Texas Intergrades??

[molurusbreedingcente]

This is in responce to the fantastic pictures from the fieldcollecting site below. Someone had asked on this forum or the Indigosforever about Texas Red-Throats. Looks like the throats are very red and could be a subspecies cross due to the Snakeking who operated for years in the valley area imported hundreds of west coast red-throat indigos as well as the Texas to sell. Certainly some of the rubidus could have escaped from the pits they used to house them. My response below includes another less likely scenario-of the eastern subspecies release we heard about. All of this would have occurred in the valley from a period between 1945-1960s if it occurred at all.

Todays genetic profiling of closely related subspecies is not exact and it can be difficult if not impossible to say they are intergrades at the genetic level. In the pictures the snakes appear to have much redder throats and ventrals than the Texas Indigos up around Freer and Laredo. I saw hundreds of the at dealers in the late 60's and 70's and none had a red throat. There was a rumor I heard while working reptiles at the dallas zoo, as the story goes a rancher in the valley had rattlesnakes on his land and never saw an indigosnake on the property, so he purchased a bunch "cheap" from Florida and let them go on to eat rattlesnakes. Fact or Fiction. These sure look like Red-Throated Texas Indigos to me! Very nice pictures of all the herps and habitat, great shot on the road. Which counties were you in? Starr, Zapata or down near Harlingen along the coast.

Cheers
Bill Lamoreaux

 

[epidemic]

As for the "rumor" of D. couperi being released in Texas. John Cherry related this story to me a few years ago and I have no reason to doubt such. Some say the idea of Texas ranchers doing such a thing is far fetched, due to the cost involved, but I know a few Texas ranchers, my wife breeds and trains Andalusians and Aztecas, has done so for over 20 years, and I met several while residing there many years ago. We are talking about folks who would buy new, high end Cadillacs and spend yet another mint to convert such into pick-up trucks, so it is not far fetched to think one of these "eccentric" ranchers would have gotten such an idea many years ago, back when D. couperi were cheap, legal to collect in the wild and available at most any roadside stand throughout Florida.
Now, I know many who have collected D. m erebennus in the wild, self included, and while I never found any “high red” specimens, I know of a few who have and I take them at their word, especially since the good Dr. G is one of them and I personally believe his word is beyond reproach, especially since he has been field collecting in Texas longer then I have been around.
Have D. m erebennus and D. couperi integrated in some areas of Texas? I don’t know, I do not believe any of us do for certain, but I do not believe D. couperi could thrive for an extended period in the hot and dry Texas climate, as D. m erebennus appear to be able to tolerate dry conditions better then D. couperi and I would suspect D. couperi would perish within a relatively short period of time in the dry Texas climate.
There is actually a great deal of accuracy regarding the genetic profiling between species and sub-species. Dr. Scott Davis has perfected such to almost an art form. He did so within his Texas A&M lab when asked to develop a hybridization assay to determine the genetics of Cyclura nublia lewisi several years age for an IUCN repatriation project, which has shown a great deal of success. This was done as many of the C. n lewisi, in both captivity and the wild, had integrated with C. n caymanensis and such specimens were of no value to the repatriation project or for establishing assurance colonies within participating facilities around the world...

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[molurusbreedingcente]

Jeff,

In another post I also included the possibilty that Snakeking during the ealy 40s and 50s I believe operated in the valley of Texas and brought in large numbers of beaded lizards and Indigos from the west coast of mexico. The Johnsons in Laredo Texas also brought in rubidus because I got a couple from them in the late 60s. Around Freer, Bruni, Earnest Troope operated as and animal dealer, the Johnsons and a lady named Cavasas. I never saw any evidense of red-throats in their pits but certainly anyone keeping rubidus in that type of holding enclosure could have lost some along the way. Possibly they have would have faired better than the easterns in the dry texas weather. As far as the ranchers, I assure you in Texas it has been wide-open for years with wild-game farms, canned hunts, lots of animals being brought in from mexico and parts south and held there.

Do you think the geneticist you mentioned would be interested in profiling some of the southern red-throat indigos such as this guy posted on the fieldcollecting forum?

I personally have been fighting the 100% purity question with the Feds for 5 years now on determining what I am allowed to obtain and breed being 100% molurus subspecies. I was not aware that Indigo subspecies had a genetic profile established on each of them but if they are available it should not be that hard to answer the intergrade question for the red-throat Texas.

Thanks for the input.

Wlamore

 

[epidemic]

Bill,

Genetic profiles have not been documented between the Drymarchon ssp./spp. as of yet. I was simply pointing out the technology to do so is available. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening anytime soon, not due to a lack of desire, but rather a lack of funding. You see, it is quite expensive to conduct a DNA profile and the hybridization assay isn't all that cheap either. Such was made available for the Cyclura spp. indicated via grants from the AZA, IUCN and a few private endowments.
To be honest, most of the D. m rubidus I have seen move through Texas were from the Northern extent of their range and such have rarely harbored a great degree of red coloration, as most of the red specimens were moved through Arizona and California, I recall Chuck Elliot once had some phenomenally red specimens. Furthermore, there is much evidence indicating the translocation of adult Drymarchon spp. generally ends with the early demise of such specimens, so it would be unlikely an escaped adult D. m rubidus would survive long enough to reproduce in the wild and even escaped D. m erebennus, collected in an area away from the holding site, would most likely perish.
Personally, I believe the odds are against an escaped or released specimen surviving long enough to contribute to the local gene pool, though it does make for a romantic tale…

Jeff

 

[molurusbreedingcente]

Ah so goes the romantic tales of the the west! Long Live Judge Roy Bean and the indigos east of the Pecos.

 

[Wilomn]

I recall chuck having a very very red hatchling at one of the Ca. shows years ago. He told me it was a hybrid but I cannot recall what he told me the parents were.