blanket statement of If you're not happy with it send it back within x amount of time? And if they don't that's it?

I always thought the Not Responsible for Carrier Delays meant that even if it was late that the buyer still had to stay home to receive the package to keep the Live Arrival Guarantee & that the seller wouldn't be responsible for lost wages if say the buyer was scheduled for second shift but the delivery was delayed and the Buyer had to miss work to sign for the package (in order to keep the Alive Arrival Guarantee)

Isn't a TOS meant to protect the seller?

These are all honest questions.

My drafts are scattered in a bunch of notebooks since I won't need it for awhile yet. I will post it for critiquing when I get it together.

Thanks for bringing this topic back up

 

[Seamus Haley]

Isn't a TOS meant to protect the seller?

Little of both actually.

Terms of Service agreements are something that are put forth which give both the customer and the dealer an understanding of what is expected. It details the nature of the transaction, the scope of the services or product, the responsibilities of both individuals and the time line that they're both involved with one another over.

A good TOS will protect the seller from being made responsible for things completely outside of the realm of their control. It's a small shield against scammers- although I think most of the situations which arise where the dealer might be asked to take a financial loss are probably honest differences of... opinion.

It also tells the buyer what to expect though, it tells them where the seller's responsibilities begin and end. It can actually be a point of sale for a dealer if their terms of service- which generally include the details of any guarantees- show a great deal of confidence in the product and the after-sale-care they're willing to give the customer. The longer the guarantee, the more confident the seller appears and the more appealing it is to a customer.

Dealers can, of course, always choose to violate their terms of service in favor of the customer if they choose to do so. Animal has a health issue two days after the guarantee expired; let's talk about it and make sure you're still happy with the deal when we're done. They arrived alive but died four hours later; I agree that's not your fault, I'm very sorry it happened, let's get you a refund immediately and if you wouldn't mind, could you send the bodies to me for necropsy?

They aren't obligated to do so though, which is where the TOS can begin to either strengthen or erode buyer confidence.

The terms of a sale are dictated when payment is made, for that question regarding changing things after the fact. Each individual sale occurs at a specific time, the TOS is set at that moment. If something goes wrong and a dealer decides to change their terms of service to reflect whatever bad experience they just had, fine- but it only applies to sales that are made after it's been changed. It's not retroactively applied and only a scumbag or an idiot would think they could switch up the terms of a sales contract in the middle of a deal.

Not responsible for carrier mishandling/delays is generally a clause used by unscrupulous people to refuse to make good on a deal when a shipping company stomps on a live animal and kills it during shipping. It's also used by a lot of decent folks who just copied most of their TOS from someone else's TOS without editing it or writing it themselves. I suppose the best possible interpretation would be that the dealer will not refund shipping costs if a shipment is late but the contents are completely intact- but it's most common citation is by bad guys who are happy to take a customer's money and then refuse to give it back if the customer gets a flattened box three days later full of greasy smears that used to be a live animal.

Personally, I won't buy from anyone who denies their responsibility for delivering the product they promised. I pay a dealer, I do not pay their shipping agent. The details inherent in the dealer subcontracting for delivery are between that dealer and their shipping agent, not me.

That is also one of the common clauses that I am uncertain of the legality of. It definitely doesn't *sound* legal to accept a customer's money, have the package and product damaged during shipping and then not issue a refund or replacement. It sounds an awful lot like theft.

 

[rosebud945]

That is also one of the common clauses that I am uncertain of the legality of. It definitely doesn't *sound* legal to accept a customer's money, have the package and product damaged during shipping and then not issue a refund or replacement. It sounds an awful lot like theft.

This is an interesting question, and I imagine it doesn't have an easy or clear cut answer. Can the seller be held accountable for damage or loss if the carrier can't? Can the seller be held accountable for shipping damage or loss if the buyer agrees ahead of time to that portion of a TOS or signs a waiver? I have learned only in the last few days that the more popular carrier, Fed Ex, does not accept responsibility for the contents of a package that contains a live animal. The only refund that a shipper or customer can get is a refund of the shipping charges.

In the past few days, I have begun to understand why even reputable sellers issue only a live arrival or live arrival health guarantee, but I am with you. Putting the burden of loss on the customer for real carrier mishandling seems wrong. However, if it can be proven that the customer is not home to collect and sign for the package or gives permission for the package to be left and the package is damaged on or stolen from the customer's door step, then the shipping guarantee should be null, but I imagine that the seller has to put that stipulation in writing. I just read a post in the BOI forum that describes a terrible customer who was not only not home for delivery but also made no attempt to collect the package past that point. Clearly, the onus for that lizard's death is on the customer.

I think that delivery mishaps are relatively rare, at least in overnight delivery, especially when the box is clearly marked as having live content, and are easily proven given the paperwork involved. Correct me if I am wrong. If it is relatively rare and carrier mishaps as opposed to scum bag tactics or idiot customer behavior can be proven with a paper trail, then this is one of those types of loss that a business person, ie, the seller, should expect. Companies in just about every other industry allow for certain kinds of loss and expenditure, so why not a herp seller?

 

[rosebud945]

One more thing. Shouldn't a live arrival guarantee inherently over carrier mishaps? How can you issue a live arrival guarantee AND a carrier mishap waiver? These two things don't seem mutually exclusive.