Yeah, I can just see me tagging nearly 6,000 baby corn snakes hatching out this season. 
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The Columbus Reptile show was Raided by Fish&wildlife officers
- Thread starter ronb9560
- Start date
Ken Foose
Lurking member
PIJAC
Evan, I understand your comments about PIJAC. However, I tend to disagree with you on this, and here's why. PIJAC will take a much more active roll in reptile related matters, they have stated that themselves. However, you have to understand the situation with PIJAC. PIJAC gets its funding through members payments to them. This pays for all the stuff PIJAC does. In the past several years, membership has fallen greatly. This is due mostly to the rise of the "superstores" ie: Petsmart and Petco. As their numbers grew, more and more mom and pop pet stores fell to the wayside. This ment less revenue to PIJAC. Stores bought other stores out, again, less memberships. Distributors bought out manufacturers, once again, only one membership needed, less money for PIJAC. The consolidation of the pet trade in so many areas has almost been the death of PIJAC. So, now, instead of fighting all the fights that come along, they have to pick and choose the stands they take. And you are correct, this usually means mainstream pets, dogs, cats, that type of thing. But they sure were there for us fighting the Airline bill, when shipping herps by air was almost a thing of the past. I will not even try to go into the many times PIJAC has stepped in on our behalf, usually unknown by us, uncared by us, and hardly ever a thank you to boot. Now, let's look at the situation now. Let's not count pet stores such as myself (even though I am a member of PIJAC). Let's look at all the breeders out there, the wholesalers, importers of herps. I can't even begin to tell you how many there are. Hundreds? More like thousands? Possibly over that? Beats me. But, if EVERY backyard breeder, wholesaler, jobber, importer, broker or whatever actually JOINED PIJAC, I do believe that would be a very large sum of money donated to the cause. I do believe that with that amount of money, that amount of paid members to PIJAC that are dealing in the herp business, a lot more time and effort would go into herp related issues. Call Marshall, ask him what his opinion is. I bet that he will say "hell yea". The only thing stopping them from working harder on our behalf is money, plain and simple. More money means more staff, more travel priorities, more help for us. I say someone contact PIJAC, ask them just how many members in the herp community it will take to get us more noticed. So, here we are. Should we put our money where it will do us all some good, or shall we just start up another nationwide herp network? Just tell me which ones in the past have actually panned out? Not many that I can tell. I say we all join PIJAC, set the agenda ourselves with their past experience and help, and start defending ourselves and our rights, before Doris Day and the USHS and PETA do it for us. Sorry so long, take care
Evan, I understand your comments about PIJAC. However, I tend to disagree with you on this, and here's why. PIJAC will take a much more active roll in reptile related matters, they have stated that themselves. However, you have to understand the situation with PIJAC. PIJAC gets its funding through members payments to them. This pays for all the stuff PIJAC does. In the past several years, membership has fallen greatly. This is due mostly to the rise of the "superstores" ie: Petsmart and Petco. As their numbers grew, more and more mom and pop pet stores fell to the wayside. This ment less revenue to PIJAC. Stores bought other stores out, again, less memberships. Distributors bought out manufacturers, once again, only one membership needed, less money for PIJAC. The consolidation of the pet trade in so many areas has almost been the death of PIJAC. So, now, instead of fighting all the fights that come along, they have to pick and choose the stands they take. And you are correct, this usually means mainstream pets, dogs, cats, that type of thing. But they sure were there for us fighting the Airline bill, when shipping herps by air was almost a thing of the past. I will not even try to go into the many times PIJAC has stepped in on our behalf, usually unknown by us, uncared by us, and hardly ever a thank you to boot. Now, let's look at the situation now. Let's not count pet stores such as myself (even though I am a member of PIJAC). Let's look at all the breeders out there, the wholesalers, importers of herps. I can't even begin to tell you how many there are. Hundreds? More like thousands? Possibly over that? Beats me. But, if EVERY backyard breeder, wholesaler, jobber, importer, broker or whatever actually JOINED PIJAC, I do believe that would be a very large sum of money donated to the cause. I do believe that with that amount of money, that amount of paid members to PIJAC that are dealing in the herp business, a lot more time and effort would go into herp related issues. Call Marshall, ask him what his opinion is. I bet that he will say "hell yea". The only thing stopping them from working harder on our behalf is money, plain and simple. More money means more staff, more travel priorities, more help for us. I say someone contact PIJAC, ask them just how many members in the herp community it will take to get us more noticed. So, here we are. Should we put our money where it will do us all some good, or shall we just start up another nationwide herp network? Just tell me which ones in the past have actually panned out? Not many that I can tell. I say we all join PIJAC, set the agenda ourselves with their past experience and help, and start defending ourselves and our rights, before Doris Day and the USHS and PETA do it for us. Sorry so long, take care
silvano_06095
The Snake Lady
what, Exactly, defines a native snake?
for instance, i have 7 corn snakes currently in my collection. you find tons of corn snakes in connecticut (almost as many as black rats, lol). 6 of the snakes are CB. one is wildcaught from CT.
if the same rules were to apply here about micro-chipping, would i have to chip every corn snake in my collection, or only the wildcaught.. etc.
micro-chipping every native to the US snake in a person's collection is, to be blunt, absurd. like Mr Zuchowski said, that's almost 6,000 snakes a year. they don't actually expect people to do that..... do they??
for instance, i have 7 corn snakes currently in my collection. you find tons of corn snakes in connecticut (almost as many as black rats, lol). 6 of the snakes are CB. one is wildcaught from CT.
if the same rules were to apply here about micro-chipping, would i have to chip every corn snake in my collection, or only the wildcaught.. etc.
micro-chipping every native to the US snake in a person's collection is, to be blunt, absurd. like Mr Zuchowski said, that's almost 6,000 snakes a year. they don't actually expect people to do that..... do they??
meretseger
New member
I'm very fuzzy on what needs to be microchipped here, I'd have to call them and attempt to talk to a knowledgable human. The little pamphlet they hand out makes it look like everything has to be microchipped if it gets over a certain size. Even CBs.
There's no Ohio law about microchipping EVERYTHING, and I really don't think there's a federal law relating to that (they'd have to arrest us all), so it sounds like BS to me. UNLESS it has something to do with CITES animals. That sounds plausible. Or unless they're really planning on arresting us all.
Erin Benner
There's no Ohio law about microchipping EVERYTHING, and I really don't think there's a federal law relating to that (they'd have to arrest us all), so it sounds like BS to me. UNLESS it has something to do with CITES animals. That sounds plausible. Or unless they're really planning on arresting us all.
Erin Benner
Ken Harbart
New member
As per the OH statute, only turtles & snakes native to OH need to be microchipped. Turtles 4" and above, and snakes 18" and above (SVL) are required to be chipped.
Only OH residents can possess native herps, and must keep fairly comprehensive records on each specimen. Ohio's page on their licensing requirements can be viewed here.
All in all, this is just one more reason why I avoided OH when I lived up north. Gov Taft and the Ohio legislature (with exceptions) do not care about the rights of their constituents, much less nonresidents
Only OH residents can possess native herps, and must keep fairly comprehensive records on each specimen. Ohio's page on their licensing requirements can be viewed here.
All in all, this is just one more reason why I avoided OH when I lived up north. Gov Taft and the Ohio legislature (with exceptions) do not care about the rights of their constituents, much less nonresidents
silvano_06095
The Snake Lady
two questions
turtles and snakes native to OH need to be micro-chipped. does this include CB's, even those bought outside of Ohio?
(for instance, if i bought a black rat snake snake from a dealer in, say, florida, would i have to have it micro-chipped upon it's arrival to ohio?)
also, you said only OH residents can possess native herps. sorry for my lack of understanding.. but who does that rule exclude? can businesses not own or sell them? or can you not sell a native herp out of state?
i think i still need coffee.
turtles and snakes native to OH need to be micro-chipped. does this include CB's, even those bought outside of Ohio?
(for instance, if i bought a black rat snake snake from a dealer in, say, florida, would i have to have it micro-chipped upon it's arrival to ohio?)
also, you said only OH residents can possess native herps. sorry for my lack of understanding.. but who does that rule exclude? can businesses not own or sell them? or can you not sell a native herp out of state?
i think i still need coffee.
evansnakes
New member
Ken, I do not want you to think that I am attacking you or getting upset as you can't read tone in text sometimes. As somebody who has been extremely closely involved in the pet trade and reptile trade for 15 or more years now I really do understand everything that you are saying but do not agree with it all. Some of what you said was in agreement with points I laid out and consolidation is part of the natural evolution of every industry in a modern industrial society. It is just reality. But, the main motivating factor is money. PIJAC has only 6-8% of it's member sales coming from reptiles that sets it's priority level. When Ed Koch and the State of New York moved to ban pit bulls every pet involved corporation that sells dogs, dog related dry goods, kennels, breeders groups and associations and PIJAC all moved in and spent an enormous amount of money to get that bill defeated. Reason? Do they think pit bulls are that important? No. They fear foot in the door legislation. If they ban pit bulls as dangerous animals, what follows? German shepards, rottweilers, dobermans, akitas, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. Knowing this and also knowing that dog food and dry good sales alone in the USA last year were in the billions of dollars, they could not take a chance. We do not offer that kind of plight. If reptiles are banned tomorrow, the few stores that sell herps but do specialize in them would add more fish or dry goods or whatever. Reptiles specialty stores make up way less than 1% of pet stores in the country. So it will not be a major concern for PIJAC until there is more incentive which at this time may never come due to the government.
As for your comments about breeders and importers joining PIJAC, maybe they should and maybe they should not. I personally have supported PIJAC by making donations at auctions the past few years that raise money for them but I will still tell you that I do not think they are our salvation. The only hope that we have is an unprecedented rallying of the troops, a circling of wagons, a union. We need a powerful united voice coming from the reptile owners of this country to scare politicians into believing we are a force to be reckoned with and will vote them out of office if they screw us. I would love to see it happen but doubt it will. I personally reached out to people that I was at odds with today and yesterday, to offer my help with this wave of raids and the legal outcome in the next couple weeks. The fallout is going to be substantial.
As for your comments about breeders and importers joining PIJAC, maybe they should and maybe they should not. I personally have supported PIJAC by making donations at auctions the past few years that raise money for them but I will still tell you that I do not think they are our salvation. The only hope that we have is an unprecedented rallying of the troops, a circling of wagons, a union. We need a powerful united voice coming from the reptile owners of this country to scare politicians into believing we are a force to be reckoned with and will vote them out of office if they screw us. I would love to see it happen but doubt it will. I personally reached out to people that I was at odds with today and yesterday, to offer my help with this wave of raids and the legal outcome in the next couple weeks. The fallout is going to be substantial.
sschind
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2002
- Messages
- 1,046
- Reaction score
- 54
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- 48
- Age
- 61
- Location
- Twin Lakes Wisconsin USA
I can't speak for other states but here in Wisconsin the laws regarding Native herps are pretty much straight foreward.
1. No native Wisconsin herps (with the exception of 3 or 4 amphibs) may be SOLD as pets. that includes petshops, swaps yard sales what have you.
2. Sales of native herptiles legally collected from or purchased from out of state are restricted to unprotected species and may be sold in WI only to educational or research institutions for educational or research purposes if you have a valid Commercial Herptile permit. To me this means that just because you are a teacher and are going to keep the animal in your classroom it still does not make it ok since you are not an institution.
3. No exceptions are made for CB animals. Documentation for CB are spotty at best in many cases so how could you prove it was CB and not WC. Especially if you didn't have the adults.
4. Exceptions are made for albinos etc.
5. Possession of certain animals is prohibited.
6. Possession of some animals is regulated. There are possesion limits on some animals, some have to have proof that they were purchased legaly from out of state. Some animals have closed and open seasons (frogs and turtle have seasons so it is apparently illegal to keep any native wisconsin turtle or frog year round)
7. Possesion of some animals is open, no restrictions.
I've just hit a few highlights. I have a copy of the regs from the DNR If anyone has any specific questions just email me and I will try to answer them. If I can figure out how to work a scanner I will scan the document and post it somewhere. When I first opened my store the laws were not so strict. The only thing that was regulated were the threatened or endangered species. Still, I decided that I would not sell any native species simply to eliminate any possible questions. This included Subspecies that were not found in WI but might look similar enough to cause confusion (eatern and western fox snakes, almost any thamnophis sirtalis subspecies, Pine and gopher snakes etc) I did not deem it neccessary to eliminate most of the Lampropeltis triangulum subspecies since I doubted that even the most ignorant law enforcement official would confuse an Eastern milk for a Sinaloan. When I read the law however, even though it says Eastern Milk snake, it only lists the scientific name as Lampropeltis triangulum and not L. t. triangulum. the same goes for the fox snake. It says western but lists it only as E. vulpina. so if they follow that I suppose they could raise a stink if they wanted to get technical. The TARAH newsletter has an article regarding the issue of subspecies in Illinois. It might be available from Lee Watsons website. You can find a link to that on that other reptile site.
Many of you who know me well enough know that I have no sympathy for people who break the law, I have said that time and again on this site and others. Still, the points that Evan and others have brought up about some of the people being targeted has me concerned. It is not enough to do everything by the book now days. You have to be sure that everyone you deal with does things by the book as well or you may find yourself guilty by association
Steve Schindler
1. No native Wisconsin herps (with the exception of 3 or 4 amphibs) may be SOLD as pets. that includes petshops, swaps yard sales what have you.
2. Sales of native herptiles legally collected from or purchased from out of state are restricted to unprotected species and may be sold in WI only to educational or research institutions for educational or research purposes if you have a valid Commercial Herptile permit. To me this means that just because you are a teacher and are going to keep the animal in your classroom it still does not make it ok since you are not an institution.
3. No exceptions are made for CB animals. Documentation for CB are spotty at best in many cases so how could you prove it was CB and not WC. Especially if you didn't have the adults.
4. Exceptions are made for albinos etc.
5. Possession of certain animals is prohibited.
6. Possession of some animals is regulated. There are possesion limits on some animals, some have to have proof that they were purchased legaly from out of state. Some animals have closed and open seasons (frogs and turtle have seasons so it is apparently illegal to keep any native wisconsin turtle or frog year round)
7. Possesion of some animals is open, no restrictions.
I've just hit a few highlights. I have a copy of the regs from the DNR If anyone has any specific questions just email me and I will try to answer them. If I can figure out how to work a scanner I will scan the document and post it somewhere. When I first opened my store the laws were not so strict. The only thing that was regulated were the threatened or endangered species. Still, I decided that I would not sell any native species simply to eliminate any possible questions. This included Subspecies that were not found in WI but might look similar enough to cause confusion (eatern and western fox snakes, almost any thamnophis sirtalis subspecies, Pine and gopher snakes etc) I did not deem it neccessary to eliminate most of the Lampropeltis triangulum subspecies since I doubted that even the most ignorant law enforcement official would confuse an Eastern milk for a Sinaloan. When I read the law however, even though it says Eastern Milk snake, it only lists the scientific name as Lampropeltis triangulum and not L. t. triangulum. the same goes for the fox snake. It says western but lists it only as E. vulpina. so if they follow that I suppose they could raise a stink if they wanted to get technical. The TARAH newsletter has an article regarding the issue of subspecies in Illinois. It might be available from Lee Watsons website. You can find a link to that on that other reptile site.
Many of you who know me well enough know that I have no sympathy for people who break the law, I have said that time and again on this site and others. Still, the points that Evan and others have brought up about some of the people being targeted has me concerned. It is not enough to do everything by the book now days. You have to be sure that everyone you deal with does things by the book as well or you may find yourself guilty by association
Steve Schindler
I have my Propagation Permit to legally sell reptiles in Ohio. Here is the list they gave me with my permit that you need I.D. chips for. you can also buy them for $5.00 (box of 100) & $20 for the applicator.
here is the info for the tags & applicator:
Division of Wildlife Headquarters
1840 Belcher Drive
Columbus ,OH 43224
1-800-wildlife
here are the reptiles you need a tags for:
Common Musk Turtle
Common Snapping Turtle
Spotted Turtle
Eastern Box turtle
Blanding's Turtle
Common Map Turtle
Ouachita Map Turtle
Midland Painted Turtle
Red-eared Silder
Eastern Spiny Softshell Turtle
Midland Smooth Softshell Turtle
Nothern Fence Lizard
Ground Sklink
Five-lined Skink
Broadhead Skink
Nothern Coral Skink
European Wall Lizard
Queen Snake
Kirtland's Snake
Nothern Water Snake
Lake Erie Water Snake
Copper belly Water Snake
Nothern Brown Snake
Nothern Redbelly Snake
Eastern Garter Snake
Eastern Plains Garter Snake
Butlers Garter Snake
Shorthead Garter Snake
Eastern Ribbon Snake
Nothern Ribbon Snake
Eastern Hognose Snake
Nothern Ringneck Snake
Midwest Worm Snake
Eastern Worm Snake
Black Racer
Blue Racer
Rough Green Snake
Smooth Green Snake
Black Rat Snake
Eastern Fox Snake
Black King Snake
Eastern Milk Snake
Nothern Copper Head
Eastern Massasauga
Timber Rattlesnake
If you live in Ohio and dont own any of these reptiles then you dont need any tags. only for whats on the list. if you would like a copy of the Amphibians you need tags for just email me.
here is the info for the tags & applicator:
Division of Wildlife Headquarters
1840 Belcher Drive
Columbus ,OH 43224
1-800-wildlife
here are the reptiles you need a tags for:
Common Musk Turtle
Common Snapping Turtle
Spotted Turtle
Eastern Box turtle
Blanding's Turtle
Common Map Turtle
Ouachita Map Turtle
Midland Painted Turtle
Red-eared Silder
Eastern Spiny Softshell Turtle
Midland Smooth Softshell Turtle
Nothern Fence Lizard
Ground Sklink
Five-lined Skink
Broadhead Skink
Nothern Coral Skink
European Wall Lizard
Queen Snake
Kirtland's Snake
Nothern Water Snake
Lake Erie Water Snake
Copper belly Water Snake
Nothern Brown Snake
Nothern Redbelly Snake
Eastern Garter Snake
Eastern Plains Garter Snake
Butlers Garter Snake
Shorthead Garter Snake
Eastern Ribbon Snake
Nothern Ribbon Snake
Eastern Hognose Snake
Nothern Ringneck Snake
Midwest Worm Snake
Eastern Worm Snake
Black Racer
Blue Racer
Rough Green Snake
Smooth Green Snake
Black Rat Snake
Eastern Fox Snake
Black King Snake
Eastern Milk Snake
Nothern Copper Head
Eastern Massasauga
Timber Rattlesnake
If you live in Ohio and dont own any of these reptiles then you dont need any tags. only for whats on the list. if you would like a copy of the Amphibians you need tags for just email me.
evansnakes
New member
Like Steve posted concerning Wisconsin, most states recognize obvious genetic mutations as exempt from restrictions. How would you ever collect a large number of hatchling albino corns, kings, milks, rats, etc.? They would obviously be CB. But, here is the stinger, Ohio refuses to exempt any mutation from the restrictions on native animals. So all of us that have sold albino, leucistic, white sided and other black ratsnake mutations are taking a hit for it as they still consider them to fit inside the guidelines for their restrictions. I mentioned to Ohio DNR today that every animal I have as far as black rats go (albinos and white sides) came CB from states where they are not protected and I can document that, also, I have pics of mine breeding, laying eggs and eggs hatching to prove they were produced her by me. The response was simple, it is all irrelevant. Now I can not sit here and blast Ohio. And I can't tell you that I have been harmed that much by this. Some really good friends of mine are going to probably pay some big fines. Some people that were raided are going to more than likely go to jail. That is tough. What I can say with pride, that has been told to me by both Michigan and Ohio authorities, is that they have investigated and watched me since 2001. In that time, the only law that I broke (I had no idea that I did) was to sell 1 baby albino black ratsnake in Ohio for $35. I feel pretty good about myself for that.
As far as the business of reptiles in Ohio goes, it is not looking good. Ohio was always one of the most laid back states. Now it moves to one of the most regulated. You can decide if that is good or bad. I will put this to you guys though, as a breeder in Michigan I live exactly 60 miles from Ohio. Now that they will be requiring a veteranarians health certificate for every single animal that I would want to take to Ohio to sell, I am unable to do another show in Ohio. That makes me very sad. I first set up at the Columbus show over 12 years ago. I have done many great shows in Toledo, Cleveland, Dayton and other parts of the state over the past decade. There are many many great people that I only get to see in Ohio at those shows. Simple math tells me though, even at a greatly discounted rate, a vet health cert is still going to be $5-10 (normally $15-25). But if I want to take 100 snakes, with that additional cost of $500-1000, it is not viable for me. I am not so rich that I can always spend more doing shows than I will make. How many of us are?
So now I am going to be quietly researching legal decisions and legislation existing up to this point to allow me to go and negotiate with my state DNR to try to avoid these problems with my annual show in November.
I would like to mention one other thing to you guys about this whole deal. Keep in mind that some of the animals that have come into question with this investigation are leucistic texas rats, arizona mountain kings, western hognose, gila monsters, black mambas, black ratsnakes, etc. This is quite a diverse group of both native and non native animals. The charges varied from little misdemeanors to large felonies. So start thinking about your collection at home or what you have in your pet store. Are you violating any local laws? How about state ones? Do you know that every animal you have ever bought was legal? Do you have your receipt for anything that may be questionable? Have you ever sold something that maybe you should not have? It is a lot to take in and it is easy to make a little mistake. For all of you, for your own safety, please start covering every angle and taking care of yourself. If you buy an animal on the net from somebody, get a receipt that states it is either captive bred or that it was collected where it was legal to do so. If they can't honestly give you that, drop the deal. Even more so in person at a reptile show or even from a good friend. One of the undercover agents pretended to be good friends with a couple dealers for years just to get incriminating evidence against them. It is hard to believe but they will go that far. Please be careful.
As far as the business of reptiles in Ohio goes, it is not looking good. Ohio was always one of the most laid back states. Now it moves to one of the most regulated. You can decide if that is good or bad. I will put this to you guys though, as a breeder in Michigan I live exactly 60 miles from Ohio. Now that they will be requiring a veteranarians health certificate for every single animal that I would want to take to Ohio to sell, I am unable to do another show in Ohio. That makes me very sad. I first set up at the Columbus show over 12 years ago. I have done many great shows in Toledo, Cleveland, Dayton and other parts of the state over the past decade. There are many many great people that I only get to see in Ohio at those shows. Simple math tells me though, even at a greatly discounted rate, a vet health cert is still going to be $5-10 (normally $15-25). But if I want to take 100 snakes, with that additional cost of $500-1000, it is not viable for me. I am not so rich that I can always spend more doing shows than I will make. How many of us are?
So now I am going to be quietly researching legal decisions and legislation existing up to this point to allow me to go and negotiate with my state DNR to try to avoid these problems with my annual show in November.
I would like to mention one other thing to you guys about this whole deal. Keep in mind that some of the animals that have come into question with this investigation are leucistic texas rats, arizona mountain kings, western hognose, gila monsters, black mambas, black ratsnakes, etc. This is quite a diverse group of both native and non native animals. The charges varied from little misdemeanors to large felonies. So start thinking about your collection at home or what you have in your pet store. Are you violating any local laws? How about state ones? Do you know that every animal you have ever bought was legal? Do you have your receipt for anything that may be questionable? Have you ever sold something that maybe you should not have? It is a lot to take in and it is easy to make a little mistake. For all of you, for your own safety, please start covering every angle and taking care of yourself. If you buy an animal on the net from somebody, get a receipt that states it is either captive bred or that it was collected where it was legal to do so. If they can't honestly give you that, drop the deal. Even more so in person at a reptile show or even from a good friend. One of the undercover agents pretended to be good friends with a couple dealers for years just to get incriminating evidence against them. It is hard to believe but they will go that far. Please be careful.
Future
I have to agree with Evan here, as much as I feel that PIJAC is a worthwhile organization and a great source of information, and probably very much worth a donation, they do not solve the problem. As an individual who at the present has only reptiles and any future business will be with reptiles I am looking for an entity that primarly concerns itself with the reptile trade. Or more simple put will PIJAC be able to fight a worthwhile battle for an excemption of albino black ratsnake from the laws pertaining to black ratsnakes. PIJAC is another voice to be heard but in concert with the herp community not to rely on it in its own right.
What we are getting is a government organization (state DNR)that is taking the laws vague terminology and using it to its own end. Ohio isnt banning reptiles, their just making it so hard to own them that its almost the same thing. And forget about bringing any into the state for sale that fit into classification of native. And then you wonder if the next step is stop internet sales to the state of OH by forcing them to adhere to the same laws. Use of a simple term of "imported into the state" has a far reaching potential.
I have to agree with Evan here, as much as I feel that PIJAC is a worthwhile organization and a great source of information, and probably very much worth a donation, they do not solve the problem. As an individual who at the present has only reptiles and any future business will be with reptiles I am looking for an entity that primarly concerns itself with the reptile trade. Or more simple put will PIJAC be able to fight a worthwhile battle for an excemption of albino black ratsnake from the laws pertaining to black ratsnakes. PIJAC is another voice to be heard but in concert with the herp community not to rely on it in its own right.
What we are getting is a government organization (state DNR)that is taking the laws vague terminology and using it to its own end. Ohio isnt banning reptiles, their just making it so hard to own them that its almost the same thing. And forget about bringing any into the state for sale that fit into classification of native. And then you wonder if the next step is stop internet sales to the state of OH by forcing them to adhere to the same laws. Use of a simple term of "imported into the state" has a far reaching potential.
Classic Dum's
Twisted Sister
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2002
- Messages
- 791
- Reaction score
- 7
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- 0
- Age
- 50
- Location
- york, pa land of the free!
We need volunteers, concerning our rights as herpers(EVERYONE PLEASE READ)
We need volunteers to work as liaisons between the herp societies. Were going to need atleast(preferably more) one person from each state who has some extra time and doesn’t mind a few extra dollars on their long distance phone bills. What we are going to start doing is contacting each herp society within your state and letting them know of our presence. Compile a full list of every herp society that is out there. Get a web site up and running with all the herp societies and all the local and state laws for each state so people will know their rights as they stand. From there get all the info on laws and legislation working against us and a line the herp societies to get their members active in fighting these laws.
So what well need is people who don’t mind spending some extra time to start contacting the herp societies within their state. If a law pops up within your state or county well need you to find the actual proposed law, all the info pertaining to the time, date and place it is to be heard. Contact info for the author of the law and any other senator’s, local officials etc that will be hearing the law and can be contacted concerning the proposed law. From that point we get the word out to anyone and everyone we can. Contact all the herp societies within that state and try to get as many people their present as we can when the proposed law is being reviewed. The simple fact of the matter is if we don’t do something and NOW! Some day these forums will be filled with “remember back when I had that boa”. We have a lot of huge groups working against us that have man power and money. We got the man power we just need to get everyone working to together.
Anyone interested in helping or anyone who has ideas how to make this more effective please email me. Also anyone who knows of a herp society please email and let me know how to contact them. Not all herp societies can be found on the web. So till I can get enough people up and running I will start compiling this info. Also anyone who knows of a state or local law in effect or that is being pushed through that can forward me that info I would appreciate that as well. Also I could use a web designer that doesn’t mind volunteering time. If you interesting in help please send me you phone number within the email so I can call you.
I will be posting this in many different forums on different sites and will not be able to respond and or read every reply in all the places I will post it, I will do my best to go back and check everyone but if you feel you have anything that may be of help please email it along with posting the info. Without Thousands of dollars to start this I don’t see any other way we can effectively fight these laws aside from setting up a volunteer liaison in ever state and using the already established resources there. So please we have to get this together.
The is a bill now being passed in Louisiana and the way it is written up they are giving the department of wildlife and fish full authority to drafts laws they see fit pertaining to all constrictors and venomous species or reptiles. If it is passed it could have a detrimental effect on everyone of us. You may not think Louisiana laws have anything to do with you, but think about how many customers you have or may in the future lose there. Also laws like these can be used as examples within other states! Your state may be next! Thanks for your time, Jason
http://www.legis.state.la.us/leg_docs/03RS/CVT1/OUT/0000KMD0.PDF
We need volunteers to work as liaisons between the herp societies. Were going to need atleast(preferably more) one person from each state who has some extra time and doesn’t mind a few extra dollars on their long distance phone bills. What we are going to start doing is contacting each herp society within your state and letting them know of our presence. Compile a full list of every herp society that is out there. Get a web site up and running with all the herp societies and all the local and state laws for each state so people will know their rights as they stand. From there get all the info on laws and legislation working against us and a line the herp societies to get their members active in fighting these laws.
So what well need is people who don’t mind spending some extra time to start contacting the herp societies within their state. If a law pops up within your state or county well need you to find the actual proposed law, all the info pertaining to the time, date and place it is to be heard. Contact info for the author of the law and any other senator’s, local officials etc that will be hearing the law and can be contacted concerning the proposed law. From that point we get the word out to anyone and everyone we can. Contact all the herp societies within that state and try to get as many people their present as we can when the proposed law is being reviewed. The simple fact of the matter is if we don’t do something and NOW! Some day these forums will be filled with “remember back when I had that boa”. We have a lot of huge groups working against us that have man power and money. We got the man power we just need to get everyone working to together.
Anyone interested in helping or anyone who has ideas how to make this more effective please email me. Also anyone who knows of a herp society please email and let me know how to contact them. Not all herp societies can be found on the web. So till I can get enough people up and running I will start compiling this info. Also anyone who knows of a state or local law in effect or that is being pushed through that can forward me that info I would appreciate that as well. Also I could use a web designer that doesn’t mind volunteering time. If you interesting in help please send me you phone number within the email so I can call you.
I will be posting this in many different forums on different sites and will not be able to respond and or read every reply in all the places I will post it, I will do my best to go back and check everyone but if you feel you have anything that may be of help please email it along with posting the info. Without Thousands of dollars to start this I don’t see any other way we can effectively fight these laws aside from setting up a volunteer liaison in ever state and using the already established resources there. So please we have to get this together.
The is a bill now being passed in Louisiana and the way it is written up they are giving the department of wildlife and fish full authority to drafts laws they see fit pertaining to all constrictors and venomous species or reptiles. If it is passed it could have a detrimental effect on everyone of us. You may not think Louisiana laws have anything to do with you, but think about how many customers you have or may in the future lose there. Also laws like these can be used as examples within other states! Your state may be next! Thanks for your time, Jason
http://www.legis.state.la.us/leg_docs/03RS/CVT1/OUT/0000KMD0.PDF
evansnakes
New member
Jason, I am glad that you want to help but I really believe you are going in a bad direction. Herp societies are a thing of the past. The big strong organizations are all now very small and poorly attended. Between herp shows and the internet, most people don't feel they have any reason to be in one anymore. NOAH in Ohio and MSH in Michigan used to have hundreds of members years ago and would have an enormous mailing list. These days they have less than a hundred active members and have little influence on things.
I still tell you all that the way to go is simple. Get as many people as you can to give their name/address/email/phone number info to one master list. This list can then be used as a big head start for petitions and signature drives in any state/county/city. To get enough people you need to sign people up at herp shows and pet shops all over the country. To accomplish this, you need to do it via the net and send people to the site via notices everywhere. Fliers, ads, emails, snail mail, etc. I am still looking into doing this. It is about the only way to go. For those of you that have never tried to get people involved in something against government legislation before, let me tell you here, it is very very hard to do. People do not want to be involved for fear that if it goes poorly they have given themselves away as a potential target as well as people who know that they are violating laws and do not want to advertise the fact to the government. It has a lot of downside and takes some courage.
Even going to a busy mall or shopping center and gathering signatures and info for future use is a good idea. It is all a numbers game. You need to get as many people as possible to give you their info. You could get more people at one large herp show than you will get from a handful of herp societies.
I have been getting a bunch of emails and phone calls from people who want to help and that is great, but there are so many of you talking about doing your own thing to help that it is just doing more splintering. There needs to just be one organisation, not 3 or 4. That only weakens us, stretching things out further. One united front is how the war needs to be won. Anyone that wants to gather support, start doing that. Wether it is me or somebody else we will get one path going in the right direction. We just need to pull everybody together. Breeders, dealers, show promoters, importers, hobbiests, website operators, pet shop owners, etc, etc. It is time that people have to be made to realize that it is now or never. We can stand up and be counted and fight the fight or become law breakers hiding herps in our house and not letting anyone know that we have them. That is what is happening in most of Europe now. Many countries, including England, have banned herp shows, restricted herp sales and herp keeping. Banning the majority of animals not because they are native or endangered but because the government feels people should not have them. I do not think any of you want that to happen here.
I still tell you all that the way to go is simple. Get as many people as you can to give their name/address/email/phone number info to one master list. This list can then be used as a big head start for petitions and signature drives in any state/county/city. To get enough people you need to sign people up at herp shows and pet shops all over the country. To accomplish this, you need to do it via the net and send people to the site via notices everywhere. Fliers, ads, emails, snail mail, etc. I am still looking into doing this. It is about the only way to go. For those of you that have never tried to get people involved in something against government legislation before, let me tell you here, it is very very hard to do. People do not want to be involved for fear that if it goes poorly they have given themselves away as a potential target as well as people who know that they are violating laws and do not want to advertise the fact to the government. It has a lot of downside and takes some courage.
Even going to a busy mall or shopping center and gathering signatures and info for future use is a good idea. It is all a numbers game. You need to get as many people as possible to give you their info. You could get more people at one large herp show than you will get from a handful of herp societies.
I have been getting a bunch of emails and phone calls from people who want to help and that is great, but there are so many of you talking about doing your own thing to help that it is just doing more splintering. There needs to just be one organisation, not 3 or 4. That only weakens us, stretching things out further. One united front is how the war needs to be won. Anyone that wants to gather support, start doing that. Wether it is me or somebody else we will get one path going in the right direction. We just need to pull everybody together. Breeders, dealers, show promoters, importers, hobbiests, website operators, pet shop owners, etc, etc. It is time that people have to be made to realize that it is now or never. We can stand up and be counted and fight the fight or become law breakers hiding herps in our house and not letting anyone know that we have them. That is what is happening in most of Europe now. Many countries, including England, have banned herp shows, restricted herp sales and herp keeping. Banning the majority of animals not because they are native or endangered but because the government feels people should not have them. I do not think any of you want that to happen here.
herpetological
New member
Legislation
I have to disagree in regards to the statements involving herp societies. The problem has always been in two main areas...1)Most are not societies, they are a group of 3-5 people making decisions for the other 40 plus members. 2) Members are too busy playing with egos... We are putting together a regional herp
society this week. We will have members from three counties. The initial meeting alone will have over 20 SERIOUS breeders and herpers. (That will be just to map our directions and goals)They all know to check their egos at the door and how to get down to business!!! I agree that numbers will be important to sway lawmakers however, a handful of SERIOUS, INTELLIGENT, INFORMED people with backgrounds in public matters can convince more people than a 100 uninformed people and faceless signatures.(Not that we don't need the support!) Also, we definately need a SINGLE unified strong voice!!! All factions will be important on this. I recall seeing a thread about the laws regarding pit bulls in N.Y. We have a fairly large industry in regards to herp support companies as well!(Cages, lighting,vitamins, food etc. etc.) I'm sure this would impact them as well as the everyday hobbiest! Well, if I had more time I'd love
to elaborate more but, right now we'll leave it as," food for
thought!"
Thanks Ray Goushaw HBR www.herpbreedingresearch.com
I have to disagree in regards to the statements involving herp societies. The problem has always been in two main areas...1)Most are not societies, they are a group of 3-5 people making decisions for the other 40 plus members. 2) Members are too busy playing with egos... We are putting together a regional herp
society this week. We will have members from three counties. The initial meeting alone will have over 20 SERIOUS breeders and herpers. (That will be just to map our directions and goals)They all know to check their egos at the door and how to get down to business!!! I agree that numbers will be important to sway lawmakers however, a handful of SERIOUS, INTELLIGENT, INFORMED people with backgrounds in public matters can convince more people than a 100 uninformed people and faceless signatures.(Not that we don't need the support!) Also, we definately need a SINGLE unified strong voice!!! All factions will be important on this. I recall seeing a thread about the laws regarding pit bulls in N.Y. We have a fairly large industry in regards to herp support companies as well!(Cages, lighting,vitamins, food etc. etc.) I'm sure this would impact them as well as the everyday hobbiest! Well, if I had more time I'd love
to elaborate more but, right now we'll leave it as," food for
thought!"
Thanks Ray Goushaw HBR www.herpbreedingresearch.com
Adamanteus
New member
ODNR press release
Here is the ODNR's own press release. also states everyone that was charged and what the charges were.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/news/jul03/0702eandt.htm
Here is the ODNR's own press release. also states everyone that was charged and what the charges were.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/news/jul03/0702eandt.htm
Adamanteus
New member
ODNR breaking there own laws?
"What we've seized will be put back in the wild in their (rightful) habitat. There's a niche those reptiles fill," Reda said.
____________________________________________________
A reptile or amphibian that has been captively produced or is not native to Ohio may not be released into the wild. Only
reptiles/amphibians that were taken from the wild may be released back into the wild and only if:
• they have not been held in captivity, in the same
enclosure, with any other reptile or amphibian, except
when used as a food for another captive reptile or
amphibian, and
• they have not been in captivity for more than 30 days,
and
• they are released near the point of capture, or, you first
have written authorization from the chief of the Division
of Wildlife.
(copied directly from ODNR's reptile regulations)
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/license/pub3_02.htm
"What we've seized will be put back in the wild in their (rightful) habitat. There's a niche those reptiles fill," Reda said.
____________________________________________________
A reptile or amphibian that has been captively produced or is not native to Ohio may not be released into the wild. Only
reptiles/amphibians that were taken from the wild may be released back into the wild and only if:
• they have not been held in captivity, in the same
enclosure, with any other reptile or amphibian, except
when used as a food for another captive reptile or
amphibian, and
• they have not been in captivity for more than 30 days,
and
• they are released near the point of capture, or, you first
have written authorization from the chief of the Division
of Wildlife.
(copied directly from ODNR's reptile regulations)
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/license/pub3_02.htm
Adamanteus
New member
?
Also the press stated that Texas rat snakes and a black mamba was seized. what laws were either breaking? the ONLY laws in Ohio pertain to native species. Have the laws changed? Or do they just need to reread there own administrative code? Here is the link to the complete regulation pamphlet(in PDF) that they distributed to the public in layman's terms.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/PDF/pub03.pdf
(the actual Ohio revised code and Ohio administrative code that this pamphlet was taken from is actually easier to read and makes more sence to me)
the only problem I ever had with these laws was the fact that the 10 gauge needle used to insert the PIT tags is not safe to use with some of our smaller natives at 18 inch. such as the ribbon, ringneck, garter , rough green snakes ect.(IMHO) the other problem I have is they need to make acceptations for Cb native morphs if they can be documented as being CB and purchased from out of state. such as other states with similar laws do.
to change laws like these we need leadership and organization I'm willing to help with any good ideas just email me
Also the press stated that Texas rat snakes and a black mamba was seized. what laws were either breaking? the ONLY laws in Ohio pertain to native species. Have the laws changed? Or do they just need to reread there own administrative code? Here is the link to the complete regulation pamphlet(in PDF) that they distributed to the public in layman's terms.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/PDF/pub03.pdf
(the actual Ohio revised code and Ohio administrative code that this pamphlet was taken from is actually easier to read and makes more sence to me)
the only problem I ever had with these laws was the fact that the 10 gauge needle used to insert the PIT tags is not safe to use with some of our smaller natives at 18 inch. such as the ribbon, ringneck, garter , rough green snakes ect.(IMHO) the other problem I have is they need to make acceptations for Cb native morphs if they can be documented as being CB and purchased from out of state. such as other states with similar laws do.
to change laws like these we need leadership and organization I'm willing to help with any good ideas just email me
Clay Davenport
Cerebral Nomad
Unless I am mistaken, the mamba was confiscated in Indiana, not Ohio.
Likewise the comment in the DNR report about the collector allegedly taking 2000 snakes in 3 days makes no mention that that supposed activity happened out west while the guy was on vacation, and not in Ohio.
sschind
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2002
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- 1,046
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I am assuming that at least some of the 2000 snakes were of species found in Ohio even if not collected there. If he did collect them legaly outside of Ohio, what kind of documentation did he provide? More importantly, for future reference, what kind of documentation could you provide to prove that these were legally collected for out of state.
Steve Schindler
Clay Davenport
Cerebral Nomad
As best as I can tell from the news reports the person claiming to have collected those snakes was not implicated in the raids, he just made the statement to DNR.
They in turn used the quote in several news articles and in their report. The only basis I can see for doing that was to add a bit of sensationalism to the story, and to make things out to be a huge problem, and thereby giving weight to their case for intervention.
I personally doubt that the guy actually collected that many snakes in 3 days.
Here is an example of the use of this story. This quote was from Jim Lehman, district manager of the Ohio Division of Wildlife in Columbus.
They in turn used the quote in several news articles and in their report. The only basis I can see for doing that was to add a bit of sensationalism to the story, and to make things out to be a huge problem, and thereby giving weight to their case for intervention.
I personally doubt that the guy actually collected that many snakes in 3 days.
Here is an example of the use of this story. This quote was from Jim Lehman, district manager of the Ohio Division of Wildlife in Columbus.
Looks to me like he's using unsubstantiated statements he supposedly was given during the course of the undercover investigation to inflate the idea that these are people who practice wholesale rape on native herp populations..