Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

[Lucille]

I think that perhaps some may be scared off of internet deals, but after all, whether buying in person or buying a thousand miles away, a het is only as good as who you buy it from. Someone can just as easy hand you a fake het right there in person.

People are angered and upset when they experience betrayal. Whether betrayed by a spouse, and employer, or a reptile vendor, there is the same sick, let down feeling that you've been had by someone you trusted.

But most, far and away most, people are not like that. I can name a bunch of people here on this site I would send serious money to (if I had any) and never doubt but that I would get whatever was agreed upon.

Integrity lives.

 

[KelliH]

I know why people where afraid to post about past "not so good" deals with Chris. They felt intimidated by him, and they felt that it would do no good to post here, since Chris was so "well liked". I know of two seperate deals folks had that are not even ball python related that involve VERY subpar animals received from TSE (they were sick). You see, that was Chris' MO, intimidation, intimidation, intimidation. He's good at it. I never liked that aspect of his personality, although I tolerated it because I (like many others I'm sure) thought "at least he is an honest guy, he calls it like he sees it etc.".

I don't feel that someone should post on the BOI if a snake they buy has mites, or if there is a mix up in an order, or whatever. 90% of the time the seller will correct these types of problems, and that is what is most important isn't it? How a seller reacts when something goes wrong in an order, how he or she "makes it right".

 

[HerpLuver]

I dont know if im allowed to post in someone's stead who is not a paid user. But i received a PM from someone just yesterday regarding the fact that they where also taken by TSE. Here's the PM in its entirety;

Sorry, but no, you cannot post a pass through message for a non paying member. That completely defeats the reasoning for requiring the payment process. After all, if you can do it, then why not everyone else? Accordingly, that text has been deleted from this post. - WebSlave

 

[Cat_72]

I know why people where afraid to post about past "not so good" deals with Chris. They felt intimidated by him, and they felt that it would do no good to post here, since Chris was so "well liked". I know of two seperate deals folks had that are not even ball python related that involve VERY subpar animals received from TSE (they were sick). You see, that was Chris' MO, intimidation, intimidation, intimidation. He's good at it. I never liked that aspect of his personality, although I tolerated it because I (like many others I'm sure) thought "at least he is an honest guy, he calls it like he sees it etc.".

I don't feel that someone should post on the BOI if a snake they buy has mites, or if there is a mix up in an order, or whatever. 90% of the time the seller will correct these types of problems, and that is what is most important isn't it? How a seller reacts when something goes wrong in an order, how he or she "makes it right".

You took the words right out of my mouth, Kelli.

I've talked to a couple of people that in the past received sub-par animals, but never came forward for those very reasons....they assumed that no one would believe them, and they would look like fools, so they just ate the losses and moved on. I myself hesitated to say anything even at the beginning of this thread.

He's made some really "wonderful" contributions the the hobby, and it just makes it that much harder for the little guy to get a fair start in this business.

 

[cahrens]

As for me, I didn't post anywhere about the mites I received because I didn't deem it BOI worthy. I asked if they had been in contact or proximity with any of the imports he had going in and out and I was assured that they were nowhere near them. As I stated, I killed them off right away and that was the end of that problem. I waited 3 weeks to get the 2nd half of my order and I got a little concerned in that time frame but based on his stellar reputation my concerns were at a minimum and when I got the animals I thought everything was fine. No reason for a post/warning in my opinion. I also didn't post a good guy post or vote on his GGC pole because I was satisfied but not happy with the transaction. My feeling about the whole deal was a neutral one.
On another note, I originally replied to an ad that stated there were 1.2 '04 het pieds left which I bought. A week later the ad remained the same and I questioned TSE about it. I didn't get any response to that question. I thought that maybe they just didn't update their ads. I also considered the fact that it may just be a ploy to make the animals more desireable. I mean it certainly made me act quicker to get the trio since it was the last trio they had available. Again, I wasn't dissatisfied so no reason to post such. -Chris

 

[Chameleon Company]

As for a "planned strategy"

Hey Laura. Gonna borrow a part of your post:

If this was a planned strategy, it is the most elaborately planned scam in the history of the BOI. I don't believe that to be what has happened here.

I know that Rich, myself, and others alluded to the possibility of this being a scam that had several contributing parts, but at the same time I don't think its a matter of an elaborate plan, just a convergence of opportunity. Chris is arrogant and disrespectful by nature. Both of the opinions of others, and as we know now, also their money. As for scamming hets, which is not proven but which all arrows point to, and knowing that they sell based on reputation, Chris was very aware of this. Whether he actively solicited the trader ratings specifically to facilitate the scam, or just because he was a low-life, or a combination of both, is not such a surprise. Credible folks don't have to solicit them, and don't here, but as we see now, Chris was not credible. It all fit his MO. He also may have started out trying to be on the up and up, maybe even produced some hets, but with the eventual mites, intestinal problems, weather excuses, no refunds (while he procured animals to ship), "last one", ads that don't change, etc, it is painfully clear that he was scamming.

Someone asked a while back "what happened to all the money"? I myself pointed out many times that true high-end ball breeders do not fall into this situation. Cash flow should have been enormously positive. Even if you are scamming. If you can acquire normal CB balls for $25-50 and turn them for $500-1500, the cash flow is going to be great for a couple of years. But even Chris couldn't keep that up, as he's been busted before a single het has been proven good or bad.

So here we go. Out on a limb with one explanation. Pure speculation on my part, but for many of us who have seen this in other venues, it is one possible answer that fits like a glove. Just a guess, mind you, but it explains all. And I do mean all. Call me a schmuck. Cocaine.

 

[nicolai]

he gave me a deal LOL some deal in the end i guess.
i placed my order on 12/25/05

Geesh, he placed the order on Christmas day, Talk about Santa not giving him what he wanted for Christmas!!! That is a total bummer. Mike (stings) I hope you get your money back.

 

[Whitewater Reptiles]

WOW.....
It's scary / depressing to see more and more people starting to come forward and stating that they have not received what they paid for, and we're not talking about a couple hundred dollars. How far has this gone???
Mike Derks

 

[shep151]

On another note, I originally replied to an ad that stated there were 1.2 '04 het pieds left which I bought. A week later the ad remained the same and I questioned TSE about it. I didn't get any response to that question. I thought that maybe they just didn't update their ads. I also considered the fact that it may just be a ploy to make the animals more desireable. I mean it certainly made me act quicker to get the trio since it was the last trio they had available. Again, I wasn't dissatisfied so no reason to post such. -Chris

This ad sounds like the one to which I replied and purchased 1.1 of the 1.2. I also recall seeing the ad running for several weeks after I received my order in the first week of November 2004.

The clouds are still darkening over my eggs.

Today is day 20 incubating 7 eggs from TSE "het Pied x het Pied".

 

[Cat_72]

WOW.....
It's scary / depressing to see more and more people starting to come forward and stating that they have not received what they paid for, and we're not talking about a couple hundred dollars. How far has this gone???
Mike Derks

We'll probably never have any true figure as to how far it's really gone.

 

[Chameleon Company]

OK, with some of these recent revelations about ads lingering long after the advertised animals were purchased (crook or not, really sloppy), do we have a member out there who responded to an ad for anything het, and was told "I'm sorry, they just sold, and I've been so busy I haven't had the time to take the ad down yet"?

 

[tejasranger]

Zach, I think you forgot well-placed finger quotes so I'll add them and agree with your statement:

"Thank you for your """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""contribution""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" to the hobby, Chris!"

It's so nice that you've not only trashed your own reputation, but other reptile breeders and hobbyists that sell via the internet, too. I'd like to personally thank you for all of your """"""""""""""""efforts"""""""""""""""""" in trashing the reptile hobby. You must be very proud.

I have the same feeling as Zach, and Connie. I was just thinking the other day,"If I get my money back I am going to purchase another 1.1 het pied, but I'm only going to buy from Peter Kahl. While there certainly isn't anything wrong with buying from Peter, I realized that I had totally excluded every small Breeder and Hobbyist in the business, because I am gun-shy. How unfair is that for all the hundreds of straight shooters out there doing the right thing day after day. Unfortunately this will be the longest lasting damage done to this industry. Armed with an overwhelmingly positive Good Guy Rating, Chris was able to deceive ?dozens? of people who thought TSE might be a safe alternative to the Really Big breeders. The truth is that integrity and a good reputation can't be seen or felt over the internet. I wish I knew the answer.

 

[repfriend]

It certainly DOES seem to be an elaborate (if not very well thought out) plan.

Just look at it...there were several instances in which Chris started to "exit out"...but then, I guess the incoming money was to good not to keep this up a bit longer.

Someone mentioned that he (Chris) was sick and his employers behind ...blahblah 16 month ago !!!

Then we had the strange fire/thermostat failure that cost Chris anywhere between 50,000 to 150,000 in animals. Strangely enough, he never filed insurance , he didn't even return the thermostat to the retailer (who offered to have it fixed).

I think that was another time when he was going to "exit".

But man, sure is nice when the thousands roll in on that paypal account.

So now we have the deathly ill Chris.

Going by my gut feeling on all that has transpired PLUS all the sickly snakes, I am sure that the hets aren't hets.

Everyone that purchased and hasn't gotten anything yet, should actively pursue a refund.

People that have previously purchased Hets should demand some more PROOF then a hatchlings pic. Come on, anyone can make a pic of a babysnake, duh.

Where is the pic of each snakes PARENTS. Their ID numbers , ANYTHING.

What a con.

 

[Cat_72]

People that have previously purchased Hets should demand some more PROOF then a hatchlings pic. Come on, anyone can make a pic of a babysnake, duh.

Where is the pic of each snakes PARENTS. Their ID numbers , ANYTHING.

Anyone, really, can take pictures of an albino or pied or whatever as well....or make up an ID number. When it comes right down to it, there is absolutely NO foolproof way to buy a het, other than how much you can trust the seller.

 

[Lucille]

The truth is that integrity and a good reputation can't be seen or felt over the internet. .

I disagree.
Because of the way he treated others I would not have bought from Chris.

There are people on this board that I know are people of integrity. Kelli, Rich, Wendy, Mike G., and so many others.

There is always a risk in any human interaction, but I KNOW these people and others like them are fine, worthy people that I would send money to.
I have seen their honesty in their postings here, in the way they have comported themselves, in the way they respond to the little things as well as the big things in life.
Chris was not like that, he hurt people and seemingly enjoyed it from the getgo.

Integrity lives.

 

[tejasranger]

"Death of a Scammer" - The Final Act



I think Chris may have been cheated out of his "Grand Finale". I had expected that any day now we would get a posting from Glenn "Alas poor Chris, we knew him Patrick." that Chris had past on to his final reward, and Pat/Glenn/Sybil/the -ex/Chris (Oh I forgot He's dead) where too overcome with grief to continue his good works in making everything right. Who in this hour of dispair could think of "Shipping, Shipping, Shipping". Only to find out years later he is living in a cardboard box in ClearWater, FL with the ex "-the ex" under the assumed name of Tiny Johnson. Stranger things have happened.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

It is for this very reason,

why one has to follow the money trail. He could have very easily converted the cash, ( and possibly plenty of it) into real estate, or other tangible items that can only be examined by tax returns. It is for this reason why , when 3 creditors force bankruptcy, they have an opportunity to have their attorny's examine tax returns that may go back several years to see if their is any money laundering. The IRS or state people of course are interested in unverified income, which is another headache you dont want to deal with.

But thats what this seems to be leading to when the question is asked, What happened to the money? Also, please understand that the only benefit the buyer may receive whether they received snakes or not is to claim a legitimate loss on their own tax return, which can be substantial to some degree. Just hold on to your paperwork, and copy whatever emails Chris sent on this forum.

 

[tejasranger]

I disagree.
Because of the way he treated others I would not have bought from Chris.

There are people on this board that I know are people of integrity. Kelli, Rich, Wendy, Mike G., and so many others.

There is always a risk in any human interaction, but I KNOW these people and others like them are fine, worthy people that I would send money to.
I have seen their honesty in their postings here, in the way they have comported themselves, in the way they respond to the little things as well as the big things in life.
Chris was not like that, he hurt people and seemingly enjoyed it from the getgo.

Integrity lives.

Lucille,
I am not trying to impune the integrity of anyone, other than Chris. But the difference is that you have establish these relationships over time. The fact remains that at the time, Chris@TSE had a good Guy Rating of 67:1 when I decided to trust the poll and purchase. Hindsight is always 20/20. If you had these premonitions based on the way he treated others, why for God's sake didn't you speak up? Again an example of the danger of silence. You seem to lack that "Killer Instinct", and that is an admirable way to live your life, and as I have said before, there is a special place in heaven for you. and here goes that all important "but", if I was looking for a Lawyer, give me one with that "Killer Instinct".

 

[Casey Hulse]

So here we go. Out on a limb with one explanation. Pure speculation on my part, but for many of us who have seen this in other venues, it is one possible answer that fits like a glove. Just a guess, mind you, but it explains all. And I do mean all. Call me a schmuck. Cocaine.

Very possible. I suspect the same thing.
I suggest anyone who has dealt with Chris in the past, and has a "pricey" collection may want to "bar the doors".

 

[Lucille]

Lucille,
I am not trying to impune the integrity of anyone, other than Chris. But the difference is that you have establish these relationships over time. The fact remains that at the time, Chris@TSE had a good Guy Rating of 67:1 when I decided to trust the poll and purchase. Hindsight is always 20/20. If you had these premonitions based on the way he treated others, why for God's sake didn't you speak up? Again an example of the danger of silence. You seem to lack that "Killer Instinct", and that is an admirable way to live your life, and as I have said before, there is a special place in heaven for you. and here goes that all important "but", if I was looking for a Lawyer, give me one with that "Killer Instinct".

I had no 'premonitions' Bob, I simply do not deal with people like that. I am not faulting thos who did purchase, I am saying that I don't purchase from abusive people. And, I am saying that after time, I have seen people I would trust, but yes it did take the time to see them.

And after your last comment I would not deal with you either, because the comment was not called for. You sound like Chris.