The Columbus Reptile show was Raided by Fish&wildlife officers

[The BoidSmith]

The warrents were issued because all three
Nelson Critterman and James from pet city All three of these guys have sold protected or indigenous animals to undercover officers within 6 months or so , hell James sold a captive born Blandings turtle to one officer over 2 YEARS ago!! We as responsible vendors have to watch our back and keep abbrest of all local state laws or we will give these asses just cause[in thier mind].

You can view this as the "half empty or half full glass approach". As long as they were after those breaking the law it should be viewed as if the glass was half full. The reason might have been some animals were illegally sold in the past to DNR officials, as suggested by John. Don't be surprised though if some of the tips came from other herpers. People that do this for a living, and do it by the book, sometimes get tired of this unfair competition. Isn't it possible that some rather than being outraged by this might have said to themselves: finally!? In my opinion watching each other backs means keeping this hobby clean and making sure everyone plays by the same set of rules and not taking advantage of fellow herpers.

Regards.

 

[John Apple]

yes Daniel
I also agree that some 'herpers' might view the competition as an unfair advantage, but what about those vindictive herpers that are out to cause conflict, or get a rise out of someone.
A police officer came to the show here a couple of weeks ago and said he had a complaint of someone selling prairie dogs [there wasn't a rodent at the show] never said where the complaint came from....there was also another show going on at that time,
coincidence????
As I said before we ALL NEED TO STICK TOGETHER!!!!
Dan said!? In my opinion watching each other backs means keeping this hobby clean and making sure everyone plays by the same set of rules and not taking advantage of fellow herpers.
WORDS TO LIVE BY
this is only gonna get worse unless we all do something
please everybody check your state and local laws involving our hobby

 

[Dragondad]

As John has said this is only the tip of the iceberg. Laws are going to be coming up and we all need to keep each other aware of them so that we can use forums, emails and simple old snail mail to voice our opposition to them. Is there any clearing medium set up so that herpers can keep checking both on pending legislation but also existing laws? I know Evan has mentioned this topic in the past and if there isnt one maybe its time to start one.

Having been in business and always feeling the pressure from unfair competition, when you play by the rules, can really build up and at times you want to "inform" on the competition. And yet we have threads on this forum (namely one on Kevin Peters) were the informer was simply trying to get back, and used DNR to do so. Being an informant is not the way to straighten out this hobby. The good guys sticking together, pointing out the ways to stop the bad guys. Using the BOI and getting the word out that you shouldnt buy just any old animal, from any old source. Or as has been mentioned "Sticking together" or maybe better put, "Divide and conquer" if we are fighting amongst ourselves then their ability to take our rights away is made significantly easier.

 

[DThomas]

Since passage of the "patriot act" warrants are much easier to obtain. and "probable cause" standards have been lowered for everything.

Warrants are no easier to obtain post Patriot Act. Remember, the Patriot Act refers to terrorism only so any law enforcement agency that wants to use it had better be able to show it involves terrorism or be in a world of trouble come court time.

Probable cause standards have not been lowered. Basically, probable cause is "more likely than not." Probable cause is in the 4th Amendment and there is copious amounts of case law from the US Supreme Court out lining it. It can not be changed with out a constitutional amendment and that takes 3/4 of the States to ratify.

You should be mad at the vendors that were arrested/searched, not at law enforcement. These vendors that were selling illegal animals are the ones hurting the trade, not law enforcement. We should police ourselves and refuse to do business with anyone that would jeapordize the herp industry. If we can not do that, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the legislation comes down.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Couldn't agree more!

You should be mad at the vendors that were arrested/searched, not at law enforcement. These vendors that were selling illegal animals are the ones hurting the trade, not law enforcement. We should police ourselves and refuse to do business with anyone that would jeapordize the herp industry. If we can not do that, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the legislation comes down.

Well said Dennis!

Take care.

 

[screamdreams]

I see your point Alvaro...

and that would be a good arguement if all was as it seems. I agree there's a wide array of sellers - some bad/some good/some great - but I'm under the impression that some of the people with their homes raided, where the good/great guys. I don't know any of the names listed above, but I know a few other's that are huge to the industry, and great people that go by the book. The problem is the "book" itself. I agree we need to weed out the bad guys with no pride, no care, and nothing but dollar signs in their eyes. The hobby would be far greater off without them, and the big guys/girls would probrably welcome a nice "clean" expo enviroment, but it seems some of the big guys/girls have been wrongly accused. They actually took animals that they said were "this" that were "that" for evidence. The law/laws are written by ignorant suits that know little about us otrthe animals. Bottom line - there are many doing what they can to fight these laws, but we need more. PIJAC.
All in all, I feel for all of us good guys, we don't deserve it...

 

[Dragondad]

Agree

Although the term probable cause and the protection of illegal search and seizure is stated in the 4th amendment. What constitutes probable cause is not stated. Therefore not subject to ratification by states. Or can be left to the interpretation of the judge that signs the warrant.

Yet I agree with what you are saying and you definitely did a better job of expressing it than I did. Bottom line the probable cause in this case was the selling of protected or indigenous animals to undercover officers. More than enough to get a warrant under any definition. And we shouldnt blame the Fish and Wildlife Officers.

If we dont police ourselves then the government will feel the need to police us.

 

[screamdreams]

I am mad at the vendor's...

that sold endangered/protected/native without proper permits, etc...but please remember this is only 1/2 true!! They WRONGLY IDENTIFIED species of Salamander and Colubrids RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY FACE!! Took them for evidence!!! It's BS, and should not be tolerated by ANY MEANS!! It's WRONG (uh-oh, caught myself typing like Neil) I'm all for the right laws that protect, but some are pure 100% BS, now all of you tell me this...have you ever smoked marijuana, have you ever consumed alcohol under the age of 21, have you gone over the speed limit??? Well these are all good laws - for our protection/safety, but they're broken every single day. Part of life, but please tell me why there is a "limit" on CB ALBINO RATSNAKES!! Answer anyone??? I know why, because an a$$hole freakin' wrote the "book" PERIOD, and I don't like a$$holes - for obvious reasons...they stink!!
PIJAC!!!!!!!!

 

[The BoidSmith]

The hobby would be far greater off without them, and the big guys/girls would probrably welcome a nice "clean" expo enviroment, but it seems some of the big guys/girls have been wrongly accused.

Troy,

Point well taken. I'm not implying that all those investigated had done something wrong. Although mistakes can be made I would suspect that the DNR was quite careful about who they were investigating, and when they broke into a place they better have quite a strong case to back it up.

Part of life, but please tell me why there is a "limit" on CB ALBINO RATSNAKES!! Answer anyone???

I was not aware of this disposition and it seems ridiculous. Where can one read more about it?

Regards.

 

[John Apple]

There is a limit because they are albino BLACK RAT SNAKES and black rat snakes are indigenous to the areas raided and threatened or protected in other states [Michigan]. there are permits for these and a limit is set.
Also keep in mind you get the permits for the adults you have ,they breed and then you are over the limit, wildlife knows this and raids your house each spring.
The written word does not say anything about color morphs of this species, and I am sure the wildlife officers know this and the mentality of these guys is 'its still a black rat snake' albino, leucistic or otherwise.
any one else see this grey line here???

 

[screamdreams]

If we dont police ourselves then the government will feel the need to police us.

Those are words of wisdom, very well said. Well, let's hope the "raid" satisfies itself, and we can go on enjoying Columbus, and many other expo's soon!! We're all in agreement here, and with new point's of view, facts, thought's, and personal opinions should help us all figure out the best way we can "police ourselves" as a community. You guys are good!!

 

[Ken Foose]

I have found out in the past that if you don't like a law, then change it. That's what I have done several times in my home state of Nevada. It was once illegal to possess any native herp. We lobbied the Division of Wildlife, and had all albinos exempt. Later, we changed the law to make it legal to collect small numbers of herps for personal use. Hell, in 1984, when I first arrived here, you needed a permit to own any reptile, plus an import permit to get it into the state. All those regulations are gone, because we decided to change them. The next regulation that is going by the wayside is the selling of native herps. We have proposed the breeding of collected herps (ie: cal kings, gopher snakes, collard liz etc) and the selling of the offspring only, keeping the wild caught animals out of the trade. The state will charge a permit for this, and hobbiest will be able to breed their collected herps and sell the offspring. The state backs this plan, as they have most other proposals we have offered them. As far as the Ohio laws go, I'm sure they can be changed too, if enough people will stand up and do something about it. I have found that even a few herpers are vocal enough to ellicit change, as the general public really does not care enough to voice an opinion or get involved. I would push to make all native albino herps exempt as a first test step, should be easy enough to do. As for the guys that got busted because they were stupid enough to sell illegal herps to cops, tough! As far as the guys that got caught up in it and were not doing anything illegal, all the local herpers in Ohio need to come to their aid now, show the state they are incorrect. Form a group, use the herp societies, contact PIJAC. PIJAC is our best hope when it comes to local and national legislation. We all should be members. We should all donate a bit of money to the effort. In fact, for those who want change, I would contact Marshall Myers now, ask his advice, he has been around the block on such issues more then once, and could most likely help out. You can get more information and join at www.pijac.org. Good luck to us all.

 

[Ken Foose]

PIJAC

well, for some reason (I'm sure it's me) that link did not work. So just do a search for it (google, etc), I'm sure you guys know how.

 

[screamdreams]

Ken,

Thank you for your guidance, and words of hope to change. Before reading your post I really thought there was not much we could do, but you "making a change" first hand is very, very motivating. Thank you!!
-PIJAC -

 

[Dragondad]

Can agree more, PIJAC is good. But as the CA care sheet proved they can only provide information. If the members dont take "the grassroots approach" and contact legislatures, voice opinions then being a member is nothing. I believe it was Rich Z once stated that each contact counts as a certain number of constituents for and elected official.

We as individuals need to start becoming proactive. Some with more eloquent abilities draft letters for those who cant. Get list of proposed laws out to everyone. All interested hobbyists needs to contact via email, snail mail, or telephone the both local and state
lawmakers. Hate to say it what makes PETA affective is they make the most noise, so we just have to make more.

 

[screamdreams]

You're right!!!!

Let's make some noise!!

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

Some of the crap they sited for.

Here is a list of some of the crap they got sited for.

Do all you traveling vendors do this on all your animals??

Do all shows provide an on site Vet? ( I highly doubt it )

An do you all ID chip you animals? (again, I highly doubt it )

-no documentation of captive born herps native to the U.S.
-no ID chips in herps over 6"
-no vet checks on out of state herps
-no vet on site
-no permits for native herps

Seems the Fish and Wildlife Dept just wanted to go "fishing" as it were. Pun intended.

 

[Uffern]

I'm sure they achieved their goal, which was most likely to charge some fines and create a reason to demand as much or more funding from the federal Government next year.

 

[John Apple]

Ya gotta wonder what happens to the confiscated animals that fish & wildlife took, how many were mislabled, and were the natives re-released or froze as evidence.
As far as being 'tough' on those that got busted, well get your permits, check your local and state laws, and last but not least WATCH WHO YOU SELL TOO, there are crooked officials that will in turn bend the law to bust you




Gee , what if they tried to control Elaphe gutatta gutatta.

 

[ScottsReptiles]

My source was a vendor at the show(who asked not to be named).. said they boxed and taped up with little or no air holes.. and just left like that. Doubt any survived..