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The Columbus Reptile show was Raided by Fish&wildlife officers

Hidden Message!!!

At Ohio University we had our own hidden message for our foe's at Miami.

Chanted at every game we sparred with them was the cheer, Muck Fiami!

I like the effort Scremdreams.;)
 
WE have no one to blame but

ourselves. Eventually, what will happen is that the promoters who run these shows are going to get smart and only allow legal Herp businesses into these shows. Thats one of the problems that I see in this herp world, everybody has a business, whether its a weekend or weekday herper, their in on Monday , cause havoc and are out by Friday. Its no wonder that we are treated the way we are. Reptile people are looked at , as the scum of the earth, low lifes who are in the peddling trade for the fast buck. The people who run these shows allow anyone who has a business name, the money to pay for the booth, and possibly a state permit, to get in the show. These people dont give a dam about the legal good people in the herp trade, they just want the fast weekend buck, and silently fold their tents after the show and move on.

I hope the day will come when only legal corporations can exhibit, sell, at these shows. They would have alot to loose if they started playing games with animals that were protected .Their permits would be revoked as permits are a privledge and can be taken away. I realize you may think this is extreme, but its coming, and it is the only way to police oneselve. It would add some legitimacy, to the trade, and Fish and Wildlife would know who is in the business of selling herps and who are looking for an easy kill without any reservations for the legit dealer. JERRY TRESSER
 
Do I have to spell it out for you

This was NOT a "bad guy" sting!!! Yes, some of the "fly-by-nighters" got hit but so did some other people. Do you realize what they're trying to do here??? It's not to save native species...it's to shut down the hobby. A certificate of health for every single animal - every single animal microchipped - out of state. Please take a minute - scroll down the herp law forums at our 2 favorite sites, quickly look at the subject matter. It's horrible!! So you mean to tell me, you're all for this??? So the guy that has a small collection that takes great pride in captive breeding a few choice low-high end animals "on the weekends" should have to drown with the bad guys??? Yes, I hate JUNK dealers, I see them often - on the net - everywhere!! You know what?? They exists in every market place. Every one. Do you actually think that Mark S. Bell and BHB Ent will spend the money to have every one of their animals "vet certified" just so they can sell to Ohio, PA, or who knows where next?? This is not a local issue, it's nationwide, they are only starting this thing, and their only mission is to bury the industry. What happens if Kev gets hit?? What about RDR?? Pro-Exotics??? I'm serious when I'm telling everyone this is for real this time. The want it over PERIOD. I don't care how big your corporation is, if we don't make our voices heard we're through. FLA just passed some BS, PA did the same. Bottom line, is we are letting the uneducated, scared little suits, right are laws and regs. We sit back with are Corns & Kings and are Gecko's thinking everything is alright. Guess what?? Its not. I can almost promise you within 10 years there will be no shipping of live harmless reptiles, no state to state sales, the hobby will downward spiral unless we all make some noise!!

PIJAC!!!!!!!!

I'll be dropping some big names soon, then maybe our eyes will open.

Knobtail, please don't take this as an attack on you or the points made. I see what you are saying, and I agree with alot of what you said, but it's much bigger than that. It's not going to help the industry at all. Yes, we should clean up other people's act in the hobby (BOI is great for that) but we can't let this one go.
 
OK, correct me if I'm wrong here but wouldn't these morons be doing more harm than good by releasing the confiscated animals bask into the wild? CB and even LTC snakes could pose a serious health risk to wild snakes. What about bacteria or anything else that could threaten wild snakes that have never been exposed to something new? Also, wouldn't CB snakes not have the same immune systems to fight disease as the wild snakes? What about hunting? How would a CB snake released into the wild know what is edible and what is potentially lethal to eat? I always thought it was a big time NO to EVER release a CB snake into the wild unless it was immediately after hatching? How will an albino be able to survive? It will not be able to blend into the surroundings in order to hunt or to avoid predators?
To me it sounds like these asses have no clue about what they are doing.
 
TROY, thank you for the quick response,

I am all to well aware of the situation considering that I am probably the oldest one on this site to be in the herp business, Ive seen alot over the 40 years. As you pointed out, we are all looked at by the authorities the same. Whether corporate or not. I dont care if someone decides to make a hobby out of what their enjoyment is, but these shows provide an avenue for everyone to become a vendor , including deadbeats and those that are looking for some weekend wealth regardless of the consequences. The authorities know just where to go excluding smuggling, and that is a Herp show. The authorities have no choice but to lump everyone into one pot, as they do not have the expertise, nor the manpower to check every vendor out, but my gripe , and I understand yours, is that I have every right to know who my next door vendor is. As you pointed out, my investment may be substantial, and I may be very legit, but I would be caught up in the whirlwind of being lumped together with people who not only have no business being vendors, but may be dealing with illegal herps.

Alot of this could have been avoided. In this specific instance. I dont know what the future holds. Maybe you are correct, and the writing is on the wall, but maybe if we made the game and the players use the rules instead of the anarchy that exists today, we would all be the better for it. Just look at all the rip offs on the net , just to get an idea of whats going on. Just look at the complaints of the deadbeats on the BOI. Just look at the shows, and think about how many of the vendors are legal businesses. They have no obligation other than to themselves. Thats the problem, and thats what has to be cleaned up. For the good of everyone and the industry. JERRY TRESSER
 
they say in the news report that the confiscated reptiles will be released into the wild...
well, here in connecticut, you cannot release certain wild-caught reptiles unless you know the EXACT place of capture. for instance, last year at the nature park where i work, we had an Eastern Box Turtle dropped off at the nature center. no idea why, or who dropped it off. the nature center has permits to temporarily care for injured animals, but not permanently keep them. we have a near 500 acre premesis, and we thought that it would have a good, safe home. but when we looked up the rules, we found that we weren't allowed to release it anywhere except exactly where it was picked up.
we put up notices at the park and in the paper, asking whoever dropped the turtle off to just call us and tell us where it was found, but to no avail. we finally had to send it to a rehab center, where the poor guy will live out the rest of his life in captivity.

i know, long story, but i do have a point. there is a reason that law exists here, and i agree with it. what happens if certain reptiles they're releasing into the wild have diseases or infections? (NO OFFENSE, DEALERS!!!) i know the chances are relatively small, but still..
also, they talk about putting them back in their rightful habitat, and how they have niches to fill... WHAT ABOUT THE CB HERPS??? they have never been wild, and in many cases neither have their parents. what place do they fill in the ecosystem, do tell?

look, it's perfectly fine that they're catching people who have endangered or protected species. but putting captive snakes into the wild (particularly albinos and other uncommon morphs) is practically signing their death warrants. OR, putting even normal black rat snakes (even wild caughts) back into the wild into an already established colony is still going to mess things up.


but all that is, as always, only my opinion on things. i'll shut up now. :)
 
I can assure you

that anything that is confiscated will not be let go into the wilds of Ct. or any other state. The authorities have ways of protecting their own enviornment, and either the herps will end up in some zoo or institution is a more likely scenerio than being let loose in the wilds of Ohio. JERRY TRESSER
 
Knobtail

Very valid points. I am very sorry if I came off harshly, after re-reading that post I felt it was too strongly worded in spots. I'm just ticked off!! I think that what you are saying is 100% correct and those exact things have bothered me for awhile, but I really don't know how to fight them. In short - I'm just very afraid of what may come, hopefully all will settle down, but I just got this gut feeling "we" Ohioians were just for starters. I've "heard" this will be ongoing, quickly spreading to other cities/states. I almost feel like we as hobbiest/businessmen and women/collectors/ and breeders alike should lobby Washington (heck, the Browns fans did it) there was also a reply earlier from a gentlemen that helped change laws in Nevada. Very well written, if anyone's just scanning over this thread please take a moment to look for his post(s) I almost feel as a unified community we could lobby for Federal sanctions that would detour things from getting too out of hand. Permits, etc are not my complaint here, it's the whole "killing the hobby" to save the animals that's freaking me out. My animals are treated like Kings & Queens in my collection. I've worked hard to give them the castle they deserve. Educate - Propagate - and please donate to PIJAC!!!!
 
another interesting point

The state and government is overlooking the fact that we provide a valueble service. Many of us keep, care for, and propigate animals that are disappearing in the wild due to loss of habitat,amongst many other reasons. I would think they would incourage people to keep these "living libraries" to assure that they dont just fade out like so many herps that we only incounter in black and white pictures from the 60's.
As for the animals that were confiscated from the show,

I can tell you first hand, my state has made it clear, any confiscated illigal animals are property of the state and can be destroyed if they choose. I would bet the albino animals(at the least) were destroyed becouse they obviously wouldnt servive.

someone in a earlier post on this thread mentioned the "blanket laws" we seem to fall under. My state has a couple laws that cover the whole industry. everything is worded so it is left to the descression of each individual law inforcement officer.
The bottom line is WE ARE A MINORITY! In most peoples eyes, reptiles are creepy,dangerous animals that have no place in our society. When your going up against this mindset, the battle is long and hard. I know personally, it's no easy task convincing the Commisioner of Fish and Wildlife he is wrong.Either way, I simpathize for the people who lost their animals out of this raid. I disagree with owning or selling illigal herps but everyone worries about the well being of the poor animals confiscated.
Just my opinions based on my own pending court case that consumes my wallet and many hours.
 
Ohio law states that animals can be released for up to 30 days if they're quarantined.
The Columbus show is run by Don Hamper, who I happen to have a lot of respect for, and the rule was that no native animals were allowed. I think a lot of us, especially out of state vendors, assumed that BRS morphs were ok. Everyone had them. I remember one vendor in particular that had white sideds, I know they got busted but I don't know if that was it.
I'm sure Mr. Hamper wanted to run a legal show, but he can't watch everyone. I certainly hope he didn't get in trouble and the show can go on like normal.
I'd like to thank all the other people who waited outside the show for 4 hours and got sunburned. It was really uplifting to see how much all those people care about the show (or wanted to get their crickets really badly, whatever).

Erin Benner
 
wait, animals can be released for up to thirty days after being quarantined..
i read that sentence as they release the animals, and then under thrity days later, they catch them again?
or are they released after thirty days of quarantine?

i need coffee...
 
Ohio Show

I'd like to address a few issues that have been touched on here.
We are actively involved in re-location and rehabilitation of Reptiles and Amphibians in Florida. Some species I.E. Gopher Tortoises can be re-located or released into new habitat. However, many populations are affected by a specific virus. Specimens out of one population may have the virus and be resitant to it.(Carriers without active virus) Yet, another population may never have been exposed to this. One re-located tortoise can wipe out an entire population! Testing is done but is expensive. I guess the point i'm trying to make is that it's not always a good idea to release back into the wild. The next arguement is locality specific specimens and color variants. Obviously these would not survive. Next... all reptiles and amphbians C.B. or otherwise are quite capable of adapting to wild conditions and surviving. They do not learn survival skills from parents.(it's hardwired so to speak.) However, as I have already expressed it's not a good idea. Loads of factors and conditions here....Also, I think Ohio officials could have handled the "native" regulations better. I would have suggested any vendors from out of state selling "morphs" of native species should have recieved a warning. The law did seem to be unclear in that regard??? Or just careless about reading the law??? In regards to obvious "native" species I would have to side on law enforcement...especially if they were vendors who resided in that state. They should know better!! If the out of state vendors were to show up again with native species or morphs then of course enforce it. I guess it was just easier to write tickets and seize from all??? Not all "weekenders" are bad people either. All I can say is research it before you go or sell!!!! again...Get copies of the law in writing before you sell. Thanks Ray HBR www.herpbreedingresearch
 
Please be patient with me while I clear up a bunch of points made here as I have also been dragged into this mess personally now and know the details of most of what has happened.

Ken, PIJAC has made it clear in the past that they can't afford to spend the money to fight the vast majority of reptile regulations as it is such a small portion of what their nationwide constituency of pet shops sell. Nationwide, reptiles and related products are less than 10% of annual pet store revenues (I believe it was 6-8% last year but can't remember exactly) . The vast majority of pet shops in this country and pet trade related shops (groomers, kennels, vets, dry good stores, etc.) do not even deal with anything reptile. So do not wait for PIJAC as they will not be helping you.

Dennis, Alvaro and Jerry had some negative things to say about vendors breaking the law. As a personal example, I have not sold at the Columbus show as a vendor for over 3 years. I have not physically been to the show for over 2 years and yet I still had an agent at my house Sunday morning with tickets for me, concerning a $35 sale that was somebody else's animal, somebody else's money at somebody else's table. I just happened to be there. Now I am charged with 2 misdemeanors from over 2 years ago! You please tell me what I did.

Another example, a friend of mine here in Michigan was a vendor at the Colombus show. They tried to set him up for two years, every month, offering to sell him endangered animals. He did not buy them and did not break the law. So instead, they took the undercover operative from Ohio to the Indy show and sold him some animals that were not endangered or protected. They still raided his house. They seized native animals and the FULL AND COMPLETE LEGAL DOCUMENTATION FOR THEM. Why then were they seized when he had all the required paperwork and proof of sale, etc.? They also took the hard drive out of his computer and piles of his paperwork not pertaining to this one transaction that they stated as cause for their warrant. Also, they were nice enough on their way out of his driveway, to drive into the side of his house, knocking out the power line to his upstairs level. Great stuff, eh?

Understand, 99% of this situation is not about fly by night vendors poaching. Quite the opposite. Nearly everyone cites and everything seized is captive bred. All of the people that I know, have full documentation for everything that they have and produce. Yet they were still raided. It needs to be obvious to all that this is a muscle flexing activity. There had to be a large amount of pressure on these agencies to come through with something as they started this right before 9/11/01. So to have manpower and money on this in at least 6 states that I know of, while the federal government was supposed to be focused on terrorism is a big thing.

They raided another vendor in Michigan and seized animals that are not native or endangered. They used the excuse that they thought the person who produced and sold them to him over 2 years ago may have collected his adults illegally. Sorry, that is not supported by legislation. That is yet another illegal seizure. Unless they can prove that they vendor here in Michigan purchased the babies, knowing full well, as being told by the breeder that his adults were obtained in violation of the law, there is no cause.

As far as the "Patriot Act" goes, it does not only apply to terrorism. It states that any agency that has any suspicion of terror activity can circumvent the warrant process alltogether or get warrants issued with less burden. Whatever anyone thinks they know about a warrant, it has nothing to do with the police of DA's. They can suggest it, but a judge has to sign it. Judges do not sign just any warrants. But, the "Patriot Act" has not only already been abused by agencies stating suspects involement in terror as a rational to raid for drugs, weapons, gambling, immigration and others, but now Ashcroft wants it expanded to eliminate burden of proof for law enforcement alltogether in many instances. It is very nearly police state bull####. It is the absolute most UN-AMERICAN thing I have ever seen in my life!

Also, the red eared slider is not native to Michigan. It has become an established animal here due to decades of people dumping pets that they have grown tired of. Even though it is not native to Michigan, they are now trying to say that because it is established here it is indigenous and regulated as a native species. There are dozens of animal species from Asia, Central America and other parts of the world that have become established native populations in Florida, Hawaii and other states. You can collect or kill as many of those as you like. You can collect cobras and iguanas in the everglades free of bag limits. THEY ARE NOT NATIVE SPECIES. They are exotics and therefore are not regulated. But now we have to have paperwork to prove that we are not going out and collecting the most common turtle in the world even though it does not belong here. Sure, that makes great sense.

I would suggest to anyone here that thinks this only happened to those who deserved it and will not happen to them, that their time is coming very soon. This is a progressive movement against us. The government along with the In-"Humane society" and many others have targeted us for elimination. If you do not believ me start looking around. This weekend this raid was not just at one reptile show. It was in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Colorado, Florida and others. Wake up people before all you can is watch.
 
I have read several of the news accounts of this incident, and I get the impression that all of the different news organizations have gotten their information from the same "unnamed sources". One newspaper article had references to cobras and black mambas, in addition to the "native" animals. There was also veiled comments about marijuana and cocaine possession charges being placed. I also read about a ring being targeted for the last 2 years. Is it possible to find objective information about what actually happened and why?
 
I needed coffee when I wrote that. If you've had the reptile for over thirty days or you haven't quarantined it, you can't release it. I seriously doubt the wildlife officers would break that rule, which is very reasonable give the existence of diseases like paramyxo and IBD.
After reading that article, I'm trying to figure out which horribly endangered species they were talking about. According to the DNR, we only have two- the massassagua and the timber rattler. None of these could have been sold at the show. I guess its possible that the guys were selling them somewhere else and the cops just caught them at the show. Or maybe what the guys got in trouble for itsn't what they said in the article. I heard first hand that exotic CITES animals were involved. Well, maybe it was second hand. Close enough.
I must give credit, though, that's the first news article I've ever seen that casts reptiles in a sympathic light. The poor things, being bred in captivity in various attractive color morphs. Maybe they wouldn't be so rare if the state weren't covered in cornfields and Starbucks.

Erin B.
 
!

Here is something that happens in Florida, In Miami where the Jamacan anoles are [which are not native but introduced]all you collecters know where .They have made that area a bird sanctuary and collecting anything is against the law. Hell I can remember last year with my friend Dale, we were collecting these guys and the residents were yelling and threatening to call the cops, needless to say we left with a few Jamacans. how that for a law that protects non natives.
 
Pit tag all natives

I was reading a post on another site from a vendor who was at the Columbus Show.

He said the DNR was confiscating and citing any animal (mostly turtles/tortoises) over 6" native to the united states because the animals were not micro chipped to prove captive breed or properly collected.

Ohio requires chipping on native species but I can't see that every reptile native to the US needs to be tagged.

Anyone else know of this requirement applying on a countrywide basis?

Craig Balester
 
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