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this is where our conversation belongs

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lepgex14

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well for one thing arent you all suposed to be blastering me have you all forgot y you posted?

you are all here for the best intrest of my animals
so u guys are firghting?
well this is a start for the rest of the help
 
So, now you've seen how not to get results from a forum post first hand.

Now, as for your animals:  You need to get that retained shed off.  My advice is to consult with a veterinarian on this, and to also review husbandry if you are able to afford that.  If you can't afford veterinary care for the animals, then you cannot afford to keep them.  That's not an insult, it's a basic premise of keeping reptiles or any other pet for that matter.

In any event, here is a link to a page on shedding problems:

http://www.anapsid.org/shedding.html#prob

Read the part on Problem Sheds, and also read the whole article.  

On the same site is a basic care sheet for leopard geckos (check out as much of the site as you care to read, it's got a lot of good information on it):

http://www.anapsid.org/lep_gek.html

OK, the other part of the shedding equation breaks down into three  possibilities (and if anyone has more, please pipe in):

1. Leopard geckos need a dry setup, but they also need a humid area to retreat to, as this helps when it's time to shed.  Provide a moist hide box by taking a small rubbermaid or similar container, and cutting an access hole in it about an inch or so above floor level.   Fill the bottom of the box with a moist substrate.  Sphagnum peat moss is a good choice, or even paper towels.  Placement of the box in the cage should be on either the cool side or half on/half off the heat pad.  Make sure it is always moist.  Mist it daily if you have to.

2.  Parasites can contribute to bad sheds. Reptiles excrete an enzyme between the old skin and the new to help loosen the old skin so that it will come off.  If the animal is in poor health and unable to produce this enzyme, then this can cause a bad shed.  Intestinal parasites can inhibit the animal's abilitiy to absorb the nutrients it needs to create these enzymes.  You should take a fresh fecal sample to your vet to test for parasites.  You can keep it fresh by placing it in a plastic bag with a damp piece of paper towel and refridgerating it until you take it to the vet.

3. Poor nutrition can contribute, so you need to make sure your animals are feeding well and properly supplemented.  The caresheet above should discuss this, and more can be found by searching Google.

So, first things first:

1. Make sure you have moist hides for your animals.
2. Get fecal samples to your vet.
3. Review the information on helping get rid of that retained shed and get if off your animals.
4. Review husbandry information and make sure your setups are good.

I'll let you answer this before getting into ideas to improve setups, so you have a chance to ask specific questions, since I'm not sure how your animals are set up at the moment.
 
Brian,

You said, in essence among other things, that if you cannot afford a vet you should not be keeping pets. I cannot afford a vet for other than for dog and cat stuff> Taht stuff is fairly cheap because so many vets are into dogs and cats - competition brings down the prices as does the large amount of dog and cat business they do.

I certainly cannot afford vet prices for snake related stuff. Their prices are through the roof for herps. When a vet charges arounfd $100 for a fecal smear to look for worms I say forget about it! Yet, I do keep snakes, lots of them. One thing I make sure I do is to keep them in pristine health because I cannot afford a vet. Why should I waste money on those money grubbers. I went to a couple of vets in the past for my snakes. They claimed to be herp vets. Sad thing is I knew more than they did. That made me make up my mind to take excellent care of my animals, and if they get sick, I treat them first just as I would treat myself or my children first. You know what I mean don't you - they get the sniffles I give them sniffles medicine. If on the other hand they absolutely need a vet, say for a terrible injury then I would take them even if the cost was prohibitive - that after all, is simply being responsible, even when I really cannot afford it.

Please don't be so domineering as to tell people when we can and cannot keep pets. That is starting to sound too much like gun control to me. I would ahte to have to join the National Herpetological Association, as the NRA already charges too much.
 
Brian,  That was some excellent advice and kudos to you for the delivery.  Randy I hope your reading all this as it will prove fruitful in getting those critters back up to par. Since this is now in the proper section of the site let's see just how effective this site can be.  I suggest we use this thread to slowly but surely bring Randy's animals back to proper health.  I would think having Randy list all his husbandy here so we many CONSTRUCTIVELY and POSITIVELY help.  Let's start with some basics and I will list them numerically to simplify it.

1.  What type and size enclosue are you using for how many and what size geckos?
2.  What are you using for substrate?
3.  Is there fresh water avaiblible?
4.  Is there vitamin and calciums supplement availible always?
5.   What and how much are you feeding and with what supplements?
6.  How often do you clean and with what type of cleaner?
7.  Are hide spots availible and moist areas as well?
8.  What are the Temperatures they are kept at?
9.  do they get a normal 12 on 12 off photoperiod?

We'll start with these 9. things and go from there.  List out the 1-9 items radny and we'll go through and see whats what...Mike
 
Glenn,

Let's see some constructive advice that will help the kid's geckos.

No, I don't think you should be keeping an animal if you can't afford to pay for its medical expenses when needed.  That's an opinion, and was stated as such.  It's also an opinion shared by a huge number of herpers.  You're entitled to your opinion, but your melodrama isn't constructive.

If you disagree, state your counter point, and skip the crybaby crap, because it doesn't help the person who started this thread.
 
I Have to say this,If the e-mail is true where Randy stated that he has kept Chameleons and is getting more. This kid truly needs to stop!!!! If you can't keep a Leopard Gecko 100% then you sure as hell DO NOT NEED TO TRY ANYTHING WITH A CHAMELEON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dammit this really pisses me off!!! I can't stand seeing anyone kill any animal but when they start in on Chameleons and you know they are going to have problems it makes me want to SCREAM!!!  Randy please accept everyones advice on please PLEASE READ!!!! READ!!! and READ AGAIN!!!
 
if you are following this post ask mother geckos to send or post the email i sent them i thought i was posting somthing an i sent an email instead
 
Ok well I recieved this e mail from Randy today.  I belive he is sincere about trying to bring these geckos back to health so ill cut and paste his reponse to the 9 questions about his husbandry.  Now first of Id like to say im sure it wasnt easy for him to list all this out for the world to see so its obvious he's trying.   here it is........................................................................................
...............................................................................i have a 4ft buy 16 or 17 inchs witch is a hand made tank out of wood and i think a chicken wire type matirial
it has play sand about an inch high and then another inch is completly made up of t rex calci sand the glow model
there is always fresh water available durning the summer when i am home alot i change it in the morning and at night
basicly when i wake up and i go to bed
i always have a dish or bowel or caliy supliment powder with meal worms in it cause i havent ever seen them tak any unless a moving object is in it
they are fed meal worms every day untill they stop eacting and when the container runs out i go get more
i never feed them un calci coated food
i feed them wax worms (or attempt) every day but they dont always want them
and the occasional pinky mouse is injoyed by them
they have a coral rock cuory that they hid amonkst   (cannot spell that word) and a cool wip container with extreamly moist and is misted every time i see it doesnt have condensation on the sides
and i am going to add moss to it
also i was advised to feed crickets and they get out of my cages so i am filling a 10 gallon with calci carb and using it to feed crikets

my babys are in a 10 or 15 long wood quarium
they have 2 humid hides and a gloin the dark hamster tube i had lying in the packedge in my room that i disided to use
they also have a food dish with supliment only smaller and the same water condishions
and feeding
only smaller stuff
they are kept in the heat of 87 on the wot side and aroung 80 on the coled side during the day
now at night i couldnt tell you cause i cannot see the thermomider in the dark

any thing else
also wut is photo period?
..........................................................................................
...............................................................................As you can see he has put some time and effor into answering these questions wether his spelling is good or not doesnt matter.  
So lets address the problems where they lie.
First off Randy you need to do the following..........................MOST IMPORTANTLY...DO NOT GET ANY MORE ANIMALS!  This means no Chameleons!  Why I say this is because you need to put all your time, money, and efforts into saving these Leopards at hand.  Before we address the questions 1-9 lets get the health issues fixed by important to least.  First off did you take the advice of everyone about the excess shed?  Soak your gecko in a tupperware with about a 1/8 of an ich of warm water and let it soak for a coupla hours then try to remove the excess shed CAREFULLY if not you could remove digits and possible hurt the gecko more.  I also noticed the lost tails seems like they could use a bit of help to.  Rub a dab of triple antibiotic gel like neosporin on the stubs to keep it from getting infected.  KEep feeding them as much as they will eat DAILY!  Now lets go throught the 9 questions.  

1.  You need to seperate all your geckos individually!  No pairing up or groups at this point or you could be causeing unnessacy stress, too much competiton for food, and if you have parasites i your colonies it will only spread if they are not kept apart.  Go to the l;oacl dollar store and get some $1 pieces of sterilite and place one gecko in each.

2.  Check the snad out, calcium sand or play sand lose it NOW!  while your at the dollar store buy some paper towels and lay some of that down for substrate.  That way its easy to examine the fecal matter of each individual gecko and easier to clean WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT.

3.  Sounds like you got the fresh water thing down, but make sure to sterilize the water bowl everyday.

4.  its good you have supplement availible all the time as it is nessacary and a component a lot of people skip which you shouldnt.

5.  Feeding everyday is a must at this point.  Lay off the wax worms so much as they contain a ton of fat and your geckos need protien right now more so than empty calories.  Wax worms should be used as a treat maybe once a week.  Try using crickets as they are more nutrtitious and more mobile than mealis so you may get a better feeding response from your geckos.  Gut load those crickets 12 hours before you feed them to your geckos with fresh veggies like greens or carrot and even some wheat or bran cereal you hvae in the cupboard as long as its not sugar coated.  Do not leave excess crickets in the tank if they are uneate or they WILL stress out he geckos by crawling all over them and even chewing on them.

6.  I didnt notice what or how much you clean in your answers and this is THE MOST MPORTANT FACTOR RIGHT NOW.  You must clean and sanitize everything dailyand everytime a gecko defacates as to not spread more possible parasites in your animals

I will finish the other 3 answers in a while as i have to go at the time but dont worry I will be right back on it in a few hours......Mike
 
i soaked my leos each for about 15 minuts
i dont have any where to seporat them but i can asure you they have no compitition for food as they eat by hand and i also have started puting them in a 10 gallon with calci carb to eat crickets alone when one stopes eating i change geckos there are only one in there at a time so i dont think there can be any compititon other then the crikets haveing a comitition to run from the gecko

i clean the geckos cage where they release fecle matter every time i see it

is this good
 
Randy to be honest at this point they need to be isolated from each other for at least 2-3 months minimum.  Even if they are getting plenty of food, just from contact with others parasites can be passed.  Also GET RID OF THE SAND.  Use paper towel for now you dont need any othr problems right now.  You need to realize the severity of the situation and your animals.  If the proper measures arn't taken seriously they will die and transfer disease to every other animal in your collection possibly.  Now for the rest of the numbers

7.  You said you have hide spots and a moist area, are they big enough for all the geckos?  They still need to be seperated and isolated from each other with thier own personal hide box.

8.  I didnt see your answer for temperatures which are VERY IMPORTANT

9.  Photoperiod is the amount of light to darkness they recieve.  Leopards like many geckos don't need UVB or natural sun rays, but do require a photoperiod so there is a distinguished day and night.  12 on 12 off would be best for your geckos in rehab.

Answer the rest as you can and make the changes as soon as you can.    Mike
 
By the way for your answer on number 1.  Wood is a very bad choice for an enclosure right now.  It is too absorbant and wont clean well enough like glass or plastic.  Go to the dollar store and get some sterilite or rubbermaid boxes and poke holes in em and place a single gecko in each one with a hide dry and moist, a dish of supplement, fresh water and paper towel as substrate.  This will make is easier to clean daily.... Mike
 
there is 12 hours light an 12 dark
they are in high 80s at day
and low 80s at night
the hid fits all the geckos in it at once
 
Randy,  If you dont seperate your geckos there is nothing I can really do to help.  I cant stress the importance of this.  Also get rid of the sand!  Have you ever heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".  You have all my knowledge about Leopards (even though im not an expert) availible to you at anytime but it's up to you to do the work.  What I STRRONGLY suggest doing is calling around to your local VETs and see what they charge for a fecal exam.  It should be anywhere form $8-$15 per animal maybe less if you ask about quantity discount.  This will help determine what kind of parasites your geckos have if they do.  Let me know what it's gonna cost and maybe I can help you out with the money, but I wont do this unless you as a horse decide to drink!  That means take this advice and apply it.  Save those animals!   Mike
 
WOW,that is one hell of an offer Mike!!good to see people still care about the herps!!i hope this kid takes all of your advice.good luck.Jason Kiper
 
1st thing is i am the horse an u are takeing me to water and im tryin desper8ly to drink
(im not typing things out cause i have been back an forth with people posts and care sheets and i am tiered of the computer screen)
and i will definatly find a exotics vet but u live in fl right mike
i do to wut vet do u use?
 
Randy,  Unfoutunatly my VET wont help you as even though you are in Florida we are a many miles apart so it wouldnt be feasible.  Im sure in your area there will be a compentent VET whom can help.  Go through your yellow pages in the area and call them all and ask if any of them have experiance with Leopards.  Find out whats its gonna cost and we'll get it figured out.  If you were closer I would come over and show you step by step but I cant.  So tkae what you can from what ii'm trying to convey.  I respect the fact that you are trying to help these animals but stop typing for a minute and go clean again!   As for your question just get sterilite or rubbermaid boxes and put a individual geck in each you definely dont need a rack system yet.    Mike
 
What supplement are you using?  I am sure that some people with more experience can correct me if I am wrong, but everything I have read indicates you should supplement every other feeding and not every feeding.  This is due to vitamin D toxicity.  If your calcium powder does not have vitamin D I suppose this will not be a problem, but I believe too much calcium is not great either.  I will go look it up when I get a chance.
 
Mike A thanks for your input, you are very observant.  You are very right about only using calcium supplement every other feeding and that's exactly how its worded in my caresheet I gave Randy to read.  But at this point I really thought it might be better to get a little more in this time of distress on his animals in case they were lacking as I believe by talking to him its vey probable they arn't recieving the proper diet.  Any input or advice is well need in this situation so please continue to help as much as you can....Mike
 
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