The Columbus Reptile show was Raided by Fish&wildlife officers

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

Gee , what if they tried to control Elaphe gutatta gutatta.

Ahh, the most dealdiest of species. Yes, they should be restricted.

Can't you just picture a Fish and Game tard setting at home right now digging threw a feild collection guide trying to figure out what the he!! an Elaphe gutatta gutatta is?

With this simple thought racing in his feable mind.
"And elephants guts? What did he say again?"


:laugh:

 

[Wilomn]

Scott, I don't want to rain on your parade but, if you can't put a name to your sources, please don't use them here. Facts need to be verifiable and without a name it's just hearsay. It's happened several times in recent posts, I don't remember who was doing it so I'm not singling you out, but it really needs to stop.

On a completely different track, way back when when I had my shop we had two under cover fish and game officers come in and try to get one of my employees to sell them california rosy boas. At the time they were not legal to sell in ca, only the baja ones were. They came in at least a dozen times over the course of a couple of weeks. When he refused to have anything to do with it they wanted zonata, ca. mountain kings. No go there as well. We had a permit for cal. kings and gophers and we did sell those but they didn't want them.

We did at the time have a ruthveni in stock. After trying many times, always in street clothes, to get him to sell to them anything that was illegal, they finally came in in uniform and conficated my ruthveni. I was in the shop at the time and they told me it was a zonata. I assured them it was not and even showed them in Markell's kingsnake book what the differences were. They went ahead and took her and said that their scientists would have to verify what it was, that they were not "QUALIFIED" to say what was what. That's right, the officers who had tried to ENTRAP my employee were not qualified to know what snakes where what.

Two days later the snake was returned with no explanation and we never saw them again.

You never know who you are really selling to. This is something that those of us who are honest will not have to worry about. Those who are doing illegal selling or collecting, I hope you all do time. And the sooner you are busted the better for all of us.

I really don't think I would have a problem dropping a dime on someone who was committing such illegal acts. This is not just a hobby but a way of life for many of us and we need to protect ourselves from the scumbags out there. This means some internal policing as well. No more looking the other way when someone is obviously selling illegally obtained animals or those that are not legal to be sold. If we as a group start weeding out the bad guys then we as a group will engender respect of those who would regulate our industry. It's sad but necessary that we, some of us anyway, have this respect to further our own goals to keep and breed and sell.

I think it has finally come to the point where we do something about it or have something done about it for us. I don't like to think what the second option there entails.

Wes Pollock

 

[Dwight Good]

Ya gotta wonder what happens to the confiscated animals that fish & wildlife took, how many were mislabled, and were the natives re-released or froze as evidence.

According to this article the herps will be released into the wild?

 

[ScottsReptiles]

--
Scott, I don't want to rain on your parade but, if you can't put a name to your sources, please don't use them here. Facts need to be verifiable and without a name it's just hearsay. It's happened several times in recent posts, I don't remember who was doing it so I'm not singling you out, but it really needs to stop.
---


Yea.. but.. the information was given to on the fact that I would not name the person, since they did not get cited at the show and did not want any extra attention brought to them. Only reason it was posted because I trust my source. I have been a member here long enough to know what should and should not be posted.

 

[Wilomn]

I have no doubt that you trust your source, that really isn't the issue here. I don't know your source, don't know if they are given to exaggeration or minimalization of facts, or what. There is no way for me to verify your facts. Therefore, they don't belong here. Put them in general business or something, but if it's in the BOI it needs a name attached, as stated in the rules you know so well.

Wes Pollock

 

[Wilomn]

Once I posted my last post I realized it may come off a little harsher than I meant it to.

Let's look at it from this point of view. Suppose someone makes up a friend who saw something like your friend did. Suppose someone wants to verify this information. Not possible because there is no real person in this instance. I do believe your friend saw what they said they did, but this is not always the case. It's sort of like looking the other way at a captive bred only show when you damn well there are recently imported animals being sold there. How long do you go without saying something about it.

As I said I have seen it several times in the recent past here and it was time to say something about it, it just happened to be you. Nothing personal or anything.

Wes Pollock

 

[craig kade]

That article is downright funny, I would realy like to see the area that people are poaching these albino black rats from. This raid realy angers me, however so do some of the things I see at some of the shows. I live in Michigan and I can tell you I have seen people with well over 100 red eared sliders, fresh babies for sale well under the 4" mark, selling them to anyone who wanted one. I am pretty sure those are supposed to be educational use only. I have also seen someone with dozens of rabbits for sale even after the latest ban. I do not agree with alot of these laws, but people who are blatantly disobeying them are not helping anyone out. And please don't think I am defending the DNR, anyone who knows me will tell you that is not even possible. I agree with earlier posts suggesting that people work on changing laws, but I also think we need to try to obey them until they are changed no matter how stupid they are. Just my $.02
Craig Kade

 

[WebSlave]

Please note that I have a Legislative Alerts forum in the Discussions area of this site. I can have that as a single completely open forum for these kinds of issues, of I can subdivide it down by region, state, or anything else you all would find as a workable solution to keeping tabs on legislation that could affect our businesses.

You all just tell me what you need. I am willing to utilize this site to whatever extent necessary to help out. But don't wait for the other guy to do it for you. He's probably waiting on you.

I believe Richard Mott is working on a plan now, so some more of you need to get this fired up emotion directed into motivation to set up a plan of action.

Between registered members and guests, there are around 1,000 people per day whom visit this site. That's not HITS, that's unique individuals checking in here. That's a lot of people to be able to get the word out to when needed. Why not use it?

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

Wes Pollock ,

I know who Scotts source is and can vouche for the authenticity of his posts and substance in them.

Your off base on this one.

This is a show that I have been going to for over a decade. I know most of the vendors well enough to invite some to my home.

You should really be focused on the issue at hand, the raping of our rights.

 

[Wilomn]

No No No that's not my point. It's not about Scott and his source. It's about using verifiable info on this board. It has nothing at all absolutley zip to do with Scott. There have been others on ohter threads on this forum that have done the same thing recently.

I know someone who doesn't want his name mentioned .......

It is becoming more and more frequently done here and I don't want it to get to be commomplace. We need to have facts here, not someone's opinion of what someone else told them.

I don't doubt that both of you have the right info in this particular instance but what if someone like neil or terry lilley came on and said that someone who didn't want to be named said that one of you had sent him sick or dead animals? For this to work properly we ALL have to post only verifiable information. If an exception is made for you then why not them? That's the point I'm making. Or am trying to anyway.

Wes Pollock

 

[herpetological]

Ohio Show

Just some observations and past run in's: Keep in mind that you can also get busted or accused even when you do not try to obatin illegal animals. In the 70's and 80's Fish & Wild had "sting operations" in effect that targeted people who did not try to obatin illegal animals. People were phoned and offered "illegal" animals. If they refused they got a package anyway. Some people refused the packages and sent them back only to get another. Those that did open the boxes and sent the animals back were charged!!!....I recently was sent a box of "animals".
I did not know they were coming thru the channels that they did. They person knew about the documentation and the channels that they were to go thru. A few weeks after discussing the matter I recieved a box along with several other shipments that day. I signed for them without looking.(I was on the phone) When I opened it I found no paperwork or invoice. I figured that there was some mix-up.(Lost paperwork or forgotten) I didn't have 10 minutes before someone(You can guess who) showed up. Whole tactical team and all!!!! I luckily had a "trail" to show that I wasn't trying to get them in this manner. It was hell to say the least. Be CAREFUL! Well getting a little off subject but it does connect. I have found over the years that law enforcement can be grossly negligent and uninformed as to laws and identification. How do we address that? Maybe we can work with them on this? Just a thought....Before anyone goes to any show call the local agencies and get an updated (Printed) copy of the CURRENT laws. Carry this with you. Also, do not neglect to carry receipts of where your animals were obtained. (It won't stop them but, it might give you the much needed "ammo.") I could go on for hours in regards to the organizational need of the herp community in general. Herp societies are helpful and in some cases can give the needed push to change or block laws. However, as mentioned before we all have to get on the wagon! I'm in !We just need a direction.!!! As to those who are legitimately busted...oh well. However, too many people are nailed by the "grey" areas in laws. They are there for a reason.... I'll discuss that another time.! Last but not least....We need to include law enforcement in this process.. Yeah I know many people don't want to hear this but it's true.
Just like there are "bad" herpers... Uninformed or radical elements exist in law enforcement. Keep in mind we need to affect the laws before enforcement is handed them! Just a side note.... Turtles under 4" can be sold under 1240.62 If these people would adhere to the wording it would not be a problem. Enough. Ray Goushaw www.herpbreedingresearch.com

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

I agree with you about needing posts to be verifiable.

That's why I have just verified it for you as a third party.

As for your example about the sick animal, I do see your point and if no one stood up to verify the source than Neil's post would be a joke and dismissed as such by the members on this board in a very expedient fashion. Of that fact, I have no doubt.

In this case the stakes are a bit higher than just a reputation. It's getting the fat headed retards of the Fish and Game after an innocent for revenge. Stealing his animals as "evidence" or worse yet trumping up some Bu!!chit charges to take his hard earned money in fines. Don't put it past them to go after any trouble makers or people simply voicing out against them. We are all at risk when these buffoons decide to come after us.

Since it's this vendors job, I respect Scott for standing behind his word and not divulging the name. In this case, it's just not needed. Lets protect the innocent.

 

[Wilomn]

This seems to be taking on a personal bent that I did not intend.

I am sure you and Scott have stated the truth here. You both have solid reps as far as I know.

Now, if neil came on and verified that lilley had indeed been telling the truth about what jason who sold Cheryl female ball pythons( that all turned out male)said, ie that they were all female, do you see how this can get to convoluted to follow? Yes in this particular instance all is well. However, in the future there is no guarentee of the same occurring.

So do we follow the rules, or make exceptions as individual interactions occur?

Now, once again, this is in no way pointed at either of you two. I just don't want to see this made a habit. If an exception is made here then it's easier to make later on in a situation that may or may not be as important as this one is. And easier to let it go on the next one and so on and so on.......

I don't really care who said what to who about the raid or the show. It really has nothing to do with what I am trying to get across here. I believe that both Tim and Scott have told the truth. I firmly believe that there are MANY others out there who would not tell the truth if it profited them to lie. In order to keep them as honest as possible we must utilize all means possible and one of the most important is that only verifiable, and by that I mean by the person who made the statement in question not one of his friends or the friend of a friend who he asked not to use his name, and only such information be used here.

I think that may have been a little clearer than my past posts. I hope so anyway.

Wes Pollock

 

[ScottsReptiles]

So do we follow the rules, or make exceptions as individual interactions occur?

Well... we are having a completely off topic discussion in this forum.... ah well... lets just focus on what happen and learn ways to stop it from happening again.. for us and our herps.

 

[Wilomn]

I am all for that.

Wes Pollock

 

[meretseger]

The laws themselves are available on the Ohio DNR's website, but to clear up some confusions-

The law covers native species and hybrids thereof. This, I think, clearly encompasses albinos.

All native animals have to be microchipped over a certain size, so if someone had permitted animals that weren't pittagged, that would have been a violation
.
There have been prarie dogs at the show in the past. I've heard that prarie have been illegal in Ohio, but I could never verify it. It was never repeat vendors who were selling them, and I don't think this entered into the investigation,although I'm sure they would have taken them if they were there.

The law does encompass red eared sliders. One officer there told me that they have been watching pet stores. Something isn't right there, as I've seen every local pet store have RES at some point. I think someone's been enforcing the 4 inch law lately, though, as those seem to have disappeared.

It's also very very sad when a wildlife officer can't identify the 5 or 10 native snakes he or she would be likely to run into at a show. How can we expect them to tell a legal western fox from an illegal eastern fox?

Erin Benner

 

[screamdreams]

Hidden message for all...

Below you will find a breif list all all Reptiles that will be banned from ownership if we don't pull together now:
at Tail Gecko's (Albino's & Stripe's)
romastyx (Mali, Egyptian, etc...)
ook's Tree Boa's (ETB's & GTP's)
ingsnakes (No matter locale)

exas Rats (Luecistic's included)
eloderma
astern Hognose (Western, and what the heck, Southern too)

reen Iguan's
paque Reptiles (in "blue" of any sort- no cloudy eye covering)
iper Boa's
ars, anything with ears...Red or otherwise
ed Ratsnakes
ew guinea Pythons
acklott's
cdysis, any animal that may or may not shed it's skin
ose Be Panther Chameleons
iger Retics

Out of respect for the webslave and all his visitor's I have removed the first letter of every animal and/or phrase, it's up to you to spell it out. Toodles, and oh yeah - I support our troops 110%

 

[John Apple]

Call me a mental midget here ......,but why were all the first letters removed, out of respect??? must be missing something there.
come to find out more homes were raided today at least two that I know of.
which brings something to mind, one of the homes raided [James] they were looking for a leucistic blandings and a leucistic wood turtle. There was some special interest there for that turtle.
Now am I correct in assuming that they would release that back into the wild per the ohio paper, this was also said in some Mi. papers[that re-releasing was to happen], No I think they would have used it to fund more of the same cr@p that went on the last two days. cmon a leucistic blandings being re-released?!?!?

As far as eastern and western foxes , they are pretty easy to tell apart and it would be easy to fight in court with some pics and documentation, that is if one of these 'knowledgable' fish and game officers were to bust someone with what they thought was an eastern fox, but in reality was a western.I have cought both species, but keep none here at home

 

[screamdreams]

With all of my typo's in the first paragraph I can see where you got confused. I just did something stupid to express some of my feelings towards what's happening here. Take all of the animals starting with at Tail Geckos, add the F and continue on down the line - there's a hidden message here. Grown-ups only please, LOL!!

 

[WebSlave]

Well, this really doesn't belong in the BOI, but I'm not 100 percent where exactly to put it. I think I need to change the forum from Legislative Alerts to Legislative Issues & Alerts and move it there.