Tim Rainwater: anyone had any dealings with him?

[GOLDENSERPENT]

Deleted - anonymous posting using another person's account.

 

[WebSlave]

Firstly, "Jeff", this account is registered to Jewell Howard, but you are apparently signing your name as "Jeff". This makes ALL of your posts within this thread as being in violation of the rules.

Unless you identify yourself FULLY and give a real good reason why you are using someone else's account to post here, you can expect all of your messages to be deleted shortly.

 

[Bobby Douglass]

Does anyone know of a person that Tim used to partner with by the first name of Riley?

 

[Ken Foose]

First and formost, I guess I should just come out and tell why I asked for the information on Rainwater. Tim and I are not friends by any means, and I was contacted by another site to ask if I could locate any people that Tim had ripped off that was currently still in the "business". My first post was an attempt to find such people. I never succeded. However, as I posted later, Rainwater has been denied an account anyway, for past actions. Chalk one up for the goodguys. Now, as far as Rainwater partners and Vegas rip offs, let's clear a few things up. I was once a partner with Rainwater. It took only a few months for me to understand that Tim was a con man, a rip off, and we parted under rather harsh conditions. My reputation in the herp community speaks for itself, and it does not matter that I live in Las Vegas or Topeka, my reputation in this business is sound, and I stand behind it. There are actually others here in Vegas that also have an outstanding reputation, Captive Bred Exellence being one of them. As Tad stated, he has been in this business a long time, and has a great, if not perfect track record for honesty and customer service. Rich from Bloodlines is another great one, and a better source of ball python morphs you will not find anywhere. That's just three examples of good people to do business with in this town. I'm sure there are others. I am also sure that there are people here that will rip you off without hesitation, such as Rainwater, and at least one other that I know of. As far as policing these people, that's hard to do. First off, we have never been ripped off by them, because we just know better. And it's very hard to find people who have been ripped off. I posted the first post on this thread a long time ago, and finally, just today, someone comes forward to say they were ripped off. About time! So, where are all the rest of them? I'm not trying to be harsh, just realistic. I am happy someone has finally come forward, and I'm very sorry for all the people that got ripped off by Tim and his parade of partners. By the way, most of his partners were ripped off by Tim also. I don't recall anyone named Riley. I do recall Vance (ripped off really good by Tim), and a fellow I can't recall his name at the moment, but had a company called Legal Addictions, which was basically an outlet for Tim after his name was mud. And I remember Golden Geckos sign in Daytona about how Rainwater ripped them off. And I recall all the people "looking" for Tim there, and beating thier chests and talking about getting even. Nothing came of it. All talk. My advice is to do something about it. Get even. File charges. Or you can just sit back and let him do it to the next guy. As far as comparing we honest Vegas folks to Tim, not even close. Check us out, use the BIO, that's what it's here for. I welcome anyone to check out my history, or Tad, or Rich. Please don't lump us all together. There are some people in Vegas you can still get a winning bet with (I had to do that). Take care

 

[pcsmicro]

Equate Rainwater with Las Vegas ?

Anytime there is a boomtown such as Las Vegas with the explosive growth, oppurtunity etc. The scam, con artists etc. will always flock to these cities as right along with the honest folks, in order to take advantage of the unknowing. When one goes fishing they tend to pick a fishing hole with lots of fish . LOL
Ken and I do business on a fairly regular basis. And do so with several other Las Vegas residents.
I was scammed by somebody in NY awhile back on a laptop purchase - wired money and the guy disappeared. yet I have both bought and sold numerous herps. to and from NY, and have a very good friend and Reptile partner whom resides in NY, and one in NJ etc. to lump an entire city of approx. 2 million makes no sense at all. **just my 2 cents**

 

[nephrurus]

I traded Tim Rainwater a male Nephrurus levis for 4 of his "het" leopard geckos. I only bred them once before I sold them and both babies were normal.

Does that count as being ripped off?

Jeff Byers

 

[heiser]

You don't have enough info to know if you had "fake" hets. Two hatchlings is not enough to determine. In one case, 300 babies from het to albino produced all normals. That's evidence. Het to het only gets you a 25% chance (not a guarantee). If you had 10 normal with no albinos, I would still say you didn't have enough evidence. If you got to 30 normal and 0 albino then I'd say yes you were ripped. Did the person you sold then to get any albinos?

I also think your chance of real hets was better. Since you traded one male levis ($1000 value at the time?) for 4 hets, you were getting them late in the game. Not every het RW sold were fake, later RW bought and resold hets that were real hets. BTW, he killed the original male.

 

[nephrurus]

Thats kindof what i figured, and the reason i didn't make an issue of it.

I have not spoken with the person I sold the "hets" to.

The N. levis was valued at around $400 at the time. This deal went down at the last Daytona show Tim attended, because he was trying to sell me on the "buy now, get an albino later" program.

just my dealings with him, nothing serious, just thought i'd chime in.

Jeff Byers

 

[Ken Foose]

John, not only did Rainwater kill Max, his original male albino, but the way that he died is the worst part. He was found dead, sitting in his cage. Cause of death: no water. Kind of a shame. Keep in mind of course, Tim NEVER produced this animal, it was an import, and all the tales of him breeding the first albino leopard gecko are lies. But Max was a very cool lizard, and Tim paid well over $6,000 to honor him by making him into a sign. A waste of money if you ask me. I was lucky enough to purchase Max (the sign) from a junk dealer for $50 after Rainwater was evicted from his place of business for failure to pay rent. So, in a way, Max still lives on, with a bit of a modification. I think he looks just dandy.

 

[heiser]

It's funny, at the end of his escapades, Tim was selling "Rainwater" albinos and hets that he purchased from other breeders. He is not one of the top "vegas" albino producers, not even close. I had heard that he got Max from an imported lot, do you know how much he paid? (curiosity) But I do like your sign, both as a sign and a symbol (of Tim's failure).

Nephrurus above likely got real hets as he was late in the game (4 hets for $400 is very late in the game) and Tim was re-selling other peoples offspring (of course represented as his own). That was about the time he started taking pre-orders on credit cards for blizzard hets, some boas, and a few other snakes. He was pretty sauvy about the scam, he promised delivery in six months. He said that's when the breeding/hatching would occur and the timing was consistent with normal breeding patterns. But the real important part of the 6 month period was due to his taking credit card orders, after 6 months you can't dispute the charge (not even for non-delivery). The credit card companies would have haunted him forever and prosecuted. Everyone else just took it on the chin, most were $100 to $200 purchases and not worth the bother. But as I said earlier, he did rip a few people to the tune of $1000's and I would not want to be him if he meets some of them in a dark alley. (heck, I won't want to meet some of them in a dark alley if I were their friends, lol). [I would also not like to be Tim with so many people willing to call him a sh*thead to his face.]

Personally, no big deal to me ($135), but I would like to meet him. He may not realize it, but he did rip a few kids (teenagers) that pre-ordered het blizzards from a kingsnake ad using mom or dad's credit card (with permission). They then had a hard time convincing mom and dad that the hobby is legit. I see this as Tim's biggest damage, eroding public confidence. The reptile market is growing into a mainstream business. Reptiles are the fastest growing pet segment in the world.

From now on, if anyone asks me about a vegas dealer I will pass on your name (even though you were partners with Tim, lol. Although honestly, I do feel sorry for you having to overcome that handicap). Hopefully, if they are not dealing with you directly you can give them a heads up on the reputation/dependability of the dealer. I will no longer out-of-pocket poo-poo vegas but will contiune to say "caveat emptor" unless they get references (such as from yourself).

I will still caution you and your fellow vegas dealers that if Tim resurfaces in vegas he can do wholesale damage to your business and you should do your best to warn the unknowing. He got away with a lot in the past because people were not vocal enough. After the fact, many people said to me "Oh yeah, Tim's a real !@#$%, I knew that". Well if you see an ad that you know is associated with him, put the word out and hopefully in the same forum he uses and it wouldn't hurt to alert the local "bunko" squad (some of ads seem like pyramid schemes). We have had disreputable dealers here in NY (I know you find that very hard to believe) and we try to pass the word through local herp clubs, if it involves wc or poor care (like letting Max dehydrate and die) report them to the DEC or ASPCA (in NY they are a law enforcement agency) and point them out to show promoters so that hopefully, they get kicked out of the show (that's real important as shows are where a lot of newbie reptile keepers come first).
cs or way overpriced to tourists (do not buy that camera, no matter how cheap). It has expanded to some fly-by-night computer companies. No, not all NY elect

BTW, DO NOT play three card monty when you visit here in NY, it only looks like fun. And DO NOT cash the winning lotto ticket for the illegal immigrant who can't cash it for fear of being deported, no matter how big a split he/she offers ; )

 

[Ken Foose]

The het blizzard tale is one in itself worth telling. I was in Daytona doing some buying. Bob Clark, Rich Ihle and myself were wandering around the building on Friday night, right before the close of setup. As we meandered about, we noticed Rainwaters booth. He had some very nice young high yellow leopard geckos for sale in a big plastic tub, maked as they should be. Very pretty animals. We also took note of Jay Brewers blizzard lizards, as this was the first time the three of us had seen them. The next morning, before openning, Rich rushed up to me, and said "you gotta see this". He took me to Rainwaters booth, and low and behold, the sign on the geckos had changed. Sitting next to them was an adult blizzard that Tim had bought from Jay. The geckos in the bin were now marked het for blizzard, with a jacked up price, and there was another sign that indicated that the adult male blizzard was the father. Rich told me he was amazed that geckos could become het by just sitting next to an adult animal. This was a slap in the face to anyone working with these animals, and just another example of Rainwaters balls for trying to pull something like this off in front of the whole herp community. I don't know how many hets he sold that weekend.

 

[heiser]

Thanks for that story. It's appearing to be very "Typical Tim". I can only blame myself, I didn't do any homework. It was only $135 so I didn't "waste" the time. Tims reputation didn't travel as fast as it should have.

One of the real funny things is Tim could have produced the hets with very little effort and made legit money. The prices he was charging were not super low (at the time I was involved). With the one male he bought he could have easily produced 200 hets and with little overhead (assumes 20 cheap normal females). Even without doing a thing he could have shipped the hets and made a little money. By the time the hets were due to be shipped the prices had dropped (they were and are not as popular as predicted). He could have bought hundred lot quantities well below his selling price and shipped them to the customers instead of ripping them off.

 

[Captive Bred Excellence]

Ken,

I had heard that Tims albino had died a while after his business crumbled, but didn't know it was caused from no water! That's sad especially knowing how long that would take with a leo.

Some final thoughts regarding my experiance with Tim. Sometime in the early-mid ninties (getting old bad memory) before Tim started his business he and his wife visited our home and purchased some leo's. I thought they were a nice couple and wished them well. My wife however had made it a point to tell me she had a bad feeling about Tim that he seemed like a con artist. Over the years I have learned to listen to her as she rarely has something bad to say about anyone and when she does she's usually right.

Over the next several years Tim's business took off and was the talk of the town. I have to admit I was a bit envious as he seemed to go from 0-100 in a short period of time. I just continued to slowly plug away at our business and for the most part avoided Tim. The first problem I became aware of was when a co-worker of mine desolved a partnership with Tim and lost several thousand dollars. At that point when someone asked about him I told them to avoid him. Not sure if the BOI was around then, but if it was I wasn't aware of it. The next thing I recall was receiving calls from breeders/dealers he had ripped off asking if I knew his where a bouts.

At that point if I would have been aware of the BOI (if it was available then) I certainly would have warned people. It's upsetting to think of the effect one jerk can have on a local industry. Fortunately my wife and I don't need the income generated from our reptile business to survive but I know Ken does. Rest assured if Tim resurfaces and I'm aware of it the BOI will know.

Tad Fitzgerald

 

[Seamus Haley]

Something to remember here is that Tim had many MANY partners or business associates or financial backers at one point, the vast majority of whom were and are upstanding and honest individuals.

The herp community had never seen a large scale operation misrepresenting the genetics of literally thousands of animals... It was a punch in the stomach to the industry, one that came quickly and unexpectedly. Tim had been honest and reliable and even likeable up until a point, his motives for doing so are now somewhat suspect but he was credible enough for long enough to get the support of some of the best people in the industry. If a poll were taken that asked nationwide who had been a "partner" or an "investor" for Tim in the past, the numbers would be astronomical... Heck, just the numbers from the Vegas herp society would be enormous... Not just because Tim was slick (and he was and is) but because he was slick enough to keep his intentions hidden (or maybe started out honest and went bad).

Point being though... people who have been, to some degree at some point, associated with Tim are certainly not bad guys by default. Nor are they stupid individuals... Tim is way above the caliber of your social security check theiving Nigerian email scammer and it took a long time for him to be found out the way he should have (partially because he was showing up in magazines constantly as being some amazing contributor to the hobby).

Oh yeah... one other thing... Lots of people make the dark alley type of comments or claim they personally will do him physical harm if they ever "find out where he is" It's known where he is though. He's not going anywhere. Vegas is possibly the cheapest place on the planet to fly to. A lot of people lost a lot of money but clearly nobody is unreasonable enough to go hunt him down and hurt him physically, or it would be done already.

 

[Ken Foose]

My partnership with Rainwater only lasted about 6 months or so. I was busy building Exotic Pets, and had no time for a wholesale business that he proposed. But he kept on and on, and finally I agreed to go in with him on the project. He was to run the day to day operations, I would use my contacts to get stock and customers. He drew a salary every week, I took my meager share in animals for my store. We needed some working capital, so I had my best friend invest about $15,000 into the project. We quickly aquired the entire Petsmart account, and literally supplied every herp to every Petsmart in the country. Animals were rolling in and out fast, on a daily basis. I sent some of my key staff from my store to work with Tim to run the place. The place just fell apart. Tim ran us in debt like there was no tomorrow. Checks were bounced, suppliers were stiffed, and the quality of animals went down hill. I was still busy with my own business, and had little time to check on the day to day business of Glitter Gultch Herps. Tim resented the fact that I had no time to help him, but he knew that going into the business arrangement. Eventually he accused me of taking more out of the business then I deserved. Keep in mind, I took only animals, and kept track of every penny. Anyway, Tim and I finally got fed up with each others way of doing business and Tim requested that I leave. I had no problem with that at all. However, I had a funny feeling about things, so I had a look around one night. He had already changed the locks (I was still his partner), and had all his business dealings on a computer that he knew I did not know how to operate. So, I got a locksmith to open the door, and had a computer expert open all the files. Turns out that he had been ripping me off from day one, for a total of about $10,000. The trick was an easy one. He would buy from, let's say LA Reptile. He would order a bunch of stuff for the business, and a few things for himself. Savu pythons for $600 each, a bunch of them, and other animals. These he would take home, and sell them from there under the name Rainwater Reptiles. We had both signed a non-competion agreement when we became parteners, and yet almost right off he started cheating on me. Needless to say, I took offense to this. I eventually gave him two choices, buy me out, or take a walk. There was a third choice, and that was to be arrested on the spot. He chose to buy me out, and I took all my share in animals over time. That's the story of my partnership with Tim.
Tad, I found about the death of the gecko from the same co-worker/former partner of Tims that you mentioned. I always have had respect for him, and I would never blame him for Tims offenses. I am sorry to hear he lost so much money. All I can say is this: stay away from Rainwater. Don't give him money, do not sell him anything without being paid up front, and, just to clarify, the best business partner is yourself. Being solo is the only way to go.

 

[Clint Boyer]

My dealings with Tim....

I bought 1.2 Tangerine Loes from Tim for $300 ea. I ended up with 3.0 not even high yellows. Tim blew me off and I never heard from him again.

I posted this as one of the very first posts on the original BOI.

 

[evansnakes]

Tim never screwed me over. He tried to sell me some $100 snakes for $1000+ telling me how rare they were, but I know better and I just laughed and turned them down. He has really taken some people for rides selling animals as het for traits that later turned out not to be. He also was at the expo one year selling a bunch of animals that were identical to ones he had said were stolen from his shop and that he was filing insurance claims on. Back then they were scarce enough to have made the chance for that being a coincidence extremely small if not impossible. I know a couple people that bought albino retics from him that year when only Bob Clark and he had them at the expo and Tim sold them for half what Bob was asking. Why would you do that if nothing was amiss? Did not make much sense and they sold quick as did the ones priced double that.