Todd Smith (Deal Gone South)

[Greg Riso]

I originally posted this here for opinions only but it was bumped to the general discussions forum for failure to provide SUBJECT name in topic line. Todd Smith's addy is [email protected]
This regards a situation that began almost two weeks ago when I received a '00 male hypo DH ghost said to be produced by Jeremy Stone and a female '01 anery produced by Boa Republic for a total of $1,450 shipped. I say "said to be produced by Jeremy Stone" because I have no proof of this or that this male hypo is actually het for anything because the proper paperwork I requested was never provided by Todd Smith. When asked if they were feeding on f/t rats I was told "Yes, they are feeding on frozen/thawed, tame, and in excellent health (neither one has ever been sick)."
What I received was another story altogether. The female anery is not at issue here except if there's a health issue with the other animal, she could have possibly been contaminated by the male since they were shipped together. Each have been separated from one another since their arrival and are in strict quarantine.
Herein lies the problem. The hypo DH ghost is extremely skinny for his length and being an '00 weighs in at a whopping 3 pounds. Each and every time I've tried to feed him a f/t rat he's wanted no part of it so I contacted Todd. He informed me that the male was used as a breeder this season and therefore thin and possibly not eating because he's still in the breeding mode. I was told to wiggle the prey to simulate live prey and dose the hypo with Flagyl since he's had good success using this to stimulate animals to feed again after breeding. I tried the wiggling routine to no avail but don't believe I should be expected to dose an animal with something to get it to feed. The animal was sold to me as feeding and judging by its' appearance hasn't been for a long time. In addition to this the animal's been acting strangely looking up at nothing for extended periods of time (stargazing). I wrote Todd telling him I believe this animal was misrepresented as feeding and healthy which it is obviously not, that it had all of the symptoms of IBD, and that I wanted to send the animal back for a full refund of $1,000. Initially, he told me he'd take the hypo back and get him feeding again. I told him it would take 4 months of weekly feedings to get this animal up to a healthy weight and that I wanted a refund because I didn't pay that kind of money for a nonfeeding animal that was represented as feeding fine.
Today Todd has agreed to "meet me half way" and refund me $750 for the animal if it arrives alive in CA by this Thursday. After this day I'll lose my option for a refund or anything on the animal if he doesn't receive the snake alive. I have told him that this animal's going back but I don't feel I should have to take a $250 loss because I was shipped an animal that should never have been sold in this condition in the first place. Please don't ask me about the sellers guarantees because I feel the real issue here is misrepresentation. I was never given proof of this animal's origin or its genetics that it's a genuine het for anery, and I was assured it was healthy and feeding. To me these are reason enough why the seller should refund me the full value of $1,000 and that would be the end of it. What would you do in my situation and do you agree with this sellers policy? __________________
Greg Riso

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Greg

How long a time period elapsed after receiving the animals before you notified the seller of your dissatisfaction?

 

[Greg Riso]

Elapsed Time

I received the animals on Wed. 3/19 and attempted to feed both animals the following night on Thurs. I had to go away until the following Monday evening so I was unable to contact Todd until Tuesday morning. I wrote the following letter:

Subj: Re: Animals Received
Date: 3/25/2003 9:15:54 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: MATRIXNINJA70
To: [email protected]


Todd,

I was out of town and unable to respond until now. The pic of the hypo het for anery doesn't show in your e-mail even though when I open it there's a description there and an indication that there are two images loading yet only the anery shows.
I'm very concerned about the hypo being so thin for his length. Especially since I've tried feeding him twice now and he's not been interested in anything. The day after he arrived I placed a f/t medium rat in with him and he wouldn't touch it. The anery was right on the same type food item. I decided to let him wait until I returned late last night and again offered him food and he didn't show any interest then either. When I received this pair I commented that both animals looked good. By this I was referring to their condition after shipping. I saw the male as looking pretty lean and didn't think much of it. Now after seeing his lack of interest in feeding I'm much more concerned if this animal has been a problem feeder for a while or has stopped feeding altogether as he's much thinner than any boa I've ever had for this length.
If I can't get this guy to feed soon I'd like to send him back to you. I feel he's had ample time to settle in and his husbandry conditions are optimal and all of my other 30+ boas are all feeding fine. Both he and the anery have been quarantined from my other animals and from each other so you need not be concerned about them being contaminated. I'll try again today to offer him another rat as maybe he's a daytime feeder and just to give him another chance.

Greg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was away and unable to contact Todd most of this period. Of course I wasn't overly concerned that the hypo didn't feed the night after having been shipped but I was clearly alarmed and worried when the animal was not interested in feeding five days later.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Greg,

In my opinion a full refund is deserved. Flagyl to stimulate feeding? Yes, particularly in any animal that has suffered from regurgitation problems due to a protozoan infection of the GI tract (Although I am not saying this is the case).

Good luck!

 

[kim felts]

greg

let me ask you a question..is this person todd in no california and his wife is a teacher?
im trying to establish his identity a litte more clearly.
i think he also had a rick straub male for sale that was being represented as a breeding male.

thanks
kim

 

[Greg Riso]

One and The Same

Kim, To answer your question yes, this is the same person. He's even given me an address to send the animal back to which must be where his wife works. Here's a copy of his last letter to me.:

Subj: Re: Return and Refund for Hypo
Date: 3/31/2003 2:16:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Greg,

Here is how I'd like to resolve this situation, since there is some health question about the hypo (het anery) male on your part. As I stated in my previous e-mails, I sent you two, healthy feeding animals. I said that the male was used for breeding this year and that many breeder males are thin and reluctant feeders after going through breeding season.

Since many things can happen to an animal after shipping (temperature extreme exposure, new facility environs, the simple act of shipping itself), I am willing to meet you more than halfway financially.

(1) Send the male back to me on Wednesday (4/2/03) for a Thursday (4/3/03) guaranteed live arrival (via FedEx or UPS...your choice) to the address below and I'll refund you $750;

(2) Send the male back to me on Wednesday (4/2/03) for a Thursday (4/3/03)guaranteed live arrival (via FedEx or UPS...your choice) to the address below and I'll get him feeding again on frozen/thawed rats and send him back.

When I receive the hypo (het anery) male alive on Thursday, I will either refund the $750 or work with him to get him feeding again on frozen/thawed rats and ship him back to you (as stated above in Option #2).

Please ship this Wednesday (4/2/03) for a Thursday (4/3/03) arrival (via FedEx or UPS guaranteed Next Day delivery) to the following address:

Pathways Charter School
Attn: Karri Smith
4008 Bohemian Hwy
Occidental, CA 95465

***If I do not receive the animal alive on Thursday (4/3/03), I will consider that you have decided to keep the animal and the opportunity to return the animal is no longer available.***

Respectfully,

~Todd
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------As you can read he's emphasized the words "live arrival" four times. I'm going to pack the animal very carefully but what's to say this person couldn't purposefully kill the hypo once it reaches them to instantly absolve them of any responsibility? Oops! sorry Greg, the animal didn't make it so I guess you're out of luck! I'm not saying that they would do this. I'm simply saying they could do this and not be out one cent. I've got everything to lose here in any scenario. If the animal arrives fine according to Todd I have a choice of him getting the animal back feeding or $750 which is $250 less than the figure we talked about for just this animal by itself. I asked more than once for a $1,000 refund and this is the best he says he'll do. If you're contemplating doing business with this person regarding the Rick Staub animal you mentioned earlier you may want to rethink that one. Do you honestly think I should take ANY loss for being sent an animal that NEVER should have been sold?

 

[bpc]

$1000 for something you've never seen?!?!

I just want to make sure I've got this story straight. You sent this guy, whom you didn't know, $1000 for a snake you'd never even seen a picture of??? If that is correct, then you are crazy period. And if that is correct then I think you are somewhat at his mercy. I agree that $250 is steep for taking the animal back, but these are all issues you should have worked out ahead of time. I can't imagine sending someone $1000 for a single animal of that type w/o seeing pictures and copies of the paperwork first. Yeah, you can try to fall back on the old, "well, I took his word for it." but, cmon, you've got to know better.

 

[Greg Riso]

A Pic Was In The Ad

First of all let me clarify that there was a pic of the hypo het for anery posted in the ad at Kingsnake but I have no way of telling when it was taken. The animal I received was thinner. My mention in the letter concerning the pic not coming through was regarding his certification. Since he couldn't come up with any original paperwork on either animal he decided to send me a letter with his personal certification that the pictured animal were what he said they were. The main problem I have with this is the animal in question here, the one which accounted for 2/3rds of the sale price of the pair had no picture enclosed in his "certification." I had requested original documentation but received the following.:

Subj: Re: Animals Received
Date: 3/21/2003 2:54:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Greg,

For your records...This is to confirm that the '01 anerythristic female (captive-produced by Boa Republic) and the '01 hypo (het for anerythrism) captive-produced by Jeremy Stone pictured below were sent to you on 3/18/03. If there are any questions, please feel free to e-mail or call.

Thanks,

~Todd
707-576-3927


'01 Hypo (het anery) Male (CB Jeremy Stone)


'01 Anerythristic Female (CB Boa Republic)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Under the first heading for the hypo het anery there was no pic. There was one for the normal anery that doesn't copy and paste here. I'm not concerned about the anery because I've verified him through pics at Boa Republic's website. Also he refers to the hypo het anery as being a 2,001 when in the original ad at Kingsnake it was advertised as a 2,000.

Greg

 

[kim felts]

i cant understand why you would have to take a 250.00 hit for sending the snake back..whats the logic in that?
this bothers me alot about this deal....doesnt seem fair.

k

 

[Russ Lockenwitz]

Greg,

First let me say that I do not think you should lose $250 if you send the animals back to Todd......Secondly, I think Todd Smith is a good guy and has a vast knowledge of animals and do not think he sent you a sick animal. Todd is correct in saying that animals do not always react well to shipping and something could have happened during transit. Does this mean you should have to give the animal meds to eat? Absolutely not...Does this mean Todd should agree to work something out with you? For sure.....I hope that you work things out with him as I find Todd Smith to be a good guy and someone who is in this hobby not to get rich but instead to produce nice animals!

Oh, before I forget, I have some 00' males that are only 3 pounds and they breed like champs....As the matter of fact all of my males are smaller then most breeders would keep their animals but this by no means indicates that they are unhealthy.....If the male is not eating perhaps he wants to breed.....Some of my male boas only eat for 3 months out of the year after they start the breeding season...As the matter of fact some would rather breed then eat! Again, good luck in resolving this dispute with Todd!

 

[bpc]

That makes a bit more sense. But, did you guys discuss what would happen were there any problems before you went through with this deal? I hate to beat you up here, as you are the one with a snake you are unhappy with, but cmon man. You're on this board enought to know better. I think the issue that's really causes the most concern in the lack of paperwork on the animal. That gives you more of a leg to stand on than the animal's health, at least in my eyes. Work that angle.

 

[Greg Riso]

I Agree

Thank you all for your opinions. Of course I don't feel I should have to take a $250 hit here. If the animal was feeding as represented and I had the appropriate paperwork to verify the het status and the animal's origin there wouldn't be a problem. The fact is the animal is not feeding and I don't have any paperwork besides Todd's assurance they are what he says they are. I'm sending the animal back and hoping to get things settled in a better way than what's been proposed thus far by Todd. I indicated to him that I would bring this to the BOI and I'm hoping that maybe after reading some of these replies he'll come around and understand my perspective better. I don't believe he's a bad guy but I'm not happy with the way he's handled things either.

 

[kim felts]

i dont get it..no papers to verify genetics..thin animal and a 250 hit for not being satisfied with less then what was expected.
wow..sounds expensive to do business with this person.
i would have thought he would be more inclined to give you a 250 dollar break in light of the situation.....reducing the price of the snake versus charging you for its less then satisfactory condition.
amazing.

 

[Greg Riso]

Why Does This Board Exist?

Well, I wrote Todd and notified him of this thread with the hope that he'd see the light but it appears he's chosen to see red instead. The following was sent to me a short while ago by him. I wasn't aware that the use of this forum was slanderous when all I've printed were the facts. Here's the letter I received:

Subj: Re: BOI Thread
Date: 4/1/2003 10:42:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: "Todd Smith" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: "Todd Smith" <[email protected]>
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Greg,

After reading what you posted, I have decided to NOT accept the return of the hypo (het for anery) male boa and this transaction is closed. I would like to advise you that slander and liable are criminal acts, which I intend to pursue legally if this slanderous misinformation is not removed within 24 hours of you receiving this message and a public retraction on the same forum.

The allegations that you made on a public forum (link below) are blatant misrepresentations as confirmed by the facts of this situation. First, I sent verification of bloodline authenticity with including photos of both animals. Second, I guaranteed live arrival and in good condition, which you confirmed. I also worked with you to identify causes of the animals alleged current condition...including information which supports that breeding activity causes the symptoms that you described. I offered solutions including mitigating the alleged condition with the use of Flagyl or to return the animal to me for administration, which was not acceptable to you.

Your actions have demonstrated that you are not trustworthy and as a result there will be no further good faith efforts on my part.

Please do NOT ship the animal back to me, as I will not accept it.

Consider this transaction closed.

Regards,

~Todd
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:53 PM
Subject: BOI Thread


Todd,

I wanted you to make you aware of the thread I started at the Fauna BOI. Here's the link:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16109

I posted only to get feedback from others regarding this situation not to make you out to be a villian. I welcome any comments you care to make there.

Greg

 

[East TN Reptile]

I do not know the seller...............BUT.I do know the buyer. Greg Riso, Greg is the most honest person I've had the pleasure of doing business with.
Flagyl is used to kill parasites................ period. It does NOT, I repeat....does NOT stimulate appetite!!!! Flagy is a high powered Anibiotic that makes the G.I. Tract extremley irritated. The reason I know this is 1) I've been a herper for 14 years 2) I'm also a nurse. Even where I work when giving PT's this medication, it's ALWAY gave with something to coat the stomach. That only cuts down the irritation some...not all of it.
A buyer.anyone. should not have to treat an animal. The animal should have been sold healthy or not at all.
Greg has every right for a refund. If you buy an animal & it's not what you were told it was..............REFUND. Whether it be wrong sex,wrong animal,sick.........ect. Also, No one should be "timed" on how quick they can get a half dead animal to the seller. Seems like it almost as if. " If it dies before it gets here"........" I don't have to pay up!"
Also, calling Greg stupid for trusting someone is very inmature IMO.
Anyone who has EVER dealt with Greg Riso knows he's honest & has quality animals.
Greg also has a great amount of patients (trust me,I know)
Greg came here to the BOI for info & a warning for potiential buyers from this certain seller. What did he get in return?
Incorrect info on medication..................... Trust me,nothing personal to the guy that posted bout the medication, But he is wrong And for the love of Pete.please do not reply back stating otherwise. I've been to med school & work as a trained, licensed nurse. Maybe you were just informed wrong. I only wrote about it before someone tried it to stimulate appetite.............. it does the opposite.
Greg, unfortunitly had someone nice enough to insult his intellegense "stupid"
Greg would never lie to obtain animals. If he wrote and said the snake talked and flew around the room......... I'd beleive him
IMO the seller should give Greg a refund.That's good business. And as far as "good business" Greg Riso has went alot out of his way for me & others. If something is wrong with a snake...Greg will refund you & make it right. I've never met Greg. I wouldn't know him if he walked up & slapped me. I do know that Greg is a super guy and an excellent business reputation! It bothers me a great deal to see someone who really helps out other herpers and is more than true to the business to get treated this way. As far as to what anyone else has to say in this matter................reverse the roles here...........Would YOU want a refund, on YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY? Dave Derrick

 

[Wilomn]

Dave, I've got to both agree and disagree with you. Flagyl(metranitazole) is an appitite stimulant. I have used it for several problem feeders I've had over the years after having gotten it from a vet that specializes in Reptiles out here in L.A. It works very well for said stimulation.

However, I do agree with you that Greg should have gotten a full refund.

Wes Pollock

 

[East TN Reptile]

I knew this was comming. From " The Nursing 03 Drug Nursing Handbook:
Metronidazole/ Flagyl- ( A dirct-acting trichomonacide & amebicide that works as both intestinal & extraininal) translation.it kills parasites....does not act as an appetitte stimulate!
ADVERSE REACTIONS.......... and I quote "G.I.- abdominal cramping, or pain.epigastric distress.NAUSEA.VOMITTING,ANOREXIA (as in skinny from NOT eating) Diarrhea "
I wonder why...........
A) A nursing Drug Handbook would print such lies? WOW! Ya know Doctors and nurses use this drug wrong? YOU need to notify the United States Physicians Administration! NOW! Before ALL the DR's & nurses use this drug wrong!
B) Please notify the entire state of TN that ALL of it's nurses don't know that Flagyl is being used wrong. when ya throw up,get skinny & nausiated........it just means your hungry!
I swear...........some people would argue with a stump. Go read this! Look it up! Talk with a M.D. , take Nursing school. THEN.when you know what your talking about, we'll discuss medications. Dave Derrick LPN ( well.thought I was)

 

[Wilomn]

I suppose if I looked through enough books I could find one that supported me. It's not worth it. You have a VERY poor attitude. You are entitled to your oh-so-well-informed opinion. You can also take it and your attitude, fold them until they are all corners and shove them where the sun don't shine.

There was no need to get so high handed about it, especially if you "knew it was coming".

The Doctor, not his nurse, that I have been using for the last fifteen years has a different opinion than yours. I will go with his both because I trust his years of good and acurate diagnosis on my animals and because I have seen it work first hand.

If you can, I would be willing to afree to disagree on this with you in a civil manner. I really see no reason for flying off the handle as you did.

Wes Pollock

 

[Wilomn]

That should have been agree not afree in the previous post.

Wes Pollock

 

[Rick Staub]

flagyl

I guess this is off topic but here goes. Flagyl has both antiprotozoan and mild antibacterial activity. The later probably has a calming effect on the microflora in the gut of stressed herps and results in the appetite stimulation that has been so widely credited to this drug. While this activity probably falls under anecdotal observations, it is well known in herpetoculture and my vet also perscribes it for that purpose and it has worked for me several times. I highly doubt that the Nurses Handbook would address anything close to this topic as it specifically addresses human uses and doses. Unlike here in the United States, Flagyl is a common over the counter medication sold in Mexico for the trots. I doubt it would be so widely used in Mexico if the side effects were that acute. Are you sure the side effects you listed were not attributed to its adverse interaction with alcohol. Flagyl inhibits the metabolism of alcohol and will certainly lead to cramping, nausea, and other effects.

As for the issue at hand, I hope Greg and Todd can work this out as I have had good dealings with both of them.

Rick Staub