They can sense their fate.

[dcondie]

Yesterday was feeding day for my snakes. I choose to feed in a different enclosure than the snake’s main home. I get my rats from our local pet store and they put them all in the same box. The rats are always very active, scurrying around and climbing all over the box. Most of the time the boxes have a wire mesh window so the rats can see out and get some fresh air. Well, today as I was feeding I set the box down and the rats could see into the feeding enclosure and could hear what was going on. As I started to feed the rats became less and less active. When I got down to the last three rats they were huddled in the corner and not making a move. They also had very intense expressions. It occurred to me that they could see and hear the other rats being eaten. I know that rats are extremely intelligent and thinking back that happens every time I feed but this was the first time I had made the connection. I feel kind of bad. I will admit it was sobering to see the level of intelligence displayed in those tiny little animals.

 

[SPJ]

Yesterday was feeding day for my snakes. I choose to feed in a different enclosure than the snake’s main home.

All I've got is why?

 

[Dbz4246]

I understand what you mean. That very reason made my decision to switch to F/T easier. I hate hurting animals even when it's for food purposes.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

that's so very sad.
And yes, rats can be very aware, intelligent and emotional creatures.

That very reason made my decision to switch to F/T easier. I hate hurting animals even when it's for food purposes.

same here. The less amount of suffering an animal has to go through, the better imo.

 

[EmeraldBoid]

I have one little tree boa I still need to convert from live. Last year I was trying to get one of my balls started from a fast and I introduced a live adult mouse, after three seperate days of being offered as food I found the poor mouse dead in his little hamster cage...apparently the stress had got the better of him.

 

[byrns149]

All I've got is why?

Prevents cage aggression

 

[SPJ]

That is a myth.

 

[byrns149]

That is a myth.

Ehh i dont think so. And also If you have loose substrate, the snake can ingest some during feeding inside its enclosure. Better safe then sorry.

 

[SPJ]

Cage aggression is a myth and you don't need to worry about them eating substrate.

 

[dcondie]

There are 2 main reasons I still feed live.

1. My local pet store is very hit or miss with f/t. the owner breeds her own rats and mice and sometimes she will cull a few for f/t and sometime she won’t. I have requested f/t but when you’re the only pet store in town sometimes customer service lacks. There are a few other snake owners here in town that feed live, so she doesn’t see a need for f/t that often. She also charges the same for a frozen rat as a live rat so there is no cost savings for me. However, I do pick up as many f/t feeders whenever I’m in Salt Lake City and it does save me a ton of money.

2. My wife is kind of creeped out by dead rats in her refrigerator. She knows that they aren’t carrying disease or anything but just the thought of it next to a frozen pizza is almost too much for her. I’m probably lucky I have my snakes at all. She is very good to me in that way…and other ways but that wouldn’t be appropriate for this blog!

 

[Lucille]

Daniel,

You could easily and fairly inexpensively have a small chest freezer in the garage just for feeders. And once you have that in place you could probably save substantial money by buying large orders from one of the commercial feeder companies.

 

[EmeraldBoid]

Prevents cage aggression

That is a myth.

Ehh i dont think so. And also If you have loose substrate, the snake can ingest some during feeding inside its enclosure. Better safe then sorry.

Cage aggression is a myth and you don't need to worry about them eating substrate.

Cage aggression is real; however, it usually has nothing to do with how you feed. In most cases the cage is seen by the snake as a little hideway, some just never get used to being pulled out of this secure pocket and need a minute outside the cage to realize there is no immediate danger, hence the common phrase, "...can be handled once out of the cage". Ingestion of "natural" bedding is fine as long as it is not small rocks or excessively large pieces of bark. How much leaf litter do you think wild copperheads swallow every year hunting in those piles? A hydrated animal with good temperatures can pass the substrate. I feed in the cage because it's convenient and the snakes seem to be more comfortable.

I too use a chest freezer, always have some money on hand to replace it though...happened to me a few weeks ago and I almost lost months worth of feeders. I got mine at Walmart for about $150.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

2. My wife is kind of creeped out by dead rats in her refrigerator. She knows that they aren’t carrying disease or anything but just the thought of it next to a frozen pizza is almost too much for her. I’m probably lucky I have my snakes at all. She is very good to me in that way…and other ways but that wouldn’t be appropriate for this blog!

haha I keep my f/t next to the frozen pizza. I do plan to eventually get a stand alone mini freezer. I keep the vacuum sealed and zip locked rats wrapped in white plastic trash bags so in case anyone is over and looks in there, they don't freak out.

Sometimes it's cheaper to buy bulk frozen, even with the additional shipping costs, instead of getting live.

If you have to continue to feed live, consider either pre-killing the rats yourself (since this can be done faster than a snake killing it and keep the others from having to listen to it) or keeping the box of other rats away from the 'kill zone' so they don't hear the death of the others? just a thought.

I hate to quote wiki but here we go:
"In the latter part of the 20th century, the layout and design of most U.S. slaughterhouses was influenced by the work of Dr. Temple Grandin. She suggested that reducing the stress of animals being led to slaughter may help slaughterhouse operators improve efficiency and profit. In particular she applied an understanding of animal psychology to design pens and corrals which funnel a herd of animals arriving at a slaughterhouse into a single file ready for slaughter. Her corrals employ long sweeping curves so that each animal is prevented from seeing what lies ahead and just concentrates on the hind quarters of the animal in front of it. This design – along with the design elements of solid sides, solid crowd gate, and reduced noise at the end point – work together to encourage animals forward in the chute and to not reverse direction."

 

[Shadera]

I love me some Temple Grandin. <3

Cheapo freezer is definitely an option. I got a stand up for about a hundred bucks several years ago and it's still going strong. Of course these days it doesn't hold rats, it's packed with homegrown pastured chicken and turkey.

I've been back and forth over the years. Started with live, then went to FT, then perfect frozen rats got difficult and expensive to find so I went back to breeding rats. Both ways have merits, both have their issues. Whatever works for you and your snakes, is what you should feed.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Cage aggression is a myth and you don't need to worry about them eating substrate.

I'm going to have to agree with this, I don't really care what anyone believes. I have 35 balls and I feed them all in their cages, I have never had one bite me when I go in for cleaning or anything else. So either cage aggression is not a real thing, or somehow I got every single snake that doesn't exhibit such behavior (which seems a little unlikely ).

I have been bit ONCE by a snake in the cage, and that's because I was doing my feeding rounds, had rat smell all over my hands, and absentmindedly reached in to move her water bowl. She's one of those that sits right at the front when she knows it's feeding time, so as soon as she smelled my rat hand she struck at it. I don't think I would really chalk that up to cage aggression; any other time that I go into her cage she's a complete sweetheart.

As far as the original post...yea, I feel bad when they know it's coming. I breed my own rats, so I'll usually just take 1-3 at a time and dump them in the bins one right after another to avoid stressing them more than necessary. I feel bad killing them but it's part of the job.

 

[zachbinger]

You're more apt to get tagged if you feed in separate cage due to every time you handle your snake they will go into feed mode

 

[Helenthereef]

I used to keep my breeder mice in an open-topped aquarium up on top of a tall bookcase.

One day I came home to find that my cat had climbed the bookcase (must have done it ladder style - more than 6 feet high and no nearby furniture) and was sitting with a baffled look on her face, surrounded by absolutely still, frozen, mice. She hadn't touched a one - had seen them moving around, been interested enough to climb the bookcase, but once they froze she lost them completely.

Once I'd got her out, the mice all returned to their normal business - not noticeably permanently traumatised.

From which I learned three things:
1) You need a top on an enclosure no matter where it is
2) Cats are funny beings
3) Mice (and rats) have this amazing defense in the face of predators - stop moving!

So yes, I'd move the rats away from the feeding tank in future in the interests of kindness, but I wouldn't feel too guilty about the past - you had triggered a defense mechanism, not a mental breakdown.




By the way I think it is entirely a personal decision whether to feed in the main snake enclosure or to use feeding tubs - I happen to be a feeding tub person and not particularly interested in debating or defending that choice.

Similarly the choice to feed f/t or live - as long as you know the pros and cons of each and make wise decisions (such as never leaving a snake unattended with a live rodent) I don't see it's anyone else's business unless the OP asks for advice - and it wasn't really the point of this original post.



So there!