Tom Carlton dishonest and unethical

[SPJ]

I going to try and be as objective as possible with this post.

Clutch 19 produced 7 good eggs and 2 duds (I coded them all with Dan's name on them). 6 of them died pre hatch I froze these eggs with Dan's name on them. I still have them in the freezer If anyone would like pics.

If six out of 7 died, what happened to the other one? Did at least one of his eggs actually hatch?

Were the females you used proven or was this their first year?

Was Dan's spider actually ready to breed? It seems to me that letting it put on another couple hundred grams would have increased the odds for viable eggs.

When did Dan get the snake back? If it was in July, then he should be conpensated for the vet bill. If it was in May, well then it sounds like the RI appeared while in his care.

 

[pch101]

"While I am reluctant to take Dan's side here, as he is a known troll and bad-doer, Tom has posted a lot of bluster here without proof. Maybe it all is so, but maybe it isn't. Who really knows?

I would be more inclined to completely believe Tom if he hadn't immediately threatened lawyers and lawsuits. Most of the time it's the bad guys who do that. That doesn't mean Tom is a bad guy, but that observation is true at least nine times out of ten on this site. The other things that I have noticed bad guys do is claim that this will be the one and only time they will post on this site (as Tom did), though most do come back as they cannot resist.

Just because there are bad eggs with Dan's name on them does not mean that those were from the clutches that Dan was involved in. And we haven't seen them (Tom offered pics but didn't post them).

This comes down to a "he said, she said". My money is on Dan being the bad guy here but I am not 100% convinced. Of course then there is the issue of Dan being the pot calling the kettle black. That's the best case scenario for Dan, and even that is iffy. Karma? Perhaps.

Tom, do you have a gambling addiction? Are you on federal probation? If so, for what? With all due respect, a criminal record may or may not speak to character, depending on the issue(s) involved."

I am going to jump onto Jim's coat tails again here. I am with him on this. We know Dan is not to be trusted, but... Tom has not really given any proof, and he did play the lawsuit card along with the "this will be my last post" card. Both scammer favorites... My suggestion for you Tom is not to make threats that you cannot back up. It detracts from your credibility.

 

[Jim O]

Well he is at least reading this...

 

[Dennis Hultman]

While I am reluctant to take Dan's side here, as he is a known troll and bad-doer, Tom has posted a lot of bluster here without proof. Maybe it all is so, but maybe it isn't. Who really knows?
Just because there are bad eggs with Dan's name on them does not mean that those were from the clutches that Dan was involved in. And we haven't seen them (Tom offered pics but didn't post them).

I am going to jump onto Jim's coat tails again here. I am with him on this. We know Dan is not to be trusted, but... Tom has not really given any proof, and he did play the lawsuit card along with the "this will be my last post" card. Both scammer favorites... My suggestion for you Tom is not to make threats that you cannot back up. It detracts from your credibility.

Valid points from both but I would also point out who started the thread and so whom should the proof come.

 

[Jim O]

Valid points from both but I would also point out who started the thread and so whom should the proof come.

Dan did post a vet report (amazingly enough). The dates are a "he said, she said" . Tom made claims about the eggs which were under his control but thus far hasn't backed them up.

And Tom is talking like some of the bad guys do...threatening a defamation lawsuit. Where's the defamation?

 

[Junkyard]

Just out of curiosity,

Tom, how many eggs did you lose total?

In readings Dan's post it seems that only his were lost. This might help us to get an idea of what was the total loss. I can look beyond the "only and last" post comment to have these questions we all have asked cleared up.

What is the posibility of losing the eggs of high end BPs? I would think you did everything possible that these eggs in particular would be the most closely watched of them all. So was it poor husbandry or just bad luck?

 

[The BoidSmith]

My only knowledge of Tom Carlton is having seen his animals first hand in Daytona. They were very well kept and looked nice. If someone started saying that there’s a new strain of nasty bacteria running rampant through my collection, it would certainly scare clients away. Is that grounds for a law suit? A lawyer would know better than me.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Dan did post a vet report (amazingly enough). The dates are a "he said, she said" . Tom made claims about the eggs which were under his control but thus far hasn't backed them up.

True enough and Tom has already backed himself into a corner with his first post “will be his last” statement.

But how in the world can Tom prove his point about the eggs? I can’t see anyway. Could be Dan’s eggs, maybe not. No way to know.

And Tom is talking like some of the bad guys do...threatening a defamation lawsuit. Where's the defamation?

True but he could be just pissed off.

 

[Jungle Gems]

I purchased a male Pied from Daniel Haney a few months back. He arrived in perfect health hes pounding rats and has never refused a meal. Just my experience.

A level of idiocy not yet attained by even "Serpentboy" himself.

 

[Cypresscreek]

You guys are right. There is no way I should post one time and then just let it go. I'm being falsely accused of something that I'm 100% innocent of. I will state for the record that I have never in my life stolen a snake or percentage of a snake from anybody. I will gladly take a lie detector test to that effect if Dan will pay for it and have the results of that test posted on this forum. I wonder if could pass that test question? That, though not admissible in court is very strong evidence of innocence. Cops fold murder investigations on people suspected of murder after they pass a polygraph test. The cost is around $200 dollars Dan. I'm ready when you are.
I would like to say to the guy that said that I'm guilty because I will be taking Dan to court on this, that, that is absurd. In one of his posts Dan says that I have ripped him off for high end morphs, (Bumble Bees and Spiders). He's a liar. I have not produced any of those morphs this year. And when you make false allegations like that in a public forum, I.e.. newspapers, radio, or a site like this, in this country you are committing a crime. I've been told by my attorney that it is not an arrest able offence, but once found guilty in the court of law (which he will be) if he were to do it again he could be arrested and thrown in jail. In answer to the guy that asked "where's the defamation" . Well that is defamation of character. People read false accusations on someone and believe what they are reading that is when defamation of character has been achieved. That is what Dan has accomplished here. Do you have any idea what it feels like to read all this bull and know that there are people out there who will actually believe that it may be true. Also think of how tough it is to actually prove that a breeder loan situation didn't work out. That snakes either didn't lay eggs are that the eggs laid didn't hatch! Luckily for me when I saw that the eggs that the eggs involved in the partnership where going bad I put them in the freezer to show Dan that I didn't hatch snakes from them. Dan has seen these eggs (pics posted) That's why I can't believe that he's posting things that he knows are lies.
I have included a picture of my price list that I had on my table at Daytona. Bumble Bees are listed in anticipation of the one's I hope to produce (6 eggs in incubator) I used my own Spider and Pastel Jungle to produce those eggs.
I have not produced Spiders this year. And I will not be producing any Spiders this year. Dan would have you believe that I'm sitting over here rolling in them!
I asked that any body any where I has heard me trying to sell either Spiders or Bumble Bees before this post come foreword now and post there claim. If I had Spiders or Bumble Bees, don't you think someone at the Daytona show would have heard about it.
Someone buys a $20,000 snake even if the seller makes them swear not to tell where it came from, it always gets out.
I've just about had it with this whole thing. I don't enjoy waking up on a work day with nearly 1000 snakes to take care of and have to sit a a computer and spend half the day fighting for my name.
Dan's accusations are lies. Though I can't prove that conclusively to you people who read this forum. I have been told by my attorney that I have a strong enough case to take this matter to court and have have a judge resolve it. That's good enough for me.
The pics I have posted of the eggs are of two clutches that did not work out. These I saved to show Dan because he was not here when I pulled them out of the incubator. Others where thrown out when Dan and his wife where here. One female het ghost made it and is doing fine. Previously I was thinking of giving my half ownership over to Dan because I fell bad for him about the way the whole thing worked out. I don't feel that way any more. Now if he wants it he will have to pay me half of the fair market price for the snake. I on the other hand will deduct that price from the legal fees and settlement owed me when this thing goes through the legal system. When I get the law suit filed I will post that for you as well. You see guilty people don't normally go through the hassle and expense of filing a false case before a judge. That would be perjury and you can go to jail for that.
That's why when "bad guys" on this forum threaten to go to court they never do. I am not no of those people. I will see you in court Dan, and I will get a settlement.
One last thing about the eggs. I write the date and what it is on every egg I produce, with a ball point ink pen. You could say that I wrote Dan's name on those eggs after they went bad, and planned the whole thing out that way. But think about it. To do that I would have to have a bunch of unmarked eggs (you can't erase egg from an egg shell) from normals that I bred just for that purpose. Then they would have to magically go bad, but I guess you could make that happen, then switch them out.
But ask yourself this, is a breeder of high end morphs going to go though all that to beat a guy out of a couple clutches of Het Ghosts that he already owns 50% of anyway? That absurd!
I've said enough, I'm upset and I need to get back to work. Before today I had visited this site one time. I seemed to my like the Jerry Springer show in print. But looking at it from the viewpoint of some one that is falsely accused of something he didn't do it's different. I hope that after reading this that some where between these line that you all will realize that Tom's is not a bad guy, he's a good guy and he was all along.
As for you Dan, I hope some day when you grow up that you will realize that sometimes when you put a 500gr male on females it just doesn't always work the way you hope that it would.








http://www

 

[Jim O]

Tom,

I understand that you are frustrated but maybe you need to take a valium before you type. First, I said you were sounding like a bad guy, not that you were guilty of anything. No one did in fact.

Did you really talk to a lawyer about all of this since last night when you were last here? Because I do not believe that he told you what you posted. In order to prevail in a "defamation" suit you need to prove not only that libel occurred (which it may well have) but that it also resulted in real damages. In other words, it is not enough that someone lies about you, those lies have to cause real injury, in this case loss of revenue. To prove that would be rather hard I would think and if your lawyer told you that you could file a suit now he needs to retake the bar exam. Also, even if you are awarded civil damages, collecting them is often excruciatingly difficult as assets have a way of "disappearing" in the course of litigating a case like this, which no doubt would take years. Another point that I doubt that your lawyer ever said was that defamation is a crime. It isn't. It's a tort, a civil wrong, for which there is no jail or arrests (ever). Your only remedy if it continues is to bring the offending party back to civil court and ask for a court order to stop it. If the person defies that court order then he can be arrested, but generally there is little jail time involved in that beyond a slap on the wrist.

Lastly, filing a lawsuit where you believe you have been injured NEVER constitutes perjury. Perjury only occurs when you lie about facts to which you have knowledge. And perjury in a civil case rarely results in any penalty at all. Remember Bill Clinton? He lied under oath in a civil case and I don't recall him getting any jail time (though he was disbarred -- again, a civil penalty).

From the sound of it you are certainly justifiably angry. Your biggest mistake would have been getting involved with the likes of Dan. When you roll around in manure you rarely come out smelling like roses. But I do have some questions for you. Why, if you have 1000+ snakes did you feel the need to partner with anyone? And if you did, why a guy with his reputation? You have a collection worth that much and you even let him know where you keep it? What were you thinking?

 

[Cypresscreek]

Jim: I realize that no one is going to jail over this. And proving what loss has occurred will be up to the judge. I did elaborate some on a few points, I'm just pissed.
As for hooking up with Dan in the first place I would have done better reading through some of these post one him before hand. I had no idea he was scum at the time.
I've added around 400 females to my group after the breeding season. That puts me around 1000 now.
As for why would I take on a breeding project with some one when I'm already successful. Well, I had extra breeder size females that I could put another Spider on.
I would have been thrilled to split say 3 or 4 clutches of Spiders with Dan had this thing worked out.

Tom Carlton
Cypress Creek Reptiles

 

[pch101]

Tom, After your original post, even the people that were previously giving Dan the benefit of the doubt immediately realized that things looked very bad for Dan. I think that most people tend to think you are telling the truth, even though it is not an easy thing to prove on your end. Which leads me to this. Even if you do follow through and haul Dan into court, You will have the burden of proof on you. You will have to be the one to prove defamation of character and libel. Dan does not have to prove anything. It is you that has the burden of proof. If your Lawyer is really telling you that you have a case, you may want to consider his incentive in taking this case and going to court. I would not be the only guy here that would love to see you get a judgment against Dan. But realistically I do not see it happening...

 

[Jim O]

Jim: I realize that no one is going to jail over this. And proving what loss has occurred will be up to the judge. I did elaborate some on a few points, I'm just pissed.
As for hooking up with Dan in the first place I would have done better reading through some of these post one him before hand. I had no idea he was scum at the time.
I've added around 400 females to my group after the breeding season. That puts me around 1000 now.
As for why would I take on a breeding project with some one when I'm already successful. Well, I had extra breeder size females that I could put another Spider on.
I would have been thrilled to split say 3 or 4 clutches of Spiders with Dan had this thing worked out.

Tom Carlton
Cypress Creek Reptiles

Actually it would be up to a jury, not a judge most likely. And most likely it would net you nothing but heartache, even if you "won". Having been the winner in several lawsuits I can tell you that much from personal experience. You are best off washing your hands of this guy and walking away. He can't tarnish your reputation except with people of his own ilk, the type you'd want to avoid anyway. Anyone who would be swayed by his opinion of you or his words, please send my way as I have a bridge to sell them in Brooklyn.

You learned a painful lesson; the BOI has its purpose despite being (more than) a bit Jerry Springer-ish at times.

Time for you to move on from this issue. You've made your case. In my opinion, you've won and he's done.

 

[pch101]

Well great, Jim beat me again. I should have just saved myself the time and posted something like "I agree with Jim" (again). Dang it Jim, don't you ever sleep?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Thanks Tom.

Dan, you need to answer the questions on your own threads before you post new ones about others.

 

[Bighaze]

Yea Tom,

Like I told you in the e-mail, I am still looking forward to doing business with you again. I think your a stand up guy, and from what I saw of your place, you would have no reason to rip anyone off, not on snakes, not on eggs, not on anything!!

I'm just glad you came and posted your side of the story.

 

[gmherps]

You are best off washing your hands of this guy and walking away. He can't tarnish your reputation except with people of his own ilk, the type you'd want to avoid anyway.

Time for you to move on from this issue. You've made your case. In my opinion, you've won and he's done.

Best post yet.

 

[pch101]

"Dan, you need to answer the questions on your own threads before you post new ones about others."

Dennis, I think Dan has run away, and I do not think he will answer any of the questions on the other threads.

Dan, I am sure Jim has given you this on other threads. But I would like to be the one to give it to you here on this one.
Now take a deep breath bye bye.

 

[The BoidSmith]

You are best off washing your hands of this guy and walking away. He can't tarnish your reputation except with people of his own ilk, the type you'd want to avoid anyway.

Very well said Jim!

As for hooking up with Dan in the first place I would have done better reading through some of these post one him before hand. I had no idea he was scum at the time.

That was my initial reaction, how in the world did you get hooked-up with this individual? Although I don't know you personally I've seen your animals in Daytona, and was quite impressed. I've also followed your progress through the years. From what it's worth I feel you present yourself very professionally. Just be careful who do you associate with. Maybe you should frequent the BOI on a regular basis. Hopefully by now you have seen that it can be an invaluable resource if used judiciously.

Regards.