The People's Choice

[Wilomn]

Damn, sucked in again.

This is the danger of not being able to put people on ignore.

Ok, back to mental ignore.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Geez Wes. I'm speechless. You defended my position. I thank you sir !

Lucille, you may tell all the world exactly what I told you. BIG BOLD LETTERS. I like to think that my advice to you was "tough love". I don't really have a problem with your "question". Whether you have done "tons of research" is irrelevent. You criticized the "chameleon experts" for not "answering a question" that was not a question, but rather a broad and very open ended invitation which would require much time to properly answer, as if the time was owed or obligated to you ? And if not "owed", then why criticize here ? That's my difficulty with you. You blame the "experts" for not responding, instead of looking at your "invitation" as in need of refinement if a lack of response was the issue.

Rich, you are out there somewhere, but to paraphrase, I did make a major offer to help. You declined. That's fine, but the hypocritical nature of your criticism now has me reaching for the hip-waders.

Geez Wes, you made my day .... even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then ....... damn !

 

[WebSlave]

See if I can do this without calling the baby ugly, or garnering any more warning points. As you said Rich, Take you yourself as an example, Jim. OK, let's do it.

1) I have a good number of posts in that forum, although not as many since you decided it was not worthy of moderation.

OLD posts, Jim. Seems to me they tapered off sharply when I declined your offer to be moderator. Probably just my imagination though, eh?

2) Back when you were soliciting mod's there, your first choice crapped out, and was removed by you. I then PM'd you and volunteered to take it over, and make it into something. I specifically pointed out to you that it would be a better use of my time than the BOI. You said you would consider it, but "no thanks" for now, as you were leaning against any more mod's. You chose to leave that position unfilled, as you have now let all forums wane.

Yes, that is correct. And apparently you took offense at that? Actually I believe my wording was more to the effect that I just wasn't going to be concerned about the discussion forums any longer. Now how is this for a concept? Maybe I was (and am) just reluctant to place someone in a moderator position when there is a history of them bumping heads with me? When it is obvious that we don't see eye to eye in a lot of things, what are the chances that you would moderate a forum in a manner consistent with what I would WANT?

3) There are other chameleon forums which have far more participation now than the Fauna one, and I am much more active there. Neither you nor I have time to go to every forum, me chameleons and you snakes, etc., and answer all comers. I post where the audience is largest.

Understandable. Which explains your avid participation in other areas here on this site........

As for my own participation, well, when you become management, playing is something you have less time for than you would wish for.

Where did I say it was "repugnant", or that it would "dirty my feet? Shame on you. If anything is "repugnant" here Rich, it is how quickly you seem to forget. You chose to de-emphasize those forums, while I made a specific appeal to you otherwise regarding the one in question. What I took issue with was Lucille's claim here that she had not been adequately responded to there. That is not a difficult concept to understand, or is it ?

Please show me where I said that you SAID such things. That is my opinion based on my observance of your participation and expressed as such. From what I could see of Lucille's post, you are a classic example of exactly what she has described. Your reasons may be valid, but the example is no less valid because of them. I simply asked you "why", which you have provided. And for that I thank you.

 

[Stardust]

First of all let me address what this thread was started for, the giving of names of who people would chose to mod on here.
Let me say I was not going to address this thread as I just do not like to participate in naming names good or bad This to me was like the "quote of the day" it can get nasty and although there are times when I like reading the drama for the most part I am sick of drama. Unlike some people I am not really here for all the drama ( tho I cannot say this was always so).
IMO if someone starts a thread in fauna to drop names, "in fun", they surely know that with the egos and drama people this will become a fighting ring of words, I consider this the passive side of the aggressive

Actually, I just wrote the on topic to address the off topic convo in here.
As it is well known, I am not a Lucille fan but on this particular occasion I happen to agree with her. (Not on going off topic on here or how she went about it on this thread) but I do agree that some of the more experienced people ( myself included) do not venture into the forums enough to give some friendly advice.
I agree with her because I remember how I was when I first got a new reptile and just wanted to be around people who also have them and "in the know" to perhaps learn things that are not always found in a care sheet ect but found only when talking with people on a friendly basis who are into the same thing I am that have more experience.
I realize people get tired of repeating the same things over and over again to the newbies that come in, I also have come to the knowledge that those "newbies" can be a potential customer to those "experts" that sell these animals.
Fauna, as I see it, has a problem with letting down the guard because at some other point that could be used against them at some other time(look at the crap Wes is getting over the puppy pic, tho that is truly funny, lol). A little patience and kindness can go a long way, no matter how trivial it may seem to those in the know.
Anyway, I don't take these sites personal any longer, these are just my thoughts, two cents or what have you. I happen to like this site as a whole, yep I have been more of a "money giver" to it as of late rather then just posting like I used to, I have been thinking about putting more effort into interacting more (I do, however have more of a busy real life, which I have found to be much more fascinating then computer life), being a little nicer even to people I do not agree with (there are people here I do like and respect and think are very funny individuals) and just not take anything personal, even if it IS personal.
Ah well guess I droned on enough. Bottom line to this drivel is that I would like to see this site as a whole become more active, not just the BOI and drama aspect of it and some of the people here that are very knowledgable can certainly make a huge difference.

 

[Stardust]

Geez Wes. I'm speechless. You defended my position. I thank you sir !

I was also shocked! Bout fell off my seat, the surprises just keep on comin'!

 

[Chameleon Company]

We can go a bit more tit-fot-tat here ...

Jim. Seems to me they (your posts and participation) tapered off sharply when I declined your offer to be moderator.

Rich, like many of your periperal forums, it lost traffic. You know that. You would also see that the then-moderator was initiating many threads, and I was contributing to her initiatives. She got in over her head quick, and you yanked her. Once she was gone, I had no desire to initiate or carry threads as a poster as she had been doing as a moderator. No problem there, but to now create a logic trail as you have is without basis.

Yes, that is correct (my offer to moderate was declined). And apparently you took offense at that? Actually I believe my wording was more to the effect that I just wasn't going to be concerned about the discussion forums any longer. Now how is this for a concept? Maybe I was (and am) just reluctant to place someone in a moderator position when there is a history of them bumping heads with me? When it is obvious that we don't see eye to eye in a lot of things, what are the chances that you would moderate a forum in a manner consistent with what I would WANT?

Nope, I did not take offense to "that". I took offense to your allegations here and now that I saw the forum as "dirty or repugnant" (your words characterizing my lack of recent participation). I reminded you of my earlier support to rebut your current mischaracterizations. I have absolutely no problem with your declining my earlier offer for whatever reasons you had.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company
3) There are other chameleon forums which have far more participation now than the Fauna one, and I am much more active there. Neither you nor I have time to go to every forum, me chameleons and you snakes, etc., and answer all comers. I post where the audience is largest.

Understandable. Which explains your avid participation in other areas here on this site........

Rich, I participate in "other areas" here for entertainment value, and as I am able. Glad to clear that up. As for time management, etc, as with you Rich, a few of us have the same management and owner time demands. You should be able to understand my lack of participation exactly as you understand your own.

 

[Cat_72]

While I don't know if I completely agree with the first part of your post, as I already stated why I "dropped names"...though I can't say that was a similar goal to the OP....

THIS part of your post is far from "drivel", lol....and I agree completely.

Actually, I just wrote the on topic to address the off topic convo in here.
As it is well known, I am not a Lucille fan but on this particular occasion I happen to agree with her. (Not on going off topic on here or how she went about it on this thread) but I do agree that some of the more experienced people ( myself included) do not venture into the forums enough to give some friendly advice.
I agree with her because I remember how I was when I first got a new reptile and just wanted to be around people who also have them and "in the know" to perhaps learn things that are not always found in a care sheet ect but found only when talking with people on a friendly basis who are into the same thing I am that have more experience.
I realize people get tired of repeating the same things over and over again to the newbies that come in, I also have come to the knowledge that those "newbies" can be a potential customer to those "experts" that sell these animals.
Fauna, as I see it, has a problem with letting down the guard because at some other point that could be used against them at some other time(look at the crap Wes is getting over the puppy pic, tho that is truly funny, lol). A little patience and kindness can go a long way, no matter how trivial it may seem to those in the know.
Anyway, I don't take these sites personal any longer, these are just my thoughts, two cents or what have you. I happen to like this site as a whole, yep I have been more of a "money giver" to it as of late rather then just posting like I used to, I have been thinking about putting more effort into interacting more (I do, however have more of a busy real life, which I have found to be much more fascinating then computer life), being a little nicer even to people I do not agree with (there are people here I do like and respect and think are very funny individuals) and just not take anything personal, even if it IS personal.
Ah well guess I droned on enough. Bottom line to this drivel is that I would like to see this site as a whole become more active, not just the BOI and drama aspect of it and some of the people here that are very knowledgable can certainly make a huge difference.

I do my best to participate in ALL of the forums I am able, as do some great folks here. I still believe, however, if more of those very knowledgable folks spent the amount of time on the other forums as they do posting on the BOI simply for "entertainment value" or "drama", just think how much this site could grow and improve.

 

[Wilomn]

I still believe, however, if more of those very knowledgable folks spent the amount of time on the other forums as they do posting on the BOI simply for "entertainment value" or "drama", just think how much this site could grow and improve.

This is an interesting perspective.

WHY would anyone who has been here for a long time bother? We all know that as soon as this site fails to pay its own way it will be dropped.

What's the incentive to put personal time into a forum?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering, out loud, why there may not be more forum participation.

Some folks have put quite a bit of time into various forums and sort of been slapped when push came to shove and rich's general, I don't care I'm doing what I want whether I've asked for your advice or not, demeanor is not exactly appealing.

I'm not ragging on rich here, I do pretty much get why he thinks the way he does, it's just that I sort of see it as playing two sides of the same coin on the same toss.

So, what's the incentive to do anything other than either be entertained or entertain if not both.

Oh sure, I know the standard, help newbs, contribute for what we do have, sort of pay it forward, but other than the occasional payment, as it were, what's in it for anyone?

Or, maybe that's enough. Maybe it's enough to just occasionally help out or contribute what we know.

I don't know.

I do know that sometimes I don't participate as much as I could just because I've done it so often in the past.

Of course, one might expect that forum mods would actually do something, anything in some cases, to promote activity in the forums they are mods of. Sadly this is lacking as well, especially lacking which says a lot for both rich's involvment and the standards one must uphold to maintain one's mod status. I'm not singling anyone but dand out here, as I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the other forums per se, but since I do sort of specialize in calkings, I do watch that one.

It's resemblance to a raisen is amazing.

Anyway, I don't know that I've helped any but hopefully you'll find a bit of something in this rambling that may lead you to the knowledge you seek.

Good luck and let me know if you figure it out.

 

[jsrocket]

Well Wes, for once, I gotta agree. I have been solicited many times to moderate various internet sites. As soon as I told them that I would be needing compensation for my time and work, they opted for free (hey, you get what you pay for) labor.

I contribute for free, when I'm in a magnanimous mood. Otherwise, find your free labor elsewhere.

 

[Wilomn]

Hmmmmm. I wasn't really looking at compensation per se, more one of motivation, not that cash isn't, that would be sufficient to get people who cared to give more time.

I just don't see much backing by the higher ups for the lower downs.

Of course it's entirly possible that what I see is not what others see, as has been seen many many times here on this site.

Still though, I reckon we'll see.

Eventually.

 

[jsrocket]

I figure that if you're going to take the time and effort to DO WORK for someone else, you should be compensated.

Unless, of course, you choose to offer up that work for no fee.

Personally, I don't work for free. If that sounds harsh, call up a plumber, and ask (him/her) to fix your bathroom for free, just because you have status on the internet.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I think it an oversight for anyone to suggest that non-participation in a Fauna side-forum translates as non-participation in other similar venues, or a lack of effort to contribute adequately to the hobby. Speaking for the chameleon forum, whatever expertise and participation may have been there once is not there now. Whatever the reason, the masses-no-longer-there is not the "cause", but only the "effect". The chameleon hobby is growing, just not here ! If blame is to be assigned, it is absolutely a failure of management. If they made a choice to not care anymore, or to de-emphasize for any reason, that's certainly their prerogative, but does make any chastisement for not being here a bit weak.

 

[WebSlave]

Sorry, fellas, as I really hate to bust your bubble. You are putting the cart before the horse here. My statements that I was "giving up" or "de-emphasizing" the discussion forums came LONG after all efforts I made to get them pumped up had obviously failed. Now some of the forum mods have made a noticeable difference in the forums, but it is only "noticeable" in that there is now a heartbeat where before there was none. They STILL are not bustling with activity.

So, as I mentioned, your timeline breaks some laws of causality. You are virtually claiming that the reason members have not been EVER really frequenting most of the discussion forums was because they could read into the future to psychically see my current opinion about things here. Interesting hypothesis, but you could drive through the holes where facts are absent.

 

[Cat_72]

What's the incentive to put personal time into a forum?

Hmmm.

My incentive is that I enjoy doing it. I appreciate what help I got when I was a total newbie, and I enjoy being able to offer help when I can, and just BS in general about herps. I don't consider giving out friendly advice "work". I see questions from newbies go unanswered in areas where I have absolutely no knowledge...and I feel bad for them when I can't do anything to help. And it saddens me knowing that there are folks here that COULD offer the help they need, but choose not to.....

I forget how many folks there are that don't do anything unless there is "something in it for them".

 

[Stardust]

I agree Cat.
When I do help I feel good and that is enough for me. It is the fact that you may have helped someone who potentially could have made some fatal mistake or have gotten discouraged.
It feels good to know that there are people out there who were beginners once as well and care enough to take the time to help you.
Gratification is a good thing.

 

[Wilomn]

dand, unless you truly are as stupid as I suspect you are then you are well aware that when loosewheel calls me wesley that wesley equates to me calling her loosewheel.

Since you have seen fit to give me warning points for calling her loosewheel, and I wonder if you found that just by your dogged reading of EVERY SINGLE POST I MAKE, or if you got a crybaby PM telling you, TELLING MIND YOU, that I needed points for being me to your phone pal.

You are WELL aware of this tit for tat between us, you were there when I was given my last vacation for using the very same loosewheel appelation in responce to the very same wesley she first threw out at me.

SO, unless you really are dumb as a brass doorknob, I expect I'll be seeing warning points in her little warning level accumulator.

Unless of course you are acting in a biased and unfair manner, skipping over the infractions of your friends while being a super slueth with those you don't care for. But, were you to be acting in such fashion, you would simply be proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are, as I have stated from the beginning, unfit to be a moderator.

 

[shrap]

Yep, I was waiting for this scenario to play out when I first read her post calling you that. We all see the "new mods" picking and choosing who to hit. Ignoring the infractions of their friends and the infractions of the other "new mods".

Just more rope, really.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Seems there's a rustling in the wind that thinks that there's some cabal of folks with knowledge in a specific area of herps who "could help but don't help", while the proponents of that thought note that they help all they can because its rewarding, fulfilling, etc. I do not know a single entity in my field who has even a smidgen of knowledge who does not expend personal time and effort sharing it with others. From PM's etc, I know that a few of you realize the traps and pitfalls that await those, whose knowledge is more sought after, who do enter the arena of being "available" a bit too often. Its not just questions in a forum that appear when "newb's" think you are waiting in the wings to reply, but its also your email inbox, your phone, etc, etc. I wish it weren't so sometimes, but modern technology, starting with the phone, has made it easier for people to "ring your bell". It may be a sad testiment that while computers enhance those with a zest for knowledge seeking to become more brilliant, they also enhance those equally as lazy to stay lazy. It is my opinion that every member here shares their knowledge, at times extensively, and for no other reason than the gratification WE ALL derive from helping others. For anyone to think that a "newb" with internet access goes blowing in the wind unable to get help is just not realistic.

 

[kmurphy]

....calls me wesley that wesley equates to me calling her loosewheel.

I agree, unless the "mods" can give out warning points equally then they should just stay out of it. Calling Wes "wesley" may not be "name calling" but it certainly is antagonistic.

 

[DAND]

This is an interesting perspective.

WHY would anyone who has been here for a long time bother? We all know that as soon as this site fails to pay its own way it will be dropped.

What's the incentive to put personal time into a forum?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering, out loud, why there may not be more forum participation.

Some folks have put quite a bit of time into various forums and sort of been slapped when push came to shove and rich's general, I don't care I'm doing what I want whether I've asked for your advice or not, demeanor is not exactly appealing.

I'm not ragging on rich here, I do pretty much get why he thinks the way he does, it's just that I sort of see it as playing two sides of the same coin on the same toss.

So, what's the incentive to do anything other than either be entertained or entertain if not both.

Oh sure, I know the standard, help newbs, contribute for what we do have, sort of pay it forward, but other than the occasional payment, as it were, what's in it for anyone?

Or, maybe that's enough. Maybe it's enough to just occasionally help out or contribute what we know.

I don't know.

I do know that sometimes I don't participate as much as I could just because I've done it so often in the past.

Of course, one might expect that forum mods would actually do something, anything in some cases, to promote activity in the forums they are mods of. Sadly this is lacking as well, especially lacking which says a lot for both rich's involvment and the standards one must uphold to maintain one's mod status. I'm not singling anyone but dand out here, as I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the other forums per se, but since I do sort of specialize in calkings, I do watch that one.

It's resemblance to a raisen is amazing.

Anyway, I don't know that I've helped any but hopefully you'll find a bit of something in this rambling that may lead you to the knowledge you seek.

Good luck and let me know if you figure it out.

During the 10 months previous to me becoming the Moderator of the Kingsnake discussion forum from 7-1-2005 to 4-30-2006 there were 37 new threads started with 176 replies, of which three (3) of those replies were made by Wes, and of those replies, one (1) thread was started by Wes. During the same time frame I made nine (9) replies and of those replies one (1) thread was started by me.

Since I have become the Moderator on May 2, 2006 (not quite the 10 month time frame used for the numbers above-9 2/3 months actually) there have been 65 new threads with 422 replies of which Wes has made thirteen (13) replies, and of those replies with one (1) thread was started by Wes. During the same time frame I made eighty-two (82) replies and of those replies seven (7) threads were started by me. That is over an 800% increase in replies made by me and a 700% increase in threads I started. Since I have become the Moderator I have even managed to even spark an increase in Wes’ participation level within this forum by over 320% in replies made.

With an increase of almost 80% in threads started and an increase of just under a 140% in replies made I fail to see how this resembles a “raisen” or a raisin for that matter. Appears to be grapes to me. Speaking of grapes, it appears to be grapes to you too Wes, sour. Sour grapes make for bad w(h)ine Wes.

I’d also like to note that the numbers from the ten (10) months prior to me becoming the Moderator included the participation of members like Sasheena who were major contributors (60+ posts) to the 176 replies made that have not posted during the time I have been the Moderator.

I am sorry Wes that your personal vendetta towards me clouds your judgment and causes you to post such blatant lies. And lies they must be since we all know you wouldn’t spout off without having all the facts first. You have been making such false claims that it is “personal” between us and that I am “stalking” you, yet YOU are the one who is bringing me up in threads (like this one) not the other way around. It’s a rarity for me to even reply to you seeing it as futile and a waste of time but on the occasion I will as I am doing here now.