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Terry Lilley is at it again

pch101

pch101

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Good old Terry Lilley is up to no good again as usual. He is advertising the Silver Tanimbars as Leucistic Blue-tongues, and using my pic in the ad! When Terry originally traded Jeff Litterll (another real piece of work) for some of his Tanimbars, I vouched for the skinks, and I spoke with Terry about them, and I filled him on the genetics behind them. I told him they are NOT Leucistic, and that they might possibly be anerytheristic. I told him that some specimens do fade with age, and become almost patternless, but that they are not leucistic. He asked If he could use my pic to advertise them, and I told him that would be fine. Last night I saw that he was misrepresenting the skinks and My pic. So I responded to his ad with this: "Please remove my pic from your ad immediately." Today the pic was still up, so I replied again with this: "Remove my pic from your ad at once." This is what I got back as his response:

"I will remove the photo but you are sure an a**hole! (sorry I had to edit that out) Dont you have anything better to do? And by the way you gave me permission to use the photo so why dont you go screw your skinks and just leave me alone!"

My response: I have been very forgiving up until now. I did not give you permission to use it in misrepresenting the skinks. They are not Leucistic, and I suggest that you use some common sense and remove my pic form your deceptive ad. I own the photo, and I have the actual photo to prove it. I would have had no problem had you represented them honestly. People associate me with that pic, and if you choose not to represent the pic and the skinks honestly, then leave me and my photos out of it. I do not want to be involved or connected with your lies in anyway, and now that you have chosen to show your true colors, You should not expect me to be changing my mind. I also would not count on me for any referrals, and I get calls every day from people looking for rare BTS. Take your own pic and use it, but leave me out of your lies!

Well it is still up. What a guy. If anyone has any question in regard to my knowledge of Blue-tongued Skinks. I will say that I have devoted the last 10 years almost entirely to BTS, and I have published articles on them in Reptiles Magazine and Reptiles USA Annual. I also have a book in the works on the subject of Tiliqua.

James Wilson
 
???

I am not sure if that was a response to me or to him. I am guessing it was ment for Mr. Lilley.

James Wilson
 
Yeah, it was meant towards Lilley.

I was making a mockery of his getting mad at you for stealing YOUR pic. :hehe:
 
Terry Lilley has been this way for the 25 or more years that I've known of him. Terry Lilley is Terry Lilley. I'm amazed that after all this time and all of the things he's been involved in that there's anyone in the herp world that doesn't know of him and his reputation.
 
I have known his reputation for about the last 5 years now, and I am not at all surprised about this. I simply feel it is necessary to inform others every time he pulls one of his stunts.

James Wilson
 
Gean, are you sure you did not sell a BTS to James Fenn in Tucson. I have never been to a Tucson herp show.

James Wilson
 
Oh thats right!!! It has been a while since I have seen him... Sorry 'bout that. I was wondering when he had stuff published!
 
Ya John, he is colorfull indeed.
Ane he calls ME an A**hole. I guess he has just gotten a big head due to all of his fame here on the BOI :hehe:
 
Yikes! my apologies to the moderator(s). I forgot to to put my name on that last post :slamit:

James Wilson
 
Terry Lilley has e-mailed me numerous times in regard to this thread, and is apparently quite upset. At Mr. Lilley's request, I am going to post all of our communications that we have had from the time I contacted him in regard to his ad up until this point. I will print his comments in red (even when I am quoting him in my messages), and I will leave mine in Black. The first 3 messages I sent him were through KS in response to his ad, and I do not have copies, but what I have here is almost, if not exactly, what I said in the first 3 messages.

1st message: NOT LEUCISTIC

2nd message (sent immediately after the first message): Please Remove my pic from the ad at once.

3rd Message (next day): Remove my pic from your ad immediately


I will remove the photo but you are sure an asshole! Dont you have anything better to do? And by the way you gave me permission to use the photo so why dont you go screw your skinks and just leave me alone!

Terry,
I have been very forgiving up until now. I did not give you permission to use it in misrepresenting the skinks. They are not Leucistic, and I suggest that you use some common sense and remove my pic form your deceptive ad. I own the photo, and I have the actual photo to prove it. I would have had no problem had you represented them honestly. People associate me with that pic, and if you choose not to represent the pic and the skinks honestly, then leave me and my photos out of it. I do not want to be involved or connected with your lies in anyway, and now that you have chosen to show your true colors, You should not expect me to be changing my mind. I also would not count on me for any referrals, and I get calls every day from people looking for rare BTS. Take your own pic and use it, but leave me out of your lies!
James Wilson

I am a bit confussed about your response. Are you or are you not going to remove my pic. I see it is still up. Your childish name calling is totally unnecessary, but typical.
James

Dear Mr. Tiliquaman,
Unless you have been to Tanimbar Island and you have done DNA test on all of these skinks then you ere extremely liable for your quotes about me and my business. Do you just want to give me your attorneys phone number to save time in filing a law suit? Guys like you that think they know everything about reptiles should be put in their place! Remove your quotes as they are untrue and damaging. I happen to know more about the genetics of these skinks than you may think and yes I have done DNA testing on them! Just back off and mind your own business. You may have a big ego and you may think you know everything about skinks but you are damaging the reputation of a long term successful business and you are setting yourself up for a major lawsuit. Please have your attorney review all of the adds and emails. I have the legal right to sell my reptiles and label them as to what I believe they are, based on 20 years of experience. Just check with your attorney about that. In a public forum you do not have the legal right to do anything but say you disagree with my scientific description on the reptiles being sold. That is just fine with me if you disagree with me! Most of the reptiles being sold today are miss identified and DNA testing will show that. Scientific debate is good, slander is not!
Sincerely,
Terry Lilley

You are intitled to your opinoin. Just remove my pic from it.
james

Hi James,
I believe I did remove your photo and at your request and I wont use it again. I do have tons of my own photos I can use. I have over 5,000 photos and I often make adds so fast I dont even pay attention as to what photo I use! If you see your photo posted then just let me know and I will remove it. I have not problem with this. Now I am asking you to remove your comments from any, and all public forums to avoid a law suit. Please respond. I have contacted an attorney who has also been contacted buy several other reptile breeders who want to file a class action suit against the forum you posted in. Slander is just not going to be tolerated anymore. Scientific debate is always welcome! I do not wish to debate about these skinks with anyone as I just dont have the time and it is not important to me. As you will notice I call the skinks "leucistic type" in most of my adds. No one as of yet really knows their genetics 100%. If you want to get right down to it every time you see the words "albino boa or albino ball pythons" that is not correct! Do you slander each and every one of these people?
Sincerely,
Terry Lilley

Terry, you should realize I cannot remove posts that have been made. I would encourage you to respond to the thread with your opinion if you like. I only posted because of your reluctance to remove the pic. Had you done it when I originally asked, we would not be having this conversation. I asked you once, and you did nothing. I asked you the next day, and you sent me an unbelievably rude response in which you first agreed to remove the pic, but by the end of your message you said, and I quote "you gave me permission to use the photo so why dont you go screw your skinks and just leave me alone!" I was not sure if that meant you were not going to remove the pic, or if it was just a childish last dig at me, so I sent a third e-mail asking you to remove the pic, and explaining my reasons for the request, and another e-mail asking you for clarification in regard to your last remark. I did not get a response, and the pic was still there. At that point, it was seemed obvious to me at the time that you did not intend to remove the pic, so I waited a little over 4 hours, and then posted. Terry, I have seen you call these skinks many things, and I really do not care what you call them. It is your prerogative, I just don't want any part of it. So, thank you for removal of the pic. Call the skinks what you like (just leave me and my pic out of it). Again if had you spent your time removing the pic instead of insulting me, it would have been all over, and I would not have been prompted to post.
Have a good day,
James Wilson

You said: "If you want to get right down to it every time you see the words "albino boa or albino ball pythons" that is not correct! Do you slander each and every one of these people?" My answer is no. However, your question is irrelevant as I am not slandering anyone, and the situation you describe is totally different. Referring to an amelanistic boa as an albino is a far cry from calling these skinks Genetic Leucistic Tanimbar Island Blue-tongued Skinks (a gross misrepresentation). Another major difference is that none of them are using my photo along with their techinically incorrect descriptions. Now, if someone was to sell a Hogg Island Boa and call it an amelanistic, or an albino, I might call them on it (pic or no pic). That being said, I am not going to waste my time arguing with you about the genetics of these skinks, or what they should or should not be called. It is totally up to you, as long as I am left out of it. Terry, your question also implies that I have somehow slandered you, and we both know that I have done nothing of the sort. I may not agree with you, but I always tell the truth to the best of my ability. Thanks for your thoughts.
James

Hi James,
You just do not understand. I do my reptiles for a living and use the money for my family to feed my kids. I have been doing this for 24 years. I have thousands of clients that I teach how to breed reptiles. I work with and have produced over 125,000 reptiles. I simply don't have time to argue about a photo or ID of a skink! You have no right to slander my business on the web for millions of people to see just because you think I offended you! Just does not wash and it is true meaning of slander. I don't have the time to go on this silly forum and debate anyone. If you want to debate me on a public forum about reptile ID go right ahead. There is nothing wrong with that and I simply wont answer the request to debate. You can go on the forum and retract your words or print ALL of our emails. If you wont do that, or remove the slander, than I will simply let the attorney work on removing the entire forum and seriously go after a money judgment for damages. Because of your words I have lost a lot of money. You are probably very happy you caused that. You got your revenge for me using your photo! It cost me thousands of dollars! You win. I should had done exactly what you wanted! All because you were upset at an email or the fact that I used your photo you sent to me to use originally to sell the reptiles you produced. I kept your original emails concerning these photos! These forums that allow anyone to slander someone just because they are upset at them should be sued, and the forum along with the people who post on it should be held liable. This whole process is seriously out of control and needs to be stopped. I have been contacted by many people who are very upset at the slander posted all over this forum. Forums were started for people to share scientific information, not to be used as a form to hurt people you simply done like. This forum and others is nothing but a place for people to slander other people and it needs to be stopped!
Sincerely,
Terry Lilley
 
Take it with a grain of salt James

If memory serves, this is not the first time Mr. Lilley has threatened to sue over posts on this forum. In order to prove libel, he would have to prove that the statements you made were untrue. Since he can't do that, blow it off.
 
I also noticed that his current ad on Kingsnake

says "Leucistic Type" and makes no mention of it being a genetic trait. Geee...I wonder why that was changed.

Bottom line is that it is difficult to sue anyone for telling the truth
 
He sure likes the word slander a lot! Terry, it is not slander if it is true. Now for some clarification:
For reference, here is a quick description that I wrote, based on my observations: The Tanimbar Island blue-tongued skink is usually a light golden brown that is banded with silvery grey. They often have a yellow gold coloration that extends from its belly up on to its lower jaw and chin. Its forelimbs are basically patternless, and lighter in color than the hind limbs. The head also lacks any flecking or temporal streaking. Some specimens are basically gold all over with slightly darker drab bands. These are often referred to as the gold phase Taninbar Island Blue-tongues. There are also occasional specimens that are silver with light grey banding, and are almost white on the entire ventral surface. These are often referred to as silver phase Tanimbar Island Blue-tongues. Silver phase specimen's patterns often fade to some degree as they mature, with some loosing almost all of their patterning as they mature into adults, giving them an almost solid silver look. Here is a pic of all three naturally occurring color phases that are known to the Tanimbar Island Blue-tongue (typical on left, silver in the center, and gold on the right).

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1201

Once in a while I run into a Tanimbar with a typical or gold body and head and a silver tail as seen here on the skink on the left in this next pic (the one on the right is a silver phase.

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1203

Now since this issue is in regard to the silver phase Tanimbar Island Blue-tongue, here is the link to the pic that started all of this. It is of a yearling silver phase Tanimbar Island Blue-tongued Skink Tiliqua scincoides chimaerea taken in my back yard.

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1191

Here is a pic of what they look like as babies.

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1199

Here is a typical Silver Phase at 3 years of age

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1194

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1190

Here is the original father of the project.

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1196

Leucisim is a genetic color mutation that causes the affected specimen to have a complete lack of pigmentation, appearing milky white with bluish black eyes. I have heard more than one report from people claiming to have Leucistic Blue-tongued Skinks, and to date, none have even come close to being an actual leucistic Blue-tongue. As far as I know, Leucism has not yet been witnessed in Blue-tongued Skinks. It is very obvious that these are NOT in any way leucistic Blue-tongues. Terry was calling them Genetic Leucistic Blue-tongues in his ad. That is simply not true. There is no debate. It is just the way it is...
 
John, in the past he had been referring to them as "leucistic type" in addition to many other names like white, purple, and anerytheristic. When I mentioned in my first actual e-mail to him that I had been very forgiving up until that point, I was referring to years of him pushing the boundaries of what would be ethical and honest representation of these skinks. As soon I saw the ad on Jan 5th where he labeled them as Genetic Leucistic Blue-tongues, with my pic, I was not at all happy. I believe I was very direct with my request, but I never insulted him, in the way he did in his response to me. He really does seem to me to be almost hyper reactive in his responses.
 
I saw the ad you were referring to as well. Question James. Have there been any crossbreedings between a gold phase animal and a silver phase animal that you are aware of? If so, what did the resulting offspring look like?
 
I am do not know of any breedings that involve a silver phase with a gold phase. But I am pretty sure it has happens in the wild, as I have seen numerous Tanimbars that appeared to be silver and gold in appearance. I would also venture to say that it has happened in captivity as well. However, most people that have silvers (the less common of the 3 phases to be imported) try to avoid crossing them with the other phases.
 
The reason I asked is that in all cases I am aware of in the reptile world, leucism is a simple recessive gene. A controlled breeding between both phases that produced visual intergrades would be strong evidence that it was not true leucism.
 
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