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The Death Penalty
- Thread starter Lucille
- Start date
shrap
Freelance Philosopher
CAV said:
Technically, the threat to society ended the day the person was incarcerated for their crimes. Killing someone who is imprisoned on death row can no longer be considered self defense. It is murder.
Capitol punishment is nothing more than legalized murder. It is certainly not a deterrent to violent crime.... based on what we see happening in our country on a daily basis.
I disagree and so do the violent crime statistics. As of last week, crime rates for violent climes at at a thirty year low. Is it just a coincidence that the death penalty was reinstated at the begining of that time period?
Murder and the legal execution of a judical mandate in response to the committement of a violent crime are not the same things and can't be compared.
sirenofthestorm
ineffable
I don't know why you're comparing crime stats between now and when the death penalty was reinstated.... what about per capita crime stat comparisons between the time the death penalty was banned to the time it was reinstated?
shrap
Freelance Philosopher
In order.
1) People committing a crime heinous enough to be considered for the death penalty would NEVER be paroled if there was not a death penalty. It would be life in prison without the chance for parole. Manson and his crew ring a bell?? Richard Speck?? Your argument is completely irrelevant to the death penalty because those types of criminals would never see the light of day outside a prison for the rest of their lives.
2) No longer considered a threat to SOCIETY. The key word here is SOCIETY. If you CHOOSE to work as a correctional officer that is the risk you take. And you are well aware of that risk before you ever CHOOSE to take the job. And it does not take a criminal worthy of the death penalty (or life without parole) to kill a correctional officer. Every prisoner in a prison is capable of that, regardless of the crime they committed that got them there. Again, that argument is completely irrelevant to the death penalty.
3) Crime stats. That has already been partially answered...Thanks siren. The other part of that is that if you believe any stat coming from the government, particularly in an election year, I got some really awesome half gecko half snake hybrids for sale that I made in my breeder projects this hear I will sell to you.
4) Murder is murder no matter what color you paint it. The only justifiable murder is self defense or in defending the lives of your loved ones or other innocent people.
1) People committing a crime heinous enough to be considered for the death penalty would NEVER be paroled if there was not a death penalty. It would be life in prison without the chance for parole. Manson and his crew ring a bell?? Richard Speck?? Your argument is completely irrelevant to the death penalty because those types of criminals would never see the light of day outside a prison for the rest of their lives.
2) No longer considered a threat to SOCIETY. The key word here is SOCIETY. If you CHOOSE to work as a correctional officer that is the risk you take. And you are well aware of that risk before you ever CHOOSE to take the job. And it does not take a criminal worthy of the death penalty (or life without parole) to kill a correctional officer. Every prisoner in a prison is capable of that, regardless of the crime they committed that got them there. Again, that argument is completely irrelevant to the death penalty.
3) Crime stats. That has already been partially answered...Thanks siren. The other part of that is that if you believe any stat coming from the government, particularly in an election year, I got some really awesome half gecko half snake hybrids for sale that I made in my breeder projects this hear I will sell to you.
4) Murder is murder no matter what color you paint it. The only justifiable murder is self defense or in defending the lives of your loved ones or other innocent people.
That is my point exactly.
The death penalty was stuck down, reviewed and then reinstated all within the last thirty-one years. Therefore that particular statistics does in fact cover ALL crime, including the hiatus period of 1973-76.
Sorry to rain on your parade, Sammy but I just invalidated argument #3. Besides it isn't election year information, it is a matter of public record and is confirmed by multiple sources, including anti-DP groups.
Oh yeah, point #1 is also false. It is possible to commute a life sentence. It happens rather frequently. We can all thank prison overcrowding for that little loophole.
sirenofthestorm said:
The death penalty was stuck down, reviewed and then reinstated all within the last thirty-one years. Therefore that particular statistics does in fact cover ALL crime, including the hiatus period of 1973-76.
shrap said:
Sorry to rain on your parade, Sammy but I just invalidated argument #3. Besides it isn't election year information, it is a matter of public record and is confirmed by multiple sources, including anti-DP groups.
Oh yeah, point #1 is also false. It is possible to commute a life sentence. It happens rather frequently. We can all thank prison overcrowding for that little loophole.
shrap
Freelance Philosopher
I can not say I have actually ever read any reports or seen stats from any anti-DP groups...so I will have to take your word for them. But trust me.....the volume of violent crime in America is still staggering. If the the DP is supposed to be a deterrent, it is not a very good one.
Dude get real. Nobody commiting a crime that would warrant the DP would ever get commuted. Richard Speck killed 7 nurses in Chicago in the late 60's when there was not a DP. He died in prison. Same with Manson and his followers, they are all going to die in prison. To say we need the DP just in case someone commutes a mass murderer from his life sentence is just plain being ornery. Someone can just as easliy commute a death sentence. If you are going to try and make a valid point, by all means do so. But stop with the dumb sh!#.
Look Gary, I can honestly understand SOME peoples point of view on why they think we need a death penalty. I just don't agree.
Sometimes in life we just have to agree to disagree.
sirenofthestorm
ineffable
ok guys... we've already hashed out these points in the previous 13 pages. No one is going to change anyone's mind yet, all we can do is try to educate each other as to why we believe the things we do, and that's not what I'm seeing right now. Things are getting not so friendly in this thread, so can't we all be nice? please?
please?
TooManyBurmese
Member
Something that disturbs me on the shows I watch (named on page 1 or 2) is that people imprisoned for voluntary manslaughter or lesser degree murder and other manslaughter charges are often only given a decade or so in prison. Sometimes these people only avoid a 1st degree charge due to a technicality.
Not all but some leave prison only to kill again. It is amazing and freakin scary how many people are caught due to their past records!
As I said I believe in my country's judicial system. I am not blind to the mistakes made by both defense and prosecution...
Not all but some leave prison only to kill again. It is amazing and freakin scary how many people are caught due to their past records!
As I said I believe in my country's judicial system. I am not blind to the mistakes made by both defense and prosecution...
ZenReptiles
Kawaii lil' critters!
I don't like how the prison system works, but I also don't think murder should be any type of option. People are capable of change, I'm not saying ALL people are, all I'm saying is who are we to say when a person should die? It is true that a majority of convicts will never be able to live in society again, but what about the one person that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time? I think it is also a far worse punishment to take away someone's freedom and make them relive their actions in their mind over and over again for the rest of their lives.
coyote
New member
ZenReptiles said:
There are many who exact a great deal of pleasure and enjoyment in reliving the details of the crimes committed over and over again.
ZenReptiles said:
We are mothers, friends, spouses, family.
This penalty is not given lightly, but when there is someone who for example kills again and again, or someone who brutally murders another person at gunpoint after making them beg for their life, or who rapes and then kills a little innocent child, I feel perfectly justified in exacting this level of punishment.
If they have said when someone else is to die by coldly murdering their victims, I have no problem telling them that our system of justice can say their days too are over. In fact, if I caught them in the act with my family they would sure never get as far as the courthouse.
My friend's father is a defense attorney. He has tried several Capital Punisment cases and gave a lecture at my school regarding the issue. It was pretty interesting.
He said something to the effect of:
"Money, race, and social standing are the most important factors in a death penalty case. If you were ever a defendant in a DP case, the minimum i would recommend spending in your defense is 100K."
Some food for thought:
A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000).
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)
The estimated costs for the death penalty in New York since 1995 (when it was reinstated): $160 million, or approximately $23 million for each person sentenced to death. To date, no executions have been carried out.
(The Times Union, Sept. 22, 2003)
In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)
The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.
Trials in which the prosecutor is seeking a death sentence have two separate and distinct phases: conviction (guilt/innocence) and sentencing. Special motions and extra time for jury selection typically precede such trials.
More investigative costs are generally incurred in capital cases, particularly by the prosecution.
When death penalty trials result in a verdict less than death or are reversed, taxpayers first incur all the extra costs of capital pretrial and trial proceedings and must then also pay either for the cost of incarcerating the prisoner for life or the costs of a retrial (which often leads to a life sentence).
The death penalty diverts resources from genuine crime control measures. Spending money on the death penalty system means
Reducing the resources available for crime prevention, mental health treatment, education and rehabilitation, meaningful victims’ services, and drug treatment programs.
Taking it away from existing components of the criminal justice system, such as prosecutions of drug crimes, domestic violence, and child abuse.
"Elimination of the death penalty would result in a net savings to the state of at least several tens of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of millions of dollars on a statewide basis."
-- Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California Legislature, Sept. 9, 1999
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/index.html
He said something to the effect of:
"Money, race, and social standing are the most important factors in a death penalty case. If you were ever a defendant in a DP case, the minimum i would recommend spending in your defense is 100K."
Some food for thought:
A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000).
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)
The estimated costs for the death penalty in New York since 1995 (when it was reinstated): $160 million, or approximately $23 million for each person sentenced to death. To date, no executions have been carried out.
(The Times Union, Sept. 22, 2003)
In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)
The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.
Trials in which the prosecutor is seeking a death sentence have two separate and distinct phases: conviction (guilt/innocence) and sentencing. Special motions and extra time for jury selection typically precede such trials.
More investigative costs are generally incurred in capital cases, particularly by the prosecution.
When death penalty trials result in a verdict less than death or are reversed, taxpayers first incur all the extra costs of capital pretrial and trial proceedings and must then also pay either for the cost of incarcerating the prisoner for life or the costs of a retrial (which often leads to a life sentence).
The death penalty diverts resources from genuine crime control measures. Spending money on the death penalty system means
Reducing the resources available for crime prevention, mental health treatment, education and rehabilitation, meaningful victims’ services, and drug treatment programs.
Taking it away from existing components of the criminal justice system, such as prosecutions of drug crimes, domestic violence, and child abuse.
"Elimination of the death penalty would result in a net savings to the state of at least several tens of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of millions of dollars on a statewide basis."
-- Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California Legislature, Sept. 9, 1999
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/index.html
Griz
Driving the short bus....
Your facts are flawed but never the less, it still stands to reason that we need death penalty reform.
Once the appeal is done, assuming the individual is found guilty, he is immediately taken out back and put down with a .22 to the back of the head. The cost of the bullet is then charged back against his/her estate along with the cost associated with the trial.
Griz
Once the appeal is done, assuming the individual is found guilty, he is immediately taken out back and put down with a .22 to the back of the head. The cost of the bullet is then charged back against his/her estate along with the cost associated with the trial.
Griz
ZX11
New member
I know some folks in prison. Two for murder, one vehicular homicide. My youngest brother was killed in '86 by a drunk driver, this guys second killl in a year.
Death penalty cases should be resolved the original way. By the hands of the victims' families.
One of the guys up for murder, I went to school with. All throughout school, he was looking for fights and doing mean things to people, myself included. I was scared of the guy because of his ways. It came as no surprise to learn that he and another guy-- a very good friend of mine in school-- stole a boat, went to an elderly mans' house, robbed him, and then, for fun, killed the poor guy. No death penalty here. Victims and killers are all black.
The other guy that murdered was a white guy that left his live-in girlfriend at home, went across the street and drug a woman outside and raped her in front of her daughter, multiple stab wounds and slashed the throat. He cleaned up in her house and went home, told his girlfriend, and had sex with her. The little girl called 911 and identified the killer. The cops went across the street to arrest the guy, but his girlfrined held them at bay while the guy ran out the backdoor. They caught him shortly afterward. He got death, the girlfriend got off and is living in Alaska. This is my stepmother's sister.
Make no mistake, financial wealth and race do play a part in whether or not someone is put to death. I am sick of it.
Whether the perp is black or white or yellow or red makes no difference. The victims are all dead. Race or money is not an issue for them, why should it matter about the killer?
Before exploring whether the death penalty is just or moral, we also have to look at the court system. The average wait time for a criminal trial varies, but for major cases, a perp may sit 3-5 years before his case ever comes up.That is a major chunk of cash. You and I pay for that. There needs to be a faster way of dealing with this. Civil cases are tried in front of the same judges as criminal cases. If there were seperate courts for these, the process would much quicker. But, then you have the crappy attorneys that will drag things out as long as possible. Reason: If it is futher in the past, the sentence won't be as bad. Wrong. I think that criminal cases should be tried, one shot, within six months of capture/or commit date. Within six months of that, automatic appeals, where it applies. There should be no appeals for those that plea out/guilty.Upon completion of the appeal, sentence is carried out that day. One year, all is done, money is saved.
Ok, so some folks say what about "new evidence" after the appeal? Sucks for them. You had a year. Drag your feet, lose your case. PERIOD.
I am in favor of the death penalty. I am not in favor of all the B.S. that goes with it.
If our Supreme Court Justices would work everyday they are paid for, this would speed up the process greatly. Instead, they sit at their desks jerking off, wasting our money. There is absolutely no excuse for an appeal to sit in front of them for years, decades, and they RARELY work, but the paycheck is steady.
Death penalty cases should be resolved the original way. By the hands of the victims' families.
One of the guys up for murder, I went to school with. All throughout school, he was looking for fights and doing mean things to people, myself included. I was scared of the guy because of his ways. It came as no surprise to learn that he and another guy-- a very good friend of mine in school-- stole a boat, went to an elderly mans' house, robbed him, and then, for fun, killed the poor guy. No death penalty here. Victims and killers are all black.
The other guy that murdered was a white guy that left his live-in girlfriend at home, went across the street and drug a woman outside and raped her in front of her daughter, multiple stab wounds and slashed the throat. He cleaned up in her house and went home, told his girlfriend, and had sex with her. The little girl called 911 and identified the killer. The cops went across the street to arrest the guy, but his girlfrined held them at bay while the guy ran out the backdoor. They caught him shortly afterward. He got death, the girlfriend got off and is living in Alaska. This is my stepmother's sister.
Make no mistake, financial wealth and race do play a part in whether or not someone is put to death. I am sick of it.
Whether the perp is black or white or yellow or red makes no difference. The victims are all dead. Race or money is not an issue for them, why should it matter about the killer?
Before exploring whether the death penalty is just or moral, we also have to look at the court system. The average wait time for a criminal trial varies, but for major cases, a perp may sit 3-5 years before his case ever comes up.That is a major chunk of cash. You and I pay for that. There needs to be a faster way of dealing with this. Civil cases are tried in front of the same judges as criminal cases. If there were seperate courts for these, the process would much quicker. But, then you have the crappy attorneys that will drag things out as long as possible. Reason: If it is futher in the past, the sentence won't be as bad. Wrong. I think that criminal cases should be tried, one shot, within six months of capture/or commit date. Within six months of that, automatic appeals, where it applies. There should be no appeals for those that plea out/guilty.Upon completion of the appeal, sentence is carried out that day. One year, all is done, money is saved.
Ok, so some folks say what about "new evidence" after the appeal? Sucks for them. You had a year. Drag your feet, lose your case. PERIOD.
I am in favor of the death penalty. I am not in favor of all the B.S. that goes with it.
If our Supreme Court Justices would work everyday they are paid for, this would speed up the process greatly. Instead, they sit at their desks jerking off, wasting our money. There is absolutely no excuse for an appeal to sit in front of them for years, decades, and they RARELY work, but the paycheck is steady.