To Jump or Not To Jump

[Boavoyage]

John, it's the "newbies" that buy our snakes.

Agree. So don't deceive them by telling that everything is het for something. Provide them with info., fact, proof. Don't tell them that everything is their responsibility. Take some responsibility, talk with them, educate them,not criticize them, point finger. Since you are the Secretary of the Florida Herpetological Society, you should know better.

Now go stick a probe up your snake's ass!

Man! Don't want to start a war, and wasting bandwith from the Webslave, but which probe do you want me to use? The one that is up your ass???

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, I have heard of pastel ball pythons and I have heard of Pastel Jungle ball pythons. I did not know that the two terms were being used synomimously (sic).

John, where do you get the impression that I tell people lies???
I think you're a little pissed at me for some threads where I disagreed w/ you, but that's no reason to call someone a liar. As far as educating customers, I guarantee you I talk more people out of buying animals than I do into them. Or talk them into something else. Education is what I'm trying to do here.

Don't tell them that everything is their responsibility

Everything is thier responsibilty! Once that animal leaves my hand, I can't take care of it anymore. They must. So the sooner we get it through people's heads that they'd better know what they are doing BEFORE they purchase the animal, the better off we'll all be, right?

 

[Python Dreams]

Brian,
Your ignorance shines through non-stop. You say you did not know Pastel was a term used for the morph, but early on you sold a wannabe Pastel. Was it just trying to look Pastel in coloration? You say that you didnt know that Pastel was being used as Pastel Jungle Ball Python, but when we tell you, you argue about it. We show you proof of accomplished breeders, but your way more knowledgeable about Ball Pythons then they are. Hell, youve sold a bunch of captive hatched Ball's at the shows, I think that entitiles you to be considered an expert. Before you start arguing what I've done, remember I'm only going with what I've read from the experts. I personally dont try and learn what is at the cutting edge of whatever industry by polling other people. Why dont you go and take a poll of people that actually work with the morphs or some of the big breeders. Ohhhh.... Who would want their opinion? You would rather poll a bunch of kids, or moms, or some reptile enthusisast (more than possible not working with ball's beyond pets). Start talking about confusion among traits. Your the only one that is confused. You want to go ask people who dont know instead of asking experts in the feild. Maybe all the experts should start calling you and asking for your advice since you know more and have alot more to teach them, then to actually respect what they have done. Your the self-proclaimed protect your industry from me guy.... I will try and figure a way to downplay your industy. After all look at Corn's and Boas..... Im going to poll a bunch of hair-stylists on how I should rebuild my engine on my truck.. Although they are not experts, I think that is where I want to get my advice.
Also, dont get mad at how I respond about the locality topic cause just like normal, you pulled out half a quote instead of reading the whole thing. I responded to my whole sentence being responded to. No need for confusion their either, but you like it that way. When you quote someone write down their whole sentence so you dont confuse yourself.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[dwedeking]

Tom,

You have built the basis that the term "pastel" is equivelent to "Pastel Jungle" as an industry standard on the fact that the top 10% of the group think so. Brian's contention is that the bottom 90% do not contain that knowledge and they drive the industry thereby making it not an industry standard. Your basic disagreement is on what makes it an industry standard.

For what it's worth, this is common in most industries. I do work in search engine optimization for companies. The terms the owners of companies think their customers will use to find them rarely are the terms that their customers type in to find them.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Let's be constructive!

Why not use this thread to illustrate the proven ball python mutations up to date? In the page below you will find the morphs proven to date, who proved them and when. This might be useful information for those not aware of the names already in use if you are thinking on making up your own.

http://www.grazianireptiles.com/Mutations.htm

Regards.

 

[Seamus Haley]

You have built the basis that the term "pastel" is equivelent to "Pastel Jungle" as an industry standard on the fact that the top 10% of the group think so. Brian's contention is that the bottom 90% do not contain that knowledge and they drive the industry thereby making it not an industry standard. Your basic disagreement is on what makes it an industry standard.

A disagreement that I doubt will be resolved in anything resmbling a polite manner... This isn't one of those conversations where it's worth risking warning points in order to express yourself, lets keep it above the belt and see if debate can sort this out a bit...

The disagreement does center around what constitutes a standard, what consitutes a definition for a morph (non-pigment related terms) and who is responsible for deciding these things...

Perhaps only 10% of people would be able to identify a pastel jungle if they were to see a picture.

Of course, only maybe 20-25% can even give you the nomenclature... and "Python regius" isn't that hard to remember. So why isn't the nomenclature being challenged as "elite information" and being called subjective?

The majority of the people interested in purchasing your animals might not know a pastel from a piebald from a tree monitor... BUT, does this make it right to allow the potential for misinformation to form in their minds? Or should they then be taken from their state of innocent ignorance and educated or instructed in what the more involved and knowledgable herpers consider to be the case?

Ignorance only lasts when the information becomes muddled, when the naive consumer is not presented with accurate information...

"pastel" No capitalization, no jungle or blonde or anything else behind it... is reccognized by the people who proved out the genetics as being synonymous with the full term... the same way "GTP" is reccognized as being green tree pythons, Morelia viridis, Chondropython viridis or just plain old "chondro" it might be considered slang... or a casual euphamism or... whatever you want to call it, but the term is used in casual conversation to indicate the full morph.

Brian has commented about the poor quality of labeling from breeder to breeder for corn morphs, he seemed to put this situation in a negative light... I mean, it's bad that genetically proven morphs have eight different names and each name is used by different people to indicate different animals...

So why do anything that might encourage a similar situation with another species?

Brian has not yet sold this animal, he merely expressed a slight intent to label some of his light ball pythons as "pastels" and sell them for around $200... If he gets 'em feeding, they'd sell for around $200 to people interested as pets without the "pastel" label anyway (Or so he contends... and I don't doubt he could do it, although those who "know better" would never go near the animals)...

So if the label isn't being used to deccieve customers...

And the label does introduce a negative possibility of confusion...

And the animals would sell for the stated intended amount anyway...

Why bother using it?

 

[bpc]

Why bother using it?

Because Seamus, I can't think of a better term to describe this animal. Remember, I'm the only one who has seen it in person, and "high-gold" or "light normal" isn't gonna do it. I have high golds and light normals, this animals blows them away. When I look at this animal The only word that comes to mind is pastel.

the same way "GTP" is reccognized as being green tree pythons, Morelia viridis, Chondropython viridis or just plain old "chondro" it might be considered slang... or a casual euphamism or... whatever you want to call it, but the term is used in casual conversation to indicate the full morph

GTP etc. is the common name of the snake, not the name of the morph. A morph would be something like a blue phase GTP. Common names vary greatly from place to place, that's one reason binomial nonmenclature is so important to individuals who identify species. It's not important to the general public (as you stated) because many of them don't even know the common names.

Scientific names are a good example of why you should really stick to the term "Pastel Jungle" as the name of the morph. It is gives more info. If I say Pythons are docile snakes, many people would disagree w/ that. If I say Python regius, or ball pythons are docile snakes, fewer people would have a problem with it. If I say my ball python that I've had for two years is very docile, almost noone could disagree with me.

Tom, I can't make you see my point. I've tried everything. Sadly, you strike me as the type of person who will someday walk away from this hobby shaking his head, and wondering why everyone in it is such an idiot. Tom, I know now what YOU mean when you say pastel. I'm glad that you and the other "big breeders" and "experts" all agree. But, I'll ask you one last question, what are you going to do when it's time to deal with the rest of the public. When these snakes drop below the $400-500 level and "regular people" start asking you questions. They don't know this stuff, I promise you that. I'm out there with them almost every other weekend.

Many of them walk up to the table not even knowing what these snakes eat, yet determined to buy one that day. You've got about 3 minutes to explain what you must and find the right animal for them, before they walk down the aisle and buy one from the guy telling them the snake won't get any bigger than the tank they put it in. I use my 3 minutes to try and make sure the animal (and the customer) gets the best shot possible, not telling them how important my bloodlines are and why they're an idiot for not knowing everything I do.

 

[The BoidSmith]

It can be done!

The ad below posted this week is an excellent example of how to handle this situation. The seller demonstrates care in how he advertises the animal, but nevertheless leaving the door open for the possibilty that the characteristics of his animal might be transmitted to the offspring. By doing so he also shows respect for those trying to better understand ball python genetics, while at the same time trying to get a better price for his animal.

Regards.

Reduced Pattern "Pastel-Looking" Yellow Male
Florida
Posted by "XXXX" (Contact Me!) on May 16, 2003 at 12:07:32

Click on thumbnails to view fullsize in a new window

No, I am not claiming this to be a true pastel, He is however a stunning Yellow snake, and will make a great pet or addition to your collection. He has fed once on a frozen thawed mouse, and is ready to ship.
If he does prove out to be anything other than a really nice high yellow reduced pattern Ball.......
Priced to move at 200.00 shipped via UPS next day air
pay pal or money orders in advance of shipping accepted
Thanks

 

[NEWReptiles]

After seeing the "red balls"

I feel that people should jump.

The sad thing is the damn things appear to be sold too.
Poor buyer.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Some breedres in the forum took it really personal, and I don't blame them.

Posted by: Markus Jayne at Sat May 24 07:19:54 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

You sir are an absolute insult to the ball python industry!!! Go back to kindergarden...get you crayons out and start to learn how to color again!

YOU THOUGHT IT WAS A PASTEL????

How can you speculate? It is or it isn't a Pastel!!! Have you ever seen a real live pastel? Have you ever hatched any out? Do your homework man!!! Figure out what your talking about before you embarass yourself again. Better yet...just go away!!!

MJ

ps. YOUR DAMN RIGHT I'M PISSED OFF!!!!

 

[NEWReptiles]

You sir are an absolute insult to the ball python industry!!! Go back to kindergarden...get you crayons out and start to learn how to color again!

Hey Alvaro, this was directed to Brian?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Al,

That was Markus Jayne's reply in the KS ball python forum to the guy that sold the Pastel claiming "he thought it was a Pastel" (the same guy of the red ball pythons). Breeders that have invested time, effort, and hard earned money in determining the genetics of these traits seem to be quite passionate about their "profession", and I don't blame them.

Regards.

 

[NEWReptiles]

Ahhh, its good to see Covington get slammed, and nice to see that everybody got to see their shananagins.

 

[bpc]

Darn I missed it!

What did he sell his "pastel" for?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Brian,

He was asking $1,000 and claiming it was from his own line of "Pastels" (in the ad). A few hours later it was sold. Then he started saying that in reality he sold it for $75 because someone had told him that was not a Pastel. We still have to hear from the buyer though. The same week he posted two "red" ball pythons. After too mush pressure from "every corner" of the herp community he apparently recognized to Evan (we haven't seen a copy of the e-mail yet) that it was a hoax. The bids at that point were $15,000. It seems as if we can't be careful enough these days!

Regards.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro Thanks.

I found the thread on the BOI about it, but thanks anyway. Funny thing is, even if this guy is a fraud (which is pretty evident), he does help sell my point. People buy/bid/shop based on phenotype. The "pastel" he sold attracted a buyer w/ $1000. I didn't see it so I can't comment on it. I did see the "reds" and we think he got bids in the 15K range on those two. We know he got bids in the $200-300 dollar range because there are people admitting to that in the thread. Those $200-300 bids prove my point that people shop for phenotypes. Why? Because no one had even seen a "red" ball python before, so the genetics could not have been proven. In fact, I think at one point this guy even said the genetics were not proven, and people continued to bid. So they were bidding based on looks, not on bloodlines or proven genes.

 

[The BoidSmith]

In fact, I think at one point this guy even said the genetics were not proven, and people continued to bid. So they were bidding based on looks, not on bloodlines or proven genes.

Brian,

If two sibbling ball pythons out of a clutch of let's say 8 are entirely black, I would bet all my chips that the trait is genetic. That's why people were so enthus about it. The odds for it being genetic were astronomically high (if we dismiss the possibility of the existence of "gatorade" alleles obviously!).

Regards.

 

[bpc]

I get ya, if there was only one the bidding wouldn't have gone so high (according to your theory). I still think even if there were only one (and it was real) it would have gone for more than a regular baby sitting next to it.

Once, about 8 years ago, when I first started breeding snakes on my own, think it was my second year breeding burms, I produced a turquoise colored albino burm. This snake was the most out-freakin-ragous thing you'd ever see. I had no idea what caused it, but there was one other snake in the clutch that had a little of it going on also. So I (like you) thought, cool it's genetic and I'm rich! I was even happier a few days later when the snake shed and the color stayed! I was REALLY FREAKING SAD 2 days after that when both snakes died! But then I started thinking about what had caused it and I realized that the entire clutch had hatched. Even the two eggs that had this blue/green mold on them. So I figured that the color had come form the mold that had infected the eggs. I wish I had taken a picture of this snake it was incredible (I was already shopping for swimming pools). But I really don't think it was genetic.

My point is, even if it wasn't, it still would have sold for way more than a normal albino burm. Hell, I'm a cheap son-of-a-biatch and I would've paid a ton for it. Phenotype matters - in fact I think phenotype matters to more buyers than genotype. Gatoraide doesn't matter unless you're really thirsty or you're the one who bid 15k and you've already mailed the check.

Did anyone else find that post about how "awful a thing that was to do to the animals" hilarious! I about fell out of my chair. Soaking in Gatoraide and Pedialyte are probably some of the best things you can do for dehydrated animals. Please don't take this wrong whoever made that post, but it shows how little people really know about the "ball python industry."

 

[Seamus Haley]

Those $200-300 bids prove my point that people shop for phenotypes. Why? Because no one had even seen a "red" ball python before, so the genetics could not have been proven. In fact, I think at one point this guy even said the genetics were not proven, and people continued to bid. So they were bidding based on looks, not on bloodlines or proven genes.

This isn't the same as your situation though Brian... He wasn't using a name that is widely accepted as indicating a morph which has been proven to be genetic.

If someone else already had genetically proven "Red Balls" and the morph could be pinpointed as being proven and by who and what the cause for the appearance is... Then he would be doing something similar to what you proposed with the Pastel term.

When a nicknamed phenotype is associated with a particular genotype, it becomes deceptive bordering on fraudulent to use the term for animals of an unknown or unproven genotype, no matter how similar the outward appearance.

 

[bpc]

When a nicknamed phenotype is associated with a particular genotype, it becomes deceptive bordering on fraudulent to use the term for animals of an unknown or unproven genotype, no matter how similar the outward appearance.

Only if the person using the "nickname" knows what they are doing, AND the "nickname" is specific enough a term that it can not be used to denote anything else.

There's a post on the BOI right now from someone asking about "pastels." One of the first things anyone did was to CLARIFY WHAT/WHICH "PASTEL" they were talking about. Even I, after being part of this huge discussion, wasn't sure if he was talking about boas or balls.

Seamus, et. all, I fully understand that you guys know what each other means when you say "pastel," and frankily you have every right to call your snake whatever you want. However, I do not believe your repeated use of the word "pastel" as a short way of denoting "Pastel Jungle" will hold up in the long run. It's to generic. Capitalize and add "Jungle." It's only 6 more letters. Isn't your investment worth that?