The Death Penalty

[llechler]

It's a harsh reality than some lives are indeed worth more than others.

Maybe in the eyes of the law, but not in my eyes. Every life is equal to me. Not one person's life is more valuable than the next.

LWOP is simply just not a suitable punishment for many heinous crimes. A man who kidnaps, rapes, and brutally murders an eight year old girl does not deserve to live out a natural life at taxpayer expense.

As you can assume from my previous comments, I would have to disagree with this statement. I do believe LWOP is suitable for this man and he does not deserve death.

A prisoner who is already sentenced to LWOP has nothing to fear. Should he murder a prison guard, so what? What are they going to do... give him another life sentence? That second life sentence was such a joke to him that he attempted to kill a second corrections officer.

This is a reality, but at the core of it all, I still believe we should not have the right to sentence someone else to death. Put him under better security, don't take the easy route and just kill him. It makes you no better than him.

How about the recent case here in FL, where a career criminal ordered the savage massacre of an entire household of people simply because they had his x-box? One of the victims was beaten so badly that dental records were of no use in identifying her body. After all six people were beaten to death, their bodies were mutilated after they were dead, and one of the female victims was sexually assaulted with a baseball bat.

That is very sad, and it will definitely pull at our emotions and heartstrings, but after all this man has done, does he still deserve to live? YES. He needs punishment, but that should not be in the form of death.

Let's branch off with a tangent for just a moment, with a direct question for those who argue the death penalty is morally unacceptable on the grounds that killing is wrong....If faced with an attacker who was intent on either killing or causing grievous bodily harm to you or an immediate family member, would it be morally wrong to use deadly force in defense of yourself or a loved one?

I'm assuming this is directed at me....so.....here is my opinion....
As I have been stating throughout this thread, one of my core beliefs is that you should never cause suffering. I will break this senario into two circumstances. If someone were trying to kill me, I would most definitely try to defend myself, my life is precious, and I will not just lie down and die. However, no matter how much this guy is filled with the rage or intent to kill me, doesn't mean in my defense that I must kill him. I will try to incapacitate him, knock him out or something, but never intentially try to end his life, even though he trying to end mine. There is a line I must draw. Yes, I will protect my own life, but that doesn't mean I have to end his.

Now, in the second senario, a man is trying to kill an immediate family member or a loved one. What do I do then? I follow the same path, trying to protect them and myself, but never intentially trying to kill the advancer. Why seek the killing of another life just because he seeks to kill you? Doesn't make sense to me. Incapasitate him and let the law deal with his actions. If it came right down to it, however, I would most definitely sacrafice my life for a loved one or family member, as I believe sacraficing ones life for another's is one of the most honorable ways to die.

 

[CAV]

Linda I respect your conviction, although I disagree.

I will try to incapacitate him, knock him out or something, but never intentially try to end his life, even though he trying to end mine.

Are you aware that in some states this could make you the criminal? FWIW, there have been many victims that ultimately had their lives ended by an "incapacitated" agressor. Just food for thought.

 

[llechler]

Gary, What does FWIW mean? Can you elaborate on this: there have been many victims that ultimately had their lives ended by an "incapacitated" agressor.

But.....if I killed him, I would FRY if most of you had your way, right?

 

[CAV]

FWIW = for what its worth

Merely wounding an attacker is a quick ticket to getting yourself killed. A wounded attacker is much more likely to escalate the lethality of his attack as opposed to ending it. If you plan on defending yourself, you have to accept the fact that you're gonna be forced to neutralize the threat, not merely incapacitate it.

But.....if I killed him, I would FRY if most of you had your way, right?

Of course not. Self-defense is an acceptable action in the eyes of the law. Premeditated murder is something completely different.

 

[llechler]

So you are saying that if someone is trying to hurt and/or kill you the only reasonable way to get out of being harmed is to kill the other person?

And also, you say in the name of self defense it is okay to kill someone, yet to incapasitate someone and tie them up for the cops and the law to deal with could get you in trouble? Why in the name of self defense is it okay to kill someone but not okay to hand them over to the law?

 

[bcfos]

Ken great point you brought up. Personally I would have no problem dropping the person if they were about to cause me or someone close to me harm. Now if they did that to a couple of my ex's I might just slip them some money for a defence fund.

 

[Lucille]

If you are SURE that person cannot harm you, you may leave him for the cops- however if he was coming after you to use deadly force, I would not get too comfie there. Plus, in Texas at least, if you wound or hurt someone you are expected, after you reach safety, to call for medical attention which you do not have to worry about if he is already dead.
I believe in Texas you may use deadly force for immediate self defense of life or serious injury both of self and family; and even after you have emptied your gun stop, reload, and pump a second round out. You do not have to call an ambulance I would not think if all the remains would fit into a baggie.

 

[llechler]

wow. how to respond to that statement, lucille. I don't know. That's an interesting statement about laws in Texas, but the way you make it sound, maybe I'm taking it wrong, but it sounds like you'd rather kill the person so you wouldn't have to take the trouble to call an ambulance? It blows my mind.

 

[sirenofthestorm]

lucille, good to know, since one of the two out of 7 siblings I actually like lives in houston. But he's definitely not the gun toting type. I'm pretty sure his massive size keeps most people at bay, lol.

But on a more serious note, I'm glad we're no longer using the "only one or two slip through the cracks" excuse anymore. That really blew my mind that THIRTEEN men in one state alone were innocent on death row. And Illinois isn't even known for putting large numbers of convicts on death row or throwing the switch quickly (to my knowledge).

Ok that being said, I love you all, can't we play nice now and agree to disagree? Or naughty, since this is a Lonely Hearts club and apparently we're all sexually oriented .

-Whit

 

[Lucille]

What I am saying Linda is that if someone comes after my children with intent to murder, there will be very little left of them.
Those who know me, know I am generally a shy, gentle, helpful person. But I deserve to live and my kids do too. Back when I was young I took a self defense course that taught karate- my instructor as well as teaching the physical part taught concepts also. He said to walk away from every fight you could; but when it was time to fight, never hold back and fight to kill. I think he was wise and I took his words to heart.
Whit, tell more about your sibling lol.

 

[Ken Harbart]

In a self-defense shooting, one does not shoot to kill or shoot to injure; one shoots to stop the threat. It just happens that stopping the threat and killing the attacker aren't normally mutually exclusive events.

It would be nice if lif were like the movies, and you could stop an aggressor with a shot to the leg. However, reality dictates that aim should be taken on the largest available target, aka center of mass (COM). A COM shot or two with a decent defensive round such as jacketed hollowpoint or expanding full metal jacket will take the fight out of most attackers. It will also do significant damage to their cardiac & respiratory systems, often killing them. In instances where COM shots don't stop the aggressor (such as with a meth monkey who's been up for three days), the next logical target becomes their head, as only a CNS shutdown will stop the threat.

Lucille, TX law dictates that the finger comes off the trigger once the threat is neutralized. However, I would not advise providing first aid to the person I just shot. Doing so would be a foolhardy move that greatly compromises your safety. Your first call should be 911 anyways, regardless of the outcome. They can deal with rendering aid to the attacker if any is still required.

Back to the topic of the death penalty, I am a staunch advocate of the punishment fitting the crime. I do not feel that a lifetime of three meals a day, a climate-controlled environment, free health & dental care, basic (at a minimum) cable, and madatory time alloted for physical activities is a suitable punishment for a crime such as the rape and murder of a little girl. The only punishment fitting someone that commits such a heinous crime is the loss of their own life.

Likewise, I don't feel that someone should be sentenced to death merely on circumstantial evidence or the testimony of a single witness. The legal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" is important in any criminal proceeding, but moreso in cases involving the death penalty.

 

[sirenofthestorm]

Lucille, what what do you want to know? He's my baby brother, so I'm very protective and proud LOL. He is just starting college double majoring in pre-med and something else, engineering I think. I told him he's crazy, but he too has to learn by screwing up.

And yeah, he's physically imposing. 6'3" at age 18... and the little <font color=red>[**censored**]</font> still has 3 more years to grow. I can't beat up on my little brother anymore. Our dad played football for A&M for one year back in the late 70s before screwing up his leg, amd Dave is really just an overgrown version of him. Or a HAIRY male version of me. Hehe his hair is already migrating south, just like Dad's did.

Oh and he plays bass in a band, and is an RN, he graduated from that magnet high school in houston for the health professions. And believe you me, I heard about all the crap he had to do and how hard this class and that class were. LOL he and I are scarily similar.

 

[Lucille]

Whit, I think your bro is an awesome kid. A double major is a lot of work, but he sounds like he is a real go getter.
Ken: You are awesome yourself, with the grasp of the particulars of law. Hopefully, it will never come to that in my life; however I hear from cops and judges here that often, women in particular, empty their weapon before THEY feel the threat is gone, even though with hollowpoints the job is many times done after the first shot.

 

[CAV]

Our dad played football for A&M for one year back in the late 70s before screwing up his leg[/B]

Now I'm interested! I'm an A&M 92 grad. WHOOP!!!


Ken,

2 COM +1 up top, train like you fight.


Lucille,

If you've never taken the TX CHL class, it is fantastic. Even if you don't ever plan on carrying a weapon, the sections on TX law and the legal facts of the deadly force provisions make the class worth taking.

 

[Ken Harbart]

Exactly Gary. When the **** hits the fan, no one rises to the occasion; they default to their level of training.

 

[Lucille]

Gary: The cop I go out with is telling me the same thing, that I should take the course. Plus, I DO need to know every detail of the criminal law on deadly force by November for my criminal law exam.

 

[sirenofthestorm]

well gary, I applied to UT and A&M but ended up going to UT, talk about family loyalty LOL. And I left it after 1 year, so obviously UT isn't to poo, either, at least imo. However, I left because I didn't like the other students mostly, I DID get a great education.


-Whit

 

[CAV]

Whitney,

I now live in Austin now and I often feel like the only well guy in a leper colony.

You must like the weather cuz Mich. is a long way from Texas!

 

[sirenofthestorm]

I meant THE poo not to poo... lol sheesh... time for another english class.



Gary, I consider myself a michigander I was born in Tarrant Co. but I have more or less lived in MI since I was 3 or 4. I did learn to talk in tx, so the drawl comes back if I'm around it enough down there. And my father's family is down there, so I visited from time to time. One of the reasons I went to UT was because I didn't think UofM was far enough away from home for my liking, but I've realized my mistake. 3 hours notice of mom's arrival is plenty, just enough to clean up the place of guys and bottles LOL just kidding.

-Whit

 

[shrap]

I do not agree with the death penalty. It is hypocritical. It is against the law to kill someone unless it is in self defense.....unless you are the government. Does not make sense. Personally, I think the death penalty is letting people off easy. I know I would rather die right away than rot in prison for 40 or 50 years until I die.

On the other hand, I would have no problem what so ever unloading my 45 into someone if I felt the person was a honest threat to my family or myself.