Bad Guy The Jungle Florida

[Andy_G]

Although I feel bad for you what has happened, looking at this completely objectively, there are too many mistakes on your part and too many unknowns for anyone to really side with you here as far as a seller/customer standpoint is concerned. This is what people have to go off of to form their opinion of what happened;

- No quarantine, so a stressed new acquisition could possibly have perished from something that already exists in your collection that established animals aren't susceptible to...

-"if you don't replace the animal and pay for shipping, I will speak out about your policies" kind of message to the seller, which SCREAMS scam/blackmail to some.

-They guarantee live arrival, your chameleon arrived alive albeit seemingly ill, yet they still offered to replace it if you pay shipping without any proof of wrongdoing on their part VERY REASONABLE OFFER

-No vet report, no necropsy, no proof of death, no exact cause of death...how do you know whether or not it's possible for whatever this animal theoretically had could wipe out all the animals you keep?

And now you've come to the conclusion of avoiding everyone on this site because they stick together? That's not accurate. I really do wish you the best of luck in the future, and I hope you are new to the hobby because you have a lot to learn about husbandry as well as handling transactions properly. This thread is not titled correctly.

 

[JCCS]

I can see how unified this sellers are in here. Good to know now. Not purchase any from here. I never had any issues from other reptile forumz than this one.

This is probably for the best. Alvin, I'm not defending Jay because I have a dislike for large wholesale/retail operations and the quality of their animals. That being said, you have lied multiple times on here, whined about conditions you've agreed to, whined when guy went above and beyond because you might have to pay just a bit more to be made more than right, and worst of all, sat on your hands and watched an animal die in your "care". Jay might look sorta bad in this, but you look horrendous. And also, as a tip from a mental health professional, when everyone is telling you the same thing, it might just be true. Instead of thinking of it as "ganging up", think of it as a bunch of people giving you their opinion individually. I don't know anyone on here from Adam and don't particularly care to. Sometimes they're a bit overzealous and Lucille tends to jump to conclusions far too fast for my liking, but they tend to get the job done. To think that you're gonna come here and drop some crap like you did and walk away with everyone either patting you on the back or just nodding their heads, you haven't been around many critical groups before.

Just some thoughts.

 

[imadison2000]

It bums me out seeing bad guy threads on the BOI that end up being the buyers mistake. I feel like admins should be able to change the status from bad guy if these sort of things happen, you know? Just a lurkers thoughts...

 

[Snake-Queen]

I can see how unified this sellers are in here. Good to know now. Not purchase any from here. I never had any issues from other reptile forumz than this one.

This forum has nothing to do with our opinions, which happen to be the same because we see the situation objectively, not because we are backing the seller.

To have the seller responsible for sending a sick animal, a veterinarian diagnosis would be the proof we need to back the buyer. We don't know you, your word is not enough. While that may be frustrating for you, it is how it works here.

The Jungle was willing to work with you, but demanding they pay the shipping as well on another animal, was the wrong move. They didn't even require you take the "sick" one to the vet or ship it back. They took you at your word that it was sick and dying.

That being said, you have lied multiple times on here, whined about conditions you've agreed to, whined when guy went above and beyond because you might have to pay just a bit more to be made more than right, and worst of all, sat on your hands and watched an animal die in your "care".

Jay might look sorta bad in this, but you look horrendous. And also, as a tip from a mental health professional, when everyone is telling you the same thing, it might just be true. Instead of thinking of it as "ganging up", think of it as a bunch of people giving you their opinion individually.

Please re-read the quoted reply, paying particular attention to the bolded words.

________
I will reiterate ... if you don't have funds to take a sick animal to the vet, you have no business buying additional animals.

Sellers do research buyers as well. Most will not sell an animal to a buyer who will watch an their animal suffer and die if something were to happen. I know I will not.

 

[caffeinecynic]

I want to address the complaint about the Jungle supposedly not breeding, from the OP.

They are a pet store. They have never made any secret of that.

We carry a wide variety of Exotic Reptiles and Mammals in our storefront in Deerfield Beach, FL.

Stated right in the middle of their About section on Facebook.

Most pet stores do not breed their entire stock, especially one that advertises in such a wide variety of exotics as they do. I knew when I bought my Stimson's from them that they had not bred her, they even stated, "We can let you know when we get more in," when I originally inquired about males. .

If you want the guarantees that come with breeder-direct, it is probably a good idea not to buy from a pet store. But I think you're giving The Jungle the raw end of the deal here. I don't know much about chameleons, but I feel that expecting them to pay for the replacement to ship - when they were allowing you to keep the original animal - is a tall order.

 

[LJReptiles]

Cant defend them sending a sick animal, or you having to pay the shipping on a second animal.
I do agree you should have taking the animal to a vet soon as you thought something was wrong, no matter what the animals well being should have been first not a refund or new animal.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Cant defend them sending a sick animal, or you having to pay the shipping on a second animal.
I do agree you should have taking the animal to a vet soon as you thought something was wrong, no matter what the animals well being should have been first not a refund or new animal.

There is no actual proof that the cham was sick. The loose stool could've been from stress due to shipping. It may or may not have been dehydrated. It could've been injured during shipping. It may have had an underlying issue that didn't present itself till after the stress of shipping. We will never know as the OP callously watched the animal die.

Without a vet report, we cannot say that the seller sold a sick animal. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the seller sent a sick animal, just that there is no evidence either way.

The TOS was fulfilled. If the OP didn't like the terms, he could've bought a cham elsewhere.

 

[Boa_Morphs82]

What concerns me most is the OP lack of caring for the animal and not taking it to the vet knowing there was an issue. If he were in my jurisdiction the OP would be facing animal cruelty charges for failure to provide sustenance being medical care. Further the OP poor husbandry, from the picture I can see the animal has access to soil with perlite. Anyone who owns chameleons knows soil is to be covered with rocks too large for ingestion as chameleons will often consume the soil while catching the prey, further chameleons are noted for trying to eat the perlite, which is a huge impaction concern. Further concerning is the lack of quarantine. There are of course exceptions to the rules on soil exposure, such as egg laying bins and certain species of chameleons requiring it, but it certainly shouldn't be soil with perlite.

Looking at the picture of the actual animal it looks as if she is displaying gravid colors in the picture of her on the ground. Its entirely possible she was egg bound. The loose stool isn't too concerning to me as she was just shipped and was stressed so it could be a result of that.

OP I have been breeding and raising chameleons for the past 25 years including Parsons Chameleons, please educate yourself better on chameleon husbandry, illnesses, quarantine and complications and seek veterinary care when it is needed, not having the funds is no excuse as you took on the responsibility of furnishing this animal appropriate care which includes veterinary care.

 

[AllisonLeigh]

Something wasn't sitting right with me on that pic of the terrarium, I looked closer and (imo) it looks like either the Op put the two chams in the enclosure together, or put the sick cham into the enclosure that the other cham was previously living in. Notice the tilandsia and the shape of the branch close to the ground in the close up of the sick cham and compare that to the full shot of the enclosure, where it would appear the Op's other Cham is sitting on that side of the enclosure, on the vine. I don't want to nit pick, as the Op has already admitted inadequate quarantine, but I wonder if the stronger/larger Cham was picking on the newbie since the newbie was invading it's territory.

Another thought, I notice the Op was responding to a lot of ads looking for a 1 year old cham and I notice what appears to be a lay box in the enclosure. Alvin, did you try to mate them?

 

[Boa_Morphs82]

Something wasn't sitting right with me on that pic of the terrarium, I looked closer and (imo) it looks like either the Op put the two chams in the enclosure together, or put the sick cham into the enclosure that the other cham was previously living in. Notice the tilandsia and the shape of the branch close to the ground in the close up of the sick cham and compare that to the full shot of the enclosure, where it would appear the Op's other Cham is sitting on that side of the enclosure, on the vine. I don't want to nit pick, as the Op has already admitted inadequate quarantine, but I wonder if the stronger/larger Cham was picking on the newbie since the newbie was invading it's territory.

Another thought, I notice the Op was responding to a lot of ads looking for a 1 year old cham and I notice what appears to be a lay box in the enclosure. Alvin, did you try to mate them?

Good catch, that is definitely the same enclosure that the male is pictured in as well as the female. I can not say they were in the same enclosure at the same time, but if they were the colors the female is displaying while on the ground are non-receptive/already gravid colors which means she would not tolerate the male and if he in turn became aggressive towards the female it is entirely possible he injured the female thus resulting in the weakened grip, falling and decline of the female.

 

[DavidBeard]

Yet another case where the OP shows with bright lights what an incompetent person they are, the exact opposite of what they intended. I hope nobody sells you ANY animals from here out Mr Cruz.....you don't deserve them based on your lies and husbandry negligence.

 

[MissFirefly]

Appears the true "bad guy" has come to the surface here. Denying any animal vet care is cruelty. Do not buy an animal if you do not have the funds for a vet if needed.

Additionally, it appears that you wanted, and maybe even attempted, to breed your chameleons. What was your plan if the chameleon became egg bound which from what I understand is fairly common for these animals?

The Jungle never said they bred this chameleon, they were upfront about the fact that there was no health guarantee, and despite this tried to propose a fair solution. Not overly a fan of wholesalers/retail outfits but they were not the bad guys here.

 

[Carlton]

There is no actual proof that the cham was sick. The loose stool could've been from stress due to shipping. It may or may not have been dehydrated. It could've been injured during shipping. It may have had an underlying issue that didn't present itself till after the stress of shipping. We will never know as the OP callously watched the animal die.

Without a vet report, we cannot say that the seller sold a sick animal. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the seller sent a sick animal, just that there is no evidence either way.

The TOS was fulfilled. If the OP didn't like the terms, he could've bought a cham elsewhere.

After reading all this I went back to look at the OP's first photo of the female and the stool. I see a pretty normal looking cham with full eye turrets, decent body condition, good grip, and alert behavior. The loose stool looks like the result of shipping stress or even a longer than normal drinking session while recovering from the trip. It could have been evidence of a parasite problem too, as stress can give them the upper hand in a hurry. Of course there could have been something underlying but we'll never know. The shop admitted they hadn't had this female long....possibly such a short time that even they wouldn't catch a subtle health problem. They are not expert breeders.

Sadly, my conclusion of this whole sad event is a novice buyer who expected a cham to arrive and be ready to breed, and it didn't happen. The female wasn't permitted to acclimatize, was introduced to the male, and it was all too much. She went downhill and the OP sat and watched, unwilling to spend a dime more on her. If this had been my purchase I would have been on the phone to the vet and then to the seller, telling them what was going on. That cham would have been to a vet regardless who was going to pay a bill for it. So sad she is gone and had to suffer.

 

[tlmoon]

OP, you lost me at "no, I didn't take it to the vet, I didn't want to spend the money". If you aren't going to provide care to a sick animal, then don't have pets.

I'm not sure if the cham was sick or not, but it's possible for a healthy looking animal to decline after the stress of shipping. That's why many (most?) sellers offer a LAG only. These aren't books from amazon, they're living animals. There is a certain degree of risk. The seller offered you a very generous replacement (by industry standards) which you chose to decline.

I think there are some credibility issues here - you implied a vet had seen the animal then when directly asked you admitted that you had not taken it to a vet. I also think you would have taken pics of the box if you thought the shipping wasn't correct. I think you knew full well you were making a bad guy thread - I mean come on. I hope you will honestly answer the question that has been raised about putting the new cham in with your male.

And we aren't all sellers here - I am not. I also have no experience with the Jungle and if I thought they had done wrong I would say so. The questions that are being asked of you are fair, and to imply that everyone on the BOI is conspiring to shield a seller is ridiculous. Go read some other threads. Does it look like everyone here agrees on things?

 

[Mister Internet]

I am digging this new post-mortem methodology though... we should implement it for county coroners! Just think of the time and resource savings... detectives and hospitals could just... send them pictures of dead people, and they could simply take a look and reply with cause of death lol.

Or... that's INSANE, and this buyer should be ashamed of himself for waiting until his animal died to involve a vet.

Alvin, it sounds like you are the latest in a very long string of people who have learned enough about reptiles to be dangerous, and in doing so, have fancied yourself qualified to breed a species that is clearly out of your league at the current time. Let me guess what your business plan was:

1. Buy male and female chameleons
2. Put male and female together
3. Lay box or something
4. Try to remember to feed them
5. Babies
6. Profitz

Am I close? You have no business breeding a species you can't even keep properly. You made a purchase from a seller that offered only a Live Arrival Guarantee (LAG), and then complained about their guarantee even after it arrived alive. You were more worried about getting details of their Terms after the fact than you were about possibly trying to nurse the chameleon back to health, either through a vet visit or advice on forums. There isn't a single post here on Fauna, or on any of the large chameleon forums asking for advice on how to help them survive... you simply saw your 'investment' not panning out and started to bully the seller way past their Terms and WAY past what they reasonably owed you.

If you don't have the money to provide for care, including surprise vet visits, don't get the animal. Also, if you want an animal where you can just put males and females together with little knowledge, or time, and have babies to sell, my I recommend cockroaches.