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The Baby Turtle Law

hissnthatexotics

hissnthatexotics

Hiss'n'That Exotics
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I'm a little confuse... I've always thought you are not Allowed to sell any turtles under 4" .... but why does every single pet store I know sell them, I've even bought them, never signed a form or anything. Should I even acknowledge this law? I've always tried to avoid getting baby turtles at my shop....which leaves me VERY limited to what I can get. Opinions? Clarifications?
 
I read somewhere that its because this small of a turtle could be easily put INA kids mouth. Which to me raises an issue similar to other reptile laws. If you don't know anything about salmonella and other risks and husbandry don't get a turtle! Its probably one of those laws that a few people were stupid now everyone suffers.
 
As far as I know, it's still a law; though I believe it has been challenged a few times. (I'm pretty far removed from that stuff these days, so I'm not particularly likely to notice changes.)

Whether you agree with it, or not - it can bite you on the a$$ if you choose to disregard it. While it would be pretty unusual for the enforcing authority to make random inspections for turtle size; it wouldn't be so unusual for them to stop in as followup on a complaint/report. Initially, you would likely just be given notice to cease all sales or distribution of the turtles - meaning your options would be keep them until they are big enough to sell, release them, destroy them, or turn them over to a zoo. They may also pursue information regarding your source of those turtles. There are penalties that can be applied, if they feel that you have disregarded that notice.
If there are State or local laws involved, it is likely that the matter would be turned over to those authorities for enforcement.
 
The law went into effect in - I think it was - 1975. Yes, the issue was salmonella; and the size was chosen because small turtles are more likely to be handled, and kids did put babies turtles in their mouths (kids are weird like that). It wasn't a matter of "a few" cases of salmonella, though - there were an estimated 250,000 cases of salmonella associated with baby turtles in the US.
Think about it - baby turtles are cute, they don't take up much room, etc.... They were sold at department stores and given away as prizes at fairs/carnivals. People are significantly more likely to buy a baby turtle than a 4+ turtle. I don't doubt that there are less impulse buys of the larger turtles, and more of them probably survive as a result.

I remember looking this up several years ago, and the CDC estimate was that 100,000 cases of salmonella - per year - were avoided by this law.
 
I'm not suggesting disregard the laws, I'm one of the few shops in my area that actually have any regard for the law lol. I was just curious.... like for example I get lists from companies in FL who just sell these turtles. Some say only to exhibitors, scientists etc. on the list or w.e but so few people bother to enforce that law it seems. Frankly whenever I receive baby turtles I adopt them out. Its easier than dealing with law enforcement. No one likes writing out fines more than NH Fish & Game lol.
 
As far as adopting them out - that could/would still be considered distribution, and if NHF&G likes to issue fines, it's probably fair game if you were to be reported (or if it came up in an investigation)
 
hhmoore said:
The law went into effect in - I think it was - 1975. Yes, the issue was salmonella; and the size was chosen because small turtles are more likely to be handled, and kids did put babies turtles in their mouths (kids are weird like that). It wasn't a matter of "a few" cases of salmonella, though - there were an estimated 250,000 cases of salmonella associated with baby turtles in the US.
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They were like the hermit crab phase kids had a few years back. Everyone I knew had one of those sliders in this. At least for the couple weeks, month, before it died. Then picked up another for $2
 

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Yup....in many cases you could buy the "lagoon", and get the turtle for free.
I can still remember being a kid and seeing them as prizes at the county fair...in fact, the one year I went planning on winning one; I was pretty bummed that there werent any to be found. They were replaced by goldfish...and I went home with a couple of those, instead.
 
even via online order from BREEDERS, i've most often had to sign a PDF form and email/fax it back before the morph hatchlings could be released

i've never seen a pet shop offer small turtles - not on the west coast, not in florida, not in boston either. heck, not even in chinatowns of sf, la nor nyc!

however, i've lived in big, affluent cities across USA most the time, which i can imagine are more heavily policed by city officials than say, little towns?

what i have seem many times, is undecover INSPECTORS walk into pet shops and ask he petshop staff if they were 'interested in buying turtles hat they (UC inspector) found in their backyard'. how do i know they are undercover? because most wear a lanyard which though usually tucked in under their shirt/coat, bears an official city badge.

i've also seen UC's ask the store clerk if they have any baby turtles in the 'back' or if they can get one on special order for an educational school project.

the latter which perplexes me because if the petshop sells with a signed by buyer affidavit that the small turtle was ordered for and intended for educational/institutional use, and is aware of salmonella dangers, isn't that legit?

then again, USA is increasingly a POLICE STATE so i wouldnt be surprised that even if a petshop requires a signed affidavit, just having small turtles on their premises should be enough to fine them for breaking the salmonella law.
 
Kyle, the biggest loophole is for educational purposes. Which many teachers and "others" use to acquire their own little turtles from stores, dealers and shows.
 
neilg said:
i've never seen a pet shop offer small turtles - not on the west coast, not in florida, not in boston either. heck, not even in chinatowns of sf, la nor nyc!
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I have in every scenario you listed, Minus NYC. Haven't been there. Matter of fact, there are plenty in Chinatown in LA as of a couple of weeks ago.
 
The "educational" loophole can still cause issues if it is pursued/investigated; requiring documentation of "bona fide" educational usage. (the silly forms that some dealers/retailers use are just a lame CYA, and not worth the paper they're written on when push comes to shove)
 
Personally I can name a few shops who sell them. I won't say names incase I'm technically ratting them out. I think this law brings up controversy and at my shop I rather not sell turtles then deal with this crap lol. I've been buying turtles for around 5 years and have had some hatchlings (I raised them before selling them) and never once signed a document for anything. Maybe I'm dealing with the wrong companies xD
 
I once overheard a vendor at a reptile show tell a rude customer that if her kid was stupid enough to put a 3" turtle in his mouth he was probably stupid enough to lick the butt of a 10" one.
I think we are selectively breeding the common sense out of our children with some of the excessive child safety measures.
 
on the other hand, variety stores, and street vendors in front of them on main st new york's chinatown, and los angeles chinatown often peddle lotsa hatchling res for $5/each

pet shops selling baby turtles/torts? have yet to ever seen every one and would be surprised since its one of the top violations plain clothes inspectors scour the cities' pet shops for.
 
gila7150 said:
I once overheard a vendor at a reptile show tell a rude customer that if her kid was stupid enough to put a 3" turtle in his mouth he was probably stupid enough to lick the butt of a 10" one.
I think we are selectively breeding the common sense out of our children with some of the excessive child safety measures.
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I love that vendor's sense of humor. I definitely agree with him lol.
 
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