The People's Choice

[hhmoore]

Seeing as there was no vetting process for the selection of the Keystone Cops, is anyone surprised that enforcement has not only been spotty, and at times willy-nilly, but that in the end its application was guaranteed to be fraught with silliness ! Not that all who have wielded it have been careless, but it only takes a few loose cannons to start the border wars. Is the new system working ? If I knew what it was supposed to accomplish, I might be able to render an informed opinion ! But being as I could not rationalize the means it was empowered with, I can't begin to assume what its goals were. With that as a guide, its possible it has been enormously successful

If there is a complaint worth talking about here, then me thinks its with the person who decided to ding Ben. That's my $.02 worth ... better yet, to put it in its proper perspective, if Ben ever accumulates enough to pay a fine, then that ding will have cost him about $.07. Hell, I'll PayPal in a quarter to the "Ben Fund" if a few folks will just take a step back and try to imagine even just a few ways that their time could be better spent. Heck, drinking a cold beer is time better spent.

I have been tempted to chime in on this thread a couple of times, but I think this is my cue to do so. First of all, I think referring to us as "Keystone Cops" (and some of the other nicknames I have seen tossed about) is uncalled for. Maybe you didn't approve of the guidelines that Rich chose to narrow the field, maybe the fact that somebody could (if they chose to do so) "buy in" to this group diminishes it in your eyes, maybe the fact that some of the people currently involved didn't HAVE to pay just rubs you raw, and maybe you think that some of us SHOULD NOT have the capability to issue warnings. Deal with it. There was no way Rich could have made people happy, so he picked a way that made some sense to him. Keep in mind - when he has asked for input, he gets crap. If he doesn't agree with a particular piece of input, he gets crap. If he doesn't follow the input...you get the picture. How many times have people advised him to just make the decisions that will work for him, and not ask for input from the membership? Well that is what he did. Many people foresaw problems, and some of them were not disappointed. This is still evolving, and people are trying to get a feel for things.

One thing that should be made clear is that the members of this group are, first and foremost, Fauna members. We are (sort of like) moderators, in the sense that we have the ability to help enforce SOME of the rules. It has been said of the site moderators that they can post & be involved in threads AS THEMSELVES (vs "as moderators"). That is no less true of us...probably more true, in fact, because most of us were pretty active in the forums before stepping into this role. No doubt this could easily cause some confusion if one were to "switch hats" mid thread. For that reason, I commend Randy for sticking with his decision to not issue points/warnings in a thread with which he is involved.

Not enough consistency? Probably not. Different terms and phrases obviously mean different things to different people. Some will put a stronger emphasis on certain issues than others. Some will elect to initially address things personally, others will "shoot first". People complained that there wasn't consistency when there were 4 moderators...adding more people, with different personalities, and different backgrounds, and you naturally have more diversity in how things will be handled. To a degree, that will improve with time. To a degree, the differences will become more obvious. Bottom line is, as long as you are posting within the rules and guidelines of this site, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

To those of you that put me on your short list - I appreciate the vote of confidence.

 

[Griz]

I've often thought of moderation in similiar fashion to the right to vote,suffrage etc. I think the term ''right'' is more of a misnomer as it, unfortunately, does not imply qualifications. Maybe an IQ test is a good place to start........

Griz

 

[Cat_72]

ME! ME! ME!

Par for the course. A small subset of members don't like the latest change. So what else is new around here?

Just in case no one has noticed, the decision has already been made and implemented. Opinions were specifically NOT solicited beforehand just for this very reason. I knew for a FACT that it would not be universally embraced, so I decided to not waste my time.

So if you don't like it, please just get over it. You can state you don't like it, if you want to, but that's about as far as it is going to go. It is HERE, NOW, so just deal with it.

I don't expect the way things are set up now to change. That has nothing to do with why I posted the list of folks that I thought would be the ideal moderators.

I posted my list, thinking perhaps instead of just bellyaching about the way some are taking their "responsibility on", perhaps by some of us listing who we thought would be our choices for the job, perhaps some that are currently moderators and not on our lists would step back and think about WHY we chose the people we did, and maybe strive to do things the way that perhaps some of these other folks would do. Maybe I'm giving too much credit to some, but that's all I am aiming for with my list....something to make those people involved THINK before reacting.

In that respect...I don't find this thread useless in the least. That's how I AM dealing with it.

 

[Lucille]

I've often thought of moderation in similiar fashion to the right to vote,suffrage etc. I think the term ''right'' is more of a misnomer as it, unfortunately, does not imply qualifications. Maybe an IQ test is a good place to start........

Griz

I totally disagree with this. There are people with a very modest IQ who are born leaders and have a knack for handling people. I know several LEOs and although one is very bright the rest, good officers, seem of average intelligence.

What makes them gifted is not the ability to catch and punish wrongdoers although that is important; it is rather the ability to go in and defuse situations so that they do not escalate, and get the parties involved, if there is an altercation, to settle their differences in a calmer manner.

I think the best moderators are not simply 'ticket writers' although that needs to be done sometimes; rather they are problem solvers.

 

[Griz]

And then there are those with above average IQ's that misread the underlying meaning of my statement.

Griz

 

[Lucille]

What has happened to you Bob? You used to be a facilitator also; looked to build. Of late you seem critical and judgmental; I know you are not that way with family and friends, and I liked conversations with the old Bob who worked to form bonds and understanding when someone disagreed with a post..

 

[Lucille]

I would prefer to direct some of this energy towards answering the people in the various forums who are asking questions regarding the care or taxonomy of their animals.

I think it is interesting to hear what some think of how the community is run but I think, like Mike, that some energy would be well spent helping those with questions.
I posted a question about chameleons and got 2 nice answers for which I am grateful, but there are some very experienced chameleon keepers who have not yet chimed in to help. I wish they would, my questions are genuine.

 

[Bill & Amy]

Bobby, 99% of the time I agree with you on most subjects here on fauna. I really think you are letting your past dealings with this person decide your future actions. As a moderator you shouldn't let that affect you, especially on a personal level. Maybe I am missing something, but this thread was started to see who people would chose. Sledgehammer did so in this post.

Here is my short-list for those who should have "The Power".
Obviously, some of these individuals already possess the ability to moderate.
I don't feel that they should not be given their due recognition because of that fact.

They are listed in alphabetical order (by last name).

Clay Davenport (Clay Davenport)
Laura Fopiano (Laura Fopiano)
Mike Greathouse (Mike Greathouse)
Sammy Gregg (shrap)
Bill Hicok (Bill & Amy)
Casey Hulse (Casey Hulse)
Dennis Hultman (Dennis Hultman)
Art Klass (Art Klass)
John Schmitt (Suncoast Herpetological)
Harald Moore (hhmoore)
Bob Woodard (Griz)

As a sidenote, I would like to see who these people would choose.
(For those on my list who have not yet posted their choices).

Then you reply with this quote.

Well I guess you don't like me because I did not let you slide on this post: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=482162&postcount=164

Or was it this one? http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=485359&postcount=50

I bet this thread is your way to whine about the warning points, you did not deserve them, right?

Your actions speak real loud, however I would guess your opinion should mean something.

That's antagonism, plain and simple. Moderation can't be personal to be fair. You reacted just because your name wasn't on his list. I really think everyone needs to take a step back and think about these warnings etc. You even said yourself that he didn't deserve the warning points. Then let me ask you this, has anyone issued a warning point abuse to the giver?

Bobby, this doesn't change how I see you as a great participant on this site. I just think we sometimes take things too personal.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Well Lucille, since you mentioned it ....

I think it is interesting to hear what some think of how the community is run but I think, like Mike, that some energy would be well spent helping those with questions.
I posted a question about chameleons and got 2 nice answers for which I am grateful, but there are some very experienced chameleon keepers who have not yet chimed in to help. I wish they would, my questions are genuine.

I believe you took Mike's thoughts for quite a run, but lets put up your "question" from the Chameleon Forum:

Veiled

Finally after many years of admiring chameleons, I am going to have one of my own. I've read a lot but I'm still apprehensive, of all the reptile critters excepting perhaps the ant eating lizards, the chameleons seem to be the most challenging.
For those who have veileds I would love hearing about them and how they live, and what they eat and don't eat for you.

Where's the question ? You "asked" for people to entertain you with their knowledge of veiled chameleon husbandry. You are disappointed that "very experienced chameleons keepers have not chimed in to help ...."

Here's some "help". "Experienced keepers" have expended enormous time and efforts putting together websites chock-full of information which is freely available to you, and which you know how to access. If you lack the initiative to research the basic husbandry needs yourself, and instead are relying on others to bring it to your doorstep in a forum, then heed your own characterization that chameleons are "challenging", and don't get one.

My issue is not with your "question" there, but rather with your above post here. Glad to "help" anytime

 

[Lucille]

Here's some "help". "Experienced keepers" have expended enormous time and efforts putting together websites chock-full of information which is freely available to you, and which you know how to access. If you lack the initiative to research the basic husbandry needs yourself, and instead are relying on others to bring it to your doorstep in a forum, then heed your own characterization that chameleons are "challenging", and don't get one.

My issue is not with your "question" there, but rather with your above post here. Glad to "help" anytime

I have done tons of research. I come to Fauna to get the expertise of those who have been keepers and to ask questions and talk with those who have experience.
If accessing sites were the answer to everything there would be no need for any forums here on Fauna, but I like talking to others and getting to know what works for them. I think the Fauna forums are a positive experience.

 

[Chameleon Company]

You can lead a horse to water ...

I have done tons of research. I come to Fauna to get the expertise of those who have been keepers and to ask questions and talk with those who have experience.
If accessing sites were the answer to everything there would be no need for any forums here on Fauna, but I like talking to others and getting to know what works for them. I think the Fauna forums are a positive experience.

Lucille, all that is well and good. What seemed a horrid twist on Mike's words was your self-serving example how others had not "chimed in to help you" in a forum completely unrelated to this one. Your question was more of a chat or discussion topic, and yet you chose to blame others for not answering your "questions". You asked for "expert" advice, and I gave it to you.

Your criticism here was mis-directed, and should go to a larger issue which Rich has addressed already, and which I believe you have seen, namely his de-emphasis of the side-bar forums. Lack of participation there is not the fault of those experts whose bells you thought should have been rung, and who did not come running to address what you would "love to hear". Rich made an effort to rejuvenite them some time ago, and it did not work. If there is any irony here, its that what remained of that failed effort morphed into the new cops on the beat.

 

[Lucille]

You asked for "expert" advice, and I gave it to you.

I will repeat your advice, with your name, to the other chameleon folk I meet.

 

[WebSlave]

Your criticism here was mis-directed, and should go to a larger issue which Rich has addressed already, and which I believe you have seen, namely his de-emphasis of the side-bar forums. Lack of participation there is not the fault of those experts whose bells you thought should have been rung, and who did not come running to address what you would "love to hear".

So whose fault is it that those "experts" have not participated in the forums related to their specialty? Take your yourself as an example, Jim. Certainly you have an interest in Chameleons, but you treat the Chameleon discussion forum here as some place that you may get your feet dirty if you participate there. But yet you have found yourself comfortable in engaging in discussions in the BOI and elsewhere on this site. Just curious about why that Chameleon forum here is so repugnant to you to participate within.

Rich made an effort to rejuvenite them some time ago, and it did not work. If there is any irony here, its that what remained of that failed effort morphed into the new cops on the beat.

Man I DO love irony. And certainly the irony about the complaints concerning the selection process for the "warning mods" does seem to escape people that most of my reasoning for selecting those members to participate in this plan was EXACTLY for this very reason. THOSE people were willing to make the extra effort to help out here. THEY demonstrated the willingness to try to make a difference here. Not all of them, of course, as some were just making the extra effort FINANCIALLY. But still, this point does seem to escape some people, even if in some cases it is purposely overlooked. Man, isn't IRONY fun?

 

[Lucille]

So whose fault is it that those "experts" have not participated in the forums related to their specialty? Take your yourself as an example, Jim. Certainly you have an interest in Chameleons, but you treat the Chameleon discussion forum here as some place that you may get your feet dirty if you participate there. But yet you have found yourself comfortable in engaging in discussions in the BOI and elsewhere on this site. Just curious about why that Chameleon forum here is so repugnant to you to participate within.

Exactly. As a newbie to chameleons, I got told by Jim essentially 'don't bother me for chameleon info, just find a website'

Most people if they look for chameleons would not use a vendor with that attitude, they want to make their purchases from someone as enthusiastic as they are about these wonderful critters.

Even if I can (and have found) info on sites, I want to meet chameleon folk. I like the forums here.

 

[Wilomn]

Exactly. As a newbie to chameleons, I got told by Jim essentially 'don't bother me for chameleon info, just find a website'

Most people if they look for chameleons would not use a vendor with that attitude, they want to make their purchases from someone as enthusiastic as they are about these wonderful critters.

Even if I can (and have found) info on sites, I want to meet chameleon folk. I like the forums here.

It doesn't seem like that's what he said to me.

Here's a quote.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company

Here's some "help". "Experienced keepers" have expended enormous time and efforts putting together websites chock-full of information which is freely available to you, and which you know how to access. If you lack the initiative to research the basic husbandry needs yourself, and instead are relying on others to bring it to your doorstep in a forum, then heed your own characterization that chameleons are "challenging", and don't get one.

My issue is not with your "question" there, but rather with your above post here. Glad to "help" anytime

End quote



Seems more like he said get off your butt and go do some research instead of waiting for someone to come to you to answer the questions you're too lazy to research yourself.

The forums may be underutilized but I seriously doubt that this will bring more traffic to them.

It will, however, make you look rather foolish as well as somewhat lazy and rather expecting this info to be dropped in your lap as if you're intitled to it.

I suspect, not knowing for sure, but I do this myself, that most when looking for information go to the sites of those with the animals I'm interested in to see what they have to say, check links, and then contact them there.

Is there some reason you can't do this lucille?

It seems to me that becoming informed and THEN trying to get others talking about it here in the forums may have been a better route to forum participation than this plan you've facilitated; poor me, I know so little, won't one of you who knows more come and save me?

See what I mean?

 

[Lucille]

It doesn't seem like that's what he said to me.

Here's a quote.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company

Here's some "help". "Experienced keepers" have expended enormous time and efforts putting together websites chock-full of information which is freely available to you, and which you know how to access. If you lack the initiative to research the basic husbandry needs yourself, and instead are relying on others to bring it to your doorstep in a forum, then heed your own characterization that chameleons are "challenging", and don't get one.

My issue is not with your "question" there, but rather with your above post here. Glad to "help" anytime

End quote



Seems more like he said get off your butt and go do some research instead of waiting for someone to come to you to answer the questions you're too lazy to research yourself.

The forums may be underutilized but I seriously doubt that this will bring more traffic to them.

It will, however, make you look rather foolish as well as somewhat lazy and rather expecting this info to be dropped in your lap as if you're intitled to it.

I suspect, not knowing for sure, but I do this myself, that most when looking for information go to the sites of those with the animals I'm interested in to see what they have to say, check links, and then contact them there.

Is there some reason you can't do this lucille?

It seems to me that becoming informed and THEN trying to get others talking about it here in the forums may have been a better route to forum participation than this plan you've facilitated; poor me, I know so little, won't one of you who knows more come and save me?

See what I mean?

Perhaps you skipped over the mention I have made of my research in a later post. But then, you take any opportunity to bash some people, Wesley.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Glad you engaged this Rich !

Webslave writes:
So whose fault is it that those "experts" have not participated in the forums related to their specialty? Take your yourself as an example, Jim. Certainly you have an interest in Chameleons, but you treat the Chameleon discussion forum here as some place that you may get your feet dirty if you participate there. But yet you have found yourself comfortable in engaging in discussions in the BOI and elsewhere on this site. Just curious about why that Chameleon forum here is so repugnant to you to participate within

See if I can do this without calling the baby ugly, or garnering any more warning points. As you said Rich, Take you yourself as an example, Jim. OK, let's do it.

1) I have a good number of posts in that forum, although not as many since you decided it was not worthy of moderation.

2) Back when you were soliciting mod's there, your first choice crapped out, and was removed by you. I then PM'd you and volunteered to take it over, and make it into something. I specifically pointed out to you that it would be a better use of my time than the BOI. You said you would consider it, but "no thanks" for now, as you were leaning against any more mod's. You chose to leave that position unfilled, as you have now let all forums wane.

3) There are other chameleon forums which have far more participation now than the Fauna one, and I am much more active there. Neither you nor I have time to go to every forum, me chameleons and you snakes, etc., and answer all comers. I post where the audience is largest.

Where did I say it was "repugnant", or that it would "dirty my feet? Shame on you. If anything is "repugnant" here Rich, it is how quickly you seem to forget. You chose to de-emphasize those forums, while I made a specific appeal to you otherwise regarding the one in question. What I took issue with was Lucille's claim here that she had not been adequately responded to there. That is not a difficult concept to understand, or is it ?

 

[Wilomn]

Well, loosewheel, I do try to point out stupidity when I see it begin a rampant run.

Funny how you and that rampant stupidity have been so close of late, is it not? If I recall correctly the last time was just a few days ago when you were giving advice about law enforcement, or lack thereof in certain instances, when you really had no knowledge fit to be giving.

Maybe you will find some poor caring person who will take pity on the "I know so little please help me learn and grow" persona you so like to pitch as the real you, but I don't think you're really entitled to complain about not getting that from those who really know what and who you are.

 

[Lucille]

Wesley, we are who we are. You, if I remember, are a real estate clerk. That has nothing to do with finding new knowledge, and that is the purpose of the forums. I have done considerable research but there is nothing like talking to people who actually keep the reptile one is interested in.

 

[Wilomn]

Not even so much as a clerk. But be that as it may, the lack must lie with the one, loosewheel, who does the searching. There is so much info out there, particularly on chams, that the inability to find it must be ....... yours?