the AMAZING (so called) 16X het

[diablohogs]

Here's a thought, Chad - why don't you write him a polite email and ask him your question.

my outgoing mail isnt working right now. i called SBC and they said to call Apple. i called apple and they said call back monday through friday.

besides everytime ive emailed ron with a question i always get a "non-answer".

i asked him if my super-tangerine albino was a hybino... he replied with "you could call him that". that what i call a "non-answer". so it seems pointless to even try.

 

[diablohogs]

id love to know who voted the 16X het is real.

 

[Milwaukee Reptiles]

LOL me too! Where is webslave when you need him (If he can even check that)?

 

[montezuma]

Chad, I think you may have a valid question but you are attacking Ron as if you know better than him about this gecko. He didn't get to where he is by being an idiot!
I am not genius when it comes to genetics, I have to consult the books all the time but isn't this as simple as a 16th generation leo? Lets say each year a female was bred and a male from different bloodlines introduced each year then this gecko would be carrying 16 different traits.. right?

 

[Gregg M]

Gene, I think you need to go hit those books some more......

 

[diablohogs]

I am not genius when it comes to genetics, I have to consult the books all the time but isn't this as simple as a 16th generation leo? Lets say each year a female was bred and a male from different bloodlines introduced each year then this gecko would be carrying 16 different traits.. right?

no. and once again he said "carries the genes for 16 different morphs. not traits.

i suggest anyone who is having a hard time understanding the genetics behind reptiles goto the WEBRADIO link on KS and listen to terry dunhams interview about morphs in hondurans. he is extremely knowledgable on the subject of genetics.

He didn't get to where he is by being an idiot!

i never claimed hes an idiot. i said he was selling a 16X het. which is impossible.

 

[montezuma]

i never claimed hes an idiot. i said he was selling a 16X het. which is impossible.

Hence, you are calling him either an idiot or a liar... which is it?

News flash! To carry a trait you must have a gene that has those traits...

 

[diablohogs]

gene,
there are many traits that are infact polygenic. line bred traits are such. i suggest you find your genetics book before you continue this discussion with me because you are way off.

there is no single gene for carrot tail. no gene for tangerine, carrot head, baldy ect...

to be het... first, you are refering to A SINGLE LOCUS TRAIT. second, there must be two different allelles in the locus of the chromosone. in recessive traits you must be homozygous (carry 2 copies of the gene on a single locus) for the phenotype (outward appearance) to be affected. in dominant traits you only need a single allelle to be a mutated copy of the allelle for the phenotype to be affected.

if ron tremper claims that he has a leopard gecko that is heterozygous for 16 different traits (recessive or dominant) then he isnt telling the truth. the fact that it is a super giant makes it homozygous for one trait. but thats a mere technicality and typically one that is advantagous to the buyer. its the other 15 traits im curious about. i can maybe understand it being het for albino. thats 2 traits. the rest seem unrealalistic to me.

anyone with a decent knowledge of genetics will concur that my definition of "het" (heterozygous) is accurate and that it is impossible to create a 16X het unless those morphs are divided between the parents and the parents are homozygous for each trait. yet there are NOT 16 single locus traits in leopard geckos and out of the ones that are available we know he hasnt introduced any ray hines hypo or mack snow to this animal.

 

[Gregg M]

I would call him a liar before I would call him an idiot.... Which would make him a good buisiness man....

Again Gene, start hitting those genetics books..... You seem to be lacking some important knowledge in this topic..... Thats not bad, unless you argue a point that you are unsure of yourself.....

 

[robin d.]

Chad, I think you may have a valid question but you are attacking Ron as if you know better than him about this gecko. He didn't get to where he is by being an idiot!

i wont quote on the idiot thing but he is a GREAT marketer!!!!

I am not genius when it comes to genetics, I have to consult the books all the time but isn't this as simple as a 16th generation leo? Lets say each year a female was bred and a male from different bloodlines introduced each year then this gecko would be carrying 16 different traits.. right?

no it would actually take quite a bit more (allot more infact) than that, it is not that easy at all but not impossible :eek3:

dan? wtf is a

CHCTTJGA

?

I would call him a liar before I would call him an idiot.... Which would make him a good buisiness man....

amen!!!! ::: waves hands in air and begins speaking in toungues :::

 

[Gregg M]

CHCTTJGA= carrot head carrot tail tremper jungle giant albino??? I think....

 

[robin d.]

oh and a post thought... that pic at the top looks like a high yellow turd brown tremper jungle

 

[Manhattan Herps]

CHCTTJGA = Carrot head carrot tail tangerine jungle giant albino

 

[Herpcam]

I don't get it sometimes.

I've been pretty good at ignoring this thread this weekend, but just had to see what its all about before I go to bed tonight. From what I've seen over the past several years, I can understand that Ron's done some things that some people disagree with, but I'm pretty confident that none of it's been illegal, and I'm also pretty confident that noone here is perfect. If you are, please introduce yourself to me - I'd love to talk with you.

I don't see anywhere in this that he says it's HET FOR 16 TRAITS/MORPHS. I'll post the ad again below, but to me, where it says 'Multi-Het' it means that it carries more than one recessive gene, such as Albino and Patternless, or blizzard, or some other recessive gene. Then, in a separate part of the description, where it says 'Carries the genes for 16 different leopard gecko morphs!', to me it means that it carries some genes for 16 different leopard gecko morphs.....that's it. NOWHERE DOES IT SAY IT'S HET FOR 16 ANYTHING!

#623 MULTI-HET JUNGLE PHASE SUPER GIANT - Male - 116 grams - $500.US
12 months old
Carries the genes for 16 different leopard gecko morphs!
Still growing!

While I'm not going to make a list, I believe it's possible to have one carrying that amount of genetic diversity in it's blood. Whether you'll see it all come out, I dunno, but I think it's possible. I also think that of anyone I can think of, RT's the most likely one to be able to do it. I've never bought a gecko from him, and have only ever come in contact with him a couple times, so don't think I'm trying to defend a 'friend'. I hate the way that every now and then, someone comes around and just has to try to challenge someone, start a fight, or try to start drama where it doesn't need to be started. The first thing anyone should do when they have a problem with someone else is bring it up with the person if you can -- and you can, Chad. Send him an email or give him a call and ask him what's up with it (I understand you may have to wait a few days/weeks). I'm sure he'd be willing to explain it. Or, try to find out who S.M. is, and ask them. I'd hope he or she asked what all the gecko had in it.

Something that I think many people will agree with, is that without his work, we may not be where we are today with these geckos we love so much.

 

[magick-bears]

Rob I think that you said it best. I would also add that as Xavier pointed out this is a 116gr Super Giant and $500 is well with in market value for that fact alone. So it is not like Ron is stating "Carries the genes for 16 different leopard gecko morphs!" simply to increase the value of the animal. In fact any Giant over 110gr that he sells is $500+. For that reason alone I don't think he would risk his reputation and have a possable law suit brought on by listing that if it was not in fact the case.

Just my $0.03
~Jeff C.

 

[Gekkonida]

I try to avoid these types of threads as well, but I call foo foo on this whole thing. Really now, deception to me doesn't have a place in marketing. If this is infact deception, well then I have a problem with it. If it isn't deception I am bumming that I didn't purchase that animal first. Wheather he said multi het or 16X het or 16 genes it makes little difference. He is implying the same thing really. Obviously, he isn't talking about it being heterozygous for 16 traits because well their isn't 16 recessive traits in leopard geckos to my knowledge. From a genetics standpoint to talk about polygenic traits as monogenic traits is just silly. They don't work the same way so why do it? I believe that what is happening here is we are talking about mostly polygenic traits when he says you can make 16 morphs from this animal. Is it possible? Yeah it is possible if their are enough mutations around. I personally would like to see the parents of the animal in question. I would assume they would be pretty impressive looking to have the ability to pass along 100% het genes to this little one. As for the personal stuff it isn't whether you like Tremper or not, I don't know him, but I do know his body of work with leopard geckos is impressive. To me it is more about whether an animal can be produced carrying all the goods for 16 morphs. Technically he could have bred a RAPTOR 1.(red eyed) 2.(Tremper Albino) 3.(stripe) 4.(reverse stripe) 5.(tangerine) 6.(carrot head) 7.(carrot tail) to Blazing blizzard that was also carrying a few extra genes with it. 8.(patternless) 9. (bell albino) 10. (blizzard) 11. (Giant) 12. (Jungle) 13. ( high yellow) 14. (xxxxxxx) 15.(xxxxxxxx) 16.(xxxxxxxx) [THIS IS MADE UP] feel free to add better combinations together. If you bred it to a patternless you could produce patternless. If you bred it to a normal you could produce out crosses of the line bred traits. I would like to see what you get one you bred a pair of these animals together? That for me would really answer the question.

 

[Gregg M]

#623 MULTI-HET JUNGLE PHASE SUPER GIANT - Male - 116 grams - $500.US
12 months old
Carries the genes for 16 different leopard gecko morphs!
Still growing!

This is infact implying that this animal is HET for 16 different traits, or it is very missleading to a person buying it.....

Since when are giants going for 500 bucks each???? Maybe 2 years ago.....

As for the "law suit", do you honestly think it can be proven in court that it is not "het" for 16 traits??? Do you know what it would cost just to have the DNA checked??? It would not be worth it for either party, trust me..... This is whats wrong with people these days..... Everyone wants to claim a suit on someone..... Thats why inssurance is so damn high these days.....LOL

Also, Jeff, if have not already noticed, his rep is not all that great to begin with..... He has done lots of shaddy, unethical things since his start in the late 70s..... Look it up....

Anyway, I would never pay 500 bucks on a "16 x het" leo, and anyone who does is a sucker...... I will bet that not even one third of these traits will prove out.....

 

[Monte]

I really don't think any of you should crow about your genetics acumen. I a have a BS in Biology - and know SQUAT about these genetics. I do have friends on the PhD side of science - one of them has his PhD in micro biology and genetics who works at the Mayo Clinic. Lemme put it this way - it's not as clear cut as you make it. It's even more complex than any of you so called "self-taught" herp geniuses know.

I know what Ron Tremper is saying. This animal came from animals that had or carried these traits. They come from a very diverse lineage. EVERYONE knows that - except for those who are looking for an excuse to tear him a new port hole.

He's not pretending to be a genetics guru. He's selling Leopard geckos. Those who hate him or are jealous pick at his words.

If you really want to start picking at words - then lets start off on all your webpages which say "We are not a big business - we are a small facililty so we can give them the very best care available." If I see that one more time I just might puke.

 

[Monte]

That last post sounds crabbier than I meant it to be.

I DO get tired of the constant picking at RT. Geez - get your own business - run it the way you want.

See, I'm starting to sound negative again.

I got to get back outside. It's only 70 in Minnesota for a couple hours a year . . .

 

[Gekkonida]

I a have a BS in Biology - and know SQUAT about these genetics. I do have friends on the PhD side of science - one of them has his PhD in micro biology and genetics who works at the Mayo Clinic. Lemme put it this way - it's not as clear cut as you make it. It's even more complex than any of you so called "self-taught" herp geniuses know.

This in my opinion is a low blow Monte. I understand the sentiment behind your comments but please forgive me if I agree to disagree here. I can't speak on the behalf of the other peoples knowledge about genetics, but don't assume that people don't have access to the same information as you, or that they don't know what they are talking about. So please please don't make blanket statements. And to me the academic side of genetics is only half the battle as experience really is the best teacher when it comes to genetics.

Yes genetics are tricky... And yes they are complicated.... And yes you can make them as complicated as you like by talking about advance subjects such as genetic transistion etc.. etc... BUT what we are talking about isn't that complicated. It really isn't. No matter how hard anyone tries to make it. It is just someone selling an animal that sounds a little too good to be true. I really couldn't care if it was RT or Sheriff Abdul Rahim selling the animal. What I am talking about are the genetics. Making 16 morphs from this animal. The [who said what part] is not the part of this thread that interests me. And, I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't assume that just because someone with RT stature says something that it is 100% accurate. I have seen enough stuff from the experts to know better than that. But again, I try to pull this thread back to the 16 morphs from one animal part. I for one would love to know how to make this animal. I am interested in any animal that could be as valuable to a collection as this animal. Monte you should come to Kansas apparently we skipped spring and went straight to summer. It has been in the 70's the past few weeks I believe.