The Columbus Reptile show was Raided by Fish&wildlife officers

[Darin Chappell]

Just for a bit of perspective on the 2,000 snake collected in a three day period, that means that this mystery collecter had to have collected one snake every 2.16 minutes without eating, sleeping, or taking care of any other "necessities" for three days straight! Uh . . .RIGHT!!!!


It is possible that someone could collect that many animals at the den site of a bunch of garters in the spring, but who would want that many garters for ANY reason? I think the whole thing was bogus, using inflated numbers to try to justify DNR funding requests!

 

[Clay Davenport]

Exactly Darin, I agree completely.
I hadn't done the figures on it, but that definately puts it in a whole different light.

One snake every 2 minutes..... :laugh: ..... yeah right.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Actually, I can't take total credit for the figures. I did my own math (honest, teacher, I did!), but I think it was Gerry B. from the Field Herepers forum on www.fieldherpers.com that I first saw addressing the ridiculous nature of that claim in that way!

 

[sschind]

I need to clarify something i said in a previous post. I made the comment that Wisconsin makes exceptions when it come to atypically colored or patterned specimens (albinos etc) This only applies to possesion limits of animals that are not listed as endangered or threatened. currently such animals are

endangered
Blanchards cricket frog
E. massasauga
ornate box turtle
N. ribbon snake
queen snake
W. ribbon snake
W. slander glass lizard

threatened
Blandings turtle
Butler Garter snake
Wood turtle

It is illegal to own even albino specimens of these species. it is non threatened and non endangered species that the exception applies. WI does have a max possesion limit of 5 of most of their native herps with a few exceptions.

Sorry for any confusion.

I just received an email from Bob Hay, the endangered rescources manager for the WI DNR and he informed me that the information in publication PUB-ER-102 00 is still current so if you want the full lowdown on WI native herp regs, contact your local DNR office and request that publication. I tried to find the info on line but I got frustrated with my slow connection.

Steve Schindler

 

[evansnakes]

What kind of person becomes involved with undercover wildlife investigations? Well one of the states "star" guys who attempted to set up dozens of people and did set up several, broke numerous laws himself. He sold animals to dealers stating that they were captive bred and even writing reciepts in some cases attesting to that. Later, when they revealed he was an officer, he now says that the dealers knew that they animals were not captive bred. Huh? Two dealers hit with more serious charges were with this same agent smoking pot and drinking while driving. That is some good law enforcement there! This agent crossed state lines with collected and protected animals with are federal crimes. He attempted to entrap several dealers for years coming to show after show with illegal animals pushing them on dealers over and over again. REALLY GREAT ETHICS!!! The Ohio fish and wildlife department makes reptile industry people out to be worse than drug dealers! They spent a HUGE pile of tax dollars in this operation. What are the bulk of the charges listed in their press release? Minor misdemeanors. The vast majority of the people they have gone after are good people. They have not seized a large number of illegally collected native wildlife. They have seized a bunch of super common captive bred animals. They have also seized animals from people that are not native, protected, endangered or regulated by them in any other way. How in the hell does the state of Ohio have the right to seize Mexican black kingsnakes and leucistic Texas ratsnakes? Simple. They do not even know how to identify the most common reptiles even though they profess how important this is to them. They confused leucistic Texas rats with black rats. They thought mexican black kings were racers. Kudos to the state of Ohio for raising some revenue for itself with these tactics. Also I would like to congratulate them on the future ecological extinction of the animals that they claim to protect as they release captive bred animals to the wild that will bring the most devasting of plagues to the helpless wild populations as the viral and bacterial infections that do not occur in the state of Ohio and that the native animals have no immunities from will be set loose.

On this 4th of July let me just say this, we have no freedom. There is no reason to celebrate our independence. This nation was founded to escape repressive government that taxed it's citizens and levied fees against them for everything. We have done it again. Our government takes away our liberties and freedoms every day. We get further and further from freedom and democracy with each July 4th we celebrate. Everything is illegal. Everything is a lawsuit. How about government in this country actually doing what it was established to do? Protect our borders and our people. Stop wasting our money prosecuting people for charges that would not exist without them creating the charges in the first place. If you are a proud American, aren't you sickened by this kind of thing? I am.

 

[sschind]

What more is there to add

WELL SAID EVAN

On this 4th of July let me just say this, we have no freedom. There is no reason to celebrate our independence. This nation was founded to escape repressive government that taxed it's citizens and levied fees against them for everything. We have done it again. Our government takes away our liberties and freedoms every day. We get further and further from freedom and democracy with each July 4th we celebrate. Everything is illegal. Everything is a lawsuit. How about government in this country actually doing what it was established to do? Protect our borders and our people. Stop wasting our money prosecuting people for charges that would not exist without them creating the charges in the first place. If you are a proud American, aren't you sickened by this kind of thing? I am.

Steve Schindler

 

[herpetological]

Busts

In regards to the discussion on the impossibility of collecting 2,000 garters in 3 days.... It is possible in certain areas, during certain times of the year. During a study in Michigan back in the late 1970's I was part of a group monitoring population density and species diversity at densites of Northern Michigan. Breeding balls of up to 100 snakes per group were encountered. The snakes were so engrossed in breeding that you could walk right up to them and pick up 25-50 snakes at once. We were able to monitor several sites that were estimated at 25-30,000 specimens per site. Obviously this is only for a few short weeks and limited to some of the Northern U.S. localities. Some sites north of our study areas (Canada) were estimated at 100,000 specimens. These type of communal dens also occur in the Pacific Northwest. Also, keep in mind they are a species which is preyed upon by many other species and produces large clutches to survive. This would not be possible with other species of snakes. Yes, I have been to these sites in the last few years. The species still occurs there however, not quite as abundantly. The "kicker" is that many of the sites that do not exist were not over collected. Can you say "shopping center"!!!! "Gas station"!!!
Just a thought..... If I were heading up DNR and was made aware of the native violations, I would have approched the promoter and asked him to hand out a copy of Ohio's laws to each vendor. The laws and their enforcement would have been made clear. I would have told the vendors that if any further violations were seen at future shows the violators would be charged. This would have been more productive for both sides of the herp community.
If there were obvious violations were wildlife was know to be taken from the wild....of course prosecute them! However, for the most part it's a matter of forgetting to,"cross their t's or dot their i's"! Paperwork! Of course they need to justify this! In a few cases they are right. A FEW cases! It just would not have looked good to charge a few serious violators not impressive enough. The person who allegedly collected the spotted salamanders.... I wonder if that was a case of them actually being collected from Ohio or as in many cases they were from out of state and just happened to be native to Ohio as well?? Isn't part of law enforcement's job to educate the public on the laws, as well as enforce them? They certainly have huge campaigns to let the
public know about seatbelt laws!!!!

 

[Dragondad]

Enforcement??

After the fall out and some time has passed we are all coming up with ideas that would have been more productive than the course of events that took place.

The nature of these government agencies(not all) is to make up the enforcement of laws as they see fit. A defense lawyer I know uses the term selective enforcement. Or more simply speaking since none of us matter a bit in the major scope of upper government influence then we all take it in the teeth. Wonder what would happen if Hillary or Bill kept a black rat snake....dont go there.

As Evan has said the "land of the free" has gone the way of Dodo bird. Or maybe we could declare the free american an endagered species that way we could get protection from those who would take the rights given us in the "Bill of Rights" away.

And before anyone jumps on me for being anti anything. I still belive this to be the greatest country on earth. But lets get back to what made us great not keep moving in the direction of what democracy has stood against.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed[B/], --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Or lets just quote the preamble of the Constitution "WE THE PEOPLE of the United States"

Sadly its reactive to what happened over the past week but its time we get proactive and stand up for our rights.

 

[Dragondad]

Ouch

That will teach me not to reflect before I write, I am not advocating and overthrow of the government but simply using the tools as outlined to guarantee our rights. Let you voice be heard as I said once and will say again. Time for us as unified voice to make some noise...

 

[WebSlave]

Land of the free and home of the brave.

The former requires the latter.

In order to be free, you need to be brave enough to tell them whom would attempt to take away your freedoms, not just "NO!", but "HELL NO!".

Look around the world. Freedom is the exception, not the rule. If you give up your freedom, they will gladly take it from you. And every little encroachment will be for the "good of the majority".

 

[Dragondad]

Well said

Look around the world. Freedom is the exception, not the rule. If you give up your freedom, they will gladly take it from you. And every little encroachment will be for the "good of the majority".

I totally agree Webslave the only thing I would state different is you last phrase... it should read "good of the perceived majority".

 

[pacrat]

What do we do???

I have to admitt i do not get on these boards very offten but i have to say i have a big case of the red a$$ myself,and you all are right! Its going to get to the point we cant keep anything other then a cat or dog.What i would like to know is how in the hell are we going to fight this? I have friends that set up at the shows and they are good people as im sure you all are. What can we do and how can we stop this??? I know i work my tail off to take care of my reptiles breeding, saleing, and tradeing maybe i do bend a rule or two here and there but ive been doing this for 15 years!! Now DNR (fish&game) is going to tell me the only way i can keep herps is if i pay them!!..Excuese me sir but think i have paid you,,the food on your table, the car you drive, the neat little uniform and the rest of the cock and bull the DNR uses aginst us!
I tell ya people id sell my herps to the devil him self before i will pay to keep a herp! Right or wrong i just cant see letting them beat us, and i know there is enough fellow herpers out there to back us up! Lets beat em somehow!
Jason
(Understone's reptiles)

 

[sschind]

Its going to get to the point we cant keep anything other then a cat or dog.

well, certain types of dogs anyway.

I tell ya people id sell my herps to the devil him self before i will pay to keep a herp

Interesting perspective, I wonder how many would do the same (well maybe not the devil part) I tend to agree with you, problem is you'd have to get rid of them fast because if they ever did implement a pay permit system you'd see a ton of animals on the market. You'd also see a ton of euthenizations as people just dumped their animals wherever they could.

My problem, like any addiction, if I got rid of everything, could I stay away?

Steve Schindler

 

[pacrat]

Hey everyone..you might want to look at this link i found

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=1307

This link has diffrent state laws on it maybe worth takeing a look at. I may have a few more as the night goes on.

 

[herpetological]

OK......

I'd rather see the trade regulated by a permiting system with controls than the alternative. NO HERPS ALLOWED UNDER ANY CONDITIONS!!! I agree that the laws are unclear, in some cases unfounded and many times put foward by people who never leave an office or step foot on grass. Much less ever been to a trade show. It's always human nature to look at the negatives first. When these laws are proposed it's up to EVERYONE to get involved. If it's a law that they are determined to go through with then we should work with them to make it practical, reasonable
and CLEAR. Anytime that any herp is completely protected it does the species more damage. They talk about the commercial aspect of it!!!!!! They are creating the black market that makes a 10.00 animal a 1,000.00 animal!!! Allow limited trade in any species and that species will never be extinct! It sounds bad but that the truth of the matter! I'd rather tell them ok.... i'll pay your fee and provide documentation as long as i'm still allowed to work with those species. Don't get me wrong! I'm not on the side of most lawmakers or enforcement agencies! PIT tagging every specimen....??? Especially small species ABSURD! The idea of not allowing captive breeding if the species is native to the state... What good does this do. Where would they turn to if something disasterous did happen to the wild populations! Are there any endangered species breeding programs operated by the state or government for herps? NO! They won't admit to it but, many of these laws are NOT helping the species survival! Another thing!!!!
Ducks Unlimited is allowed to fund purchases of land for the survival of waterfowl. Government agencies work with them for species management. They determine bag limits and permit fees for KILLING of the waterfowl! Do you think that if the herpers in Ohio were to get together and buy say a thousand acres of land for management of herps that they would permit limited collecting of LIVE non-threatened or non- endangered herps?? I doubt it!! Keep in mind these are the same federal agencies that would allow me to import PARTS(Heads, tails, skins. legs, meat etc.) of Yacare , Brown Caimans or Morlet's Crocodiles but, no live ones? Yeah that helps the species survival! Before I get too far off subject.... My 2 cents! Ray

 

[Bobby Pruett]

Brett Nelson

Heres Brett Nelsons email for those who would like to have his info.


.

 

[Adamanteus]

Re: OK......

PIT tagging every specimen....??? Especially small species ABSURD!

With a 12 gauge needle at that! I can't see many 18 inch ribbon snakes or other small bodied snakes surviving this well
(my Vet. refuses to do it)

 

[Adamanteus]

Re: Hey everyone..you might want to look at this link i found

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=1307

This link has diffrent state laws on it maybe worth takeing a look at. I may have a few more as the night goes on.

I belive the regulations on this site are out of date. also on the main page it states "On the federal level, all persons breeding these animals are required to obtain a breeder's license pursuant to the federal Animal Welfare Act. Note: This summary lists all laws relating to breeding in the individual states and is a complete list of animals covered under the laws"

this is not true I have talked to APHIS USFWS and USDA and all reptiles are exempt from regulation under the Animal Welfare Act. The only federal laws that apply to herps are for those listed on the Threatened and endangered species act. http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/TESSWebpageVipListed?code=V&listings=0#C . And for interstate or international commerce and/or transport of CITES listed animals http://www.cites.org/ .