Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

[nicolai]

You are boarding the point of trolling me dont you think, also your taking this focus of this thread away from what ist is about. "off topic posting". lets get back to the topic please.

 

[tejasranger]

You are boarding the point of trolling me dont you think, also your taking this focus of this thread away from what ist is about. "off topic posting". lets get back to the topic please.

Boarding the point of trolling you? What are you talking about? Do you by chance mean "Bordering on the point of baiting you"? No I am just trying to guide you back to this side of reality, Where a business meets their commitments in a timely manner, returns phone calls, keeps smarmy comments out of their emails, and values their customers. Kind of like a Bizzaro TSE.

 

[viridisnakes]

Repost from TSE customer

I am new to the BOI so if this is not allowed please delete the previous post.. nicolia has continued to focus the attention away from TSE to him. Nic. Please post responses to current posts. You have a connection to TSE we get it!

Does any one have an answer to the following questions..

I think the most important question which has not been answered is.....

Does TSE breed all the Ball Python Morphs they sell?
Who has seen their collection? Albino, Caramels, Clowns, etc. Have you seen clutches and eggs in their incubator? Do the animals they have seem to support the number of animals they are stating are being sold? Hundreds?

They have been selling these morphs for at least a couple years, can any breeder confirm that they sold a High Contrast Albino, Clown or any high end morph to Chris Johnson of TSE that would lend creadence that they are the breeders of the morphs being sold? I ask this as this has been asked so many times with no response, I would like to at least see a "round about" attempt way to answer.

With every thing that has transpired it would seem awefully prudent for TSE or Chris to respond with some proof.

Has any one else requested the following before and after purchase:
1. Pictures of the baby(s) they have purchased
2. Pictures of the adults (parents)
3. Hatch Date of animal purchased
4. Current weight of the animal purchased

Does any one here, customer or supplier feel that these are unreasonable requests?
Does anyone feel that this is essentially needed/required in the sale of HET ball pythons!

If this info is requested over a three month period and not supplied..What would most people construe this behaviour? I mean these are many $1000s snakes, not hatchling veiled chameleons

A google search of these questions will reveal at least two other threads on other sites with this concern. I also will state that the follow up quotes were exactly the same as here on the BOI, basically "TSE has a great reputation don't be questioning?"

For anyone else who made an inquirey about BP morphs...
what was the initial response? Was it something like this...
"yes we still have X.X 100% XXXX het ball pythons left, we are in negotiations with another party for these so please check with us before ordering. I have seen this in two other threads.

Did any one else notice the TSE ads on KS change from Decemeber 2005 to today? According to TSE they have stayed exactly the same, NO CHANGE!!!!!
Did it make any one else uncomfortable that you had purchase the last XXXXX 100% het only to see them still available in later ads?

Did any one else find them very available before your purchase..Quick responses, pick up the phone, only to have no more communication after purchase.

I would also like to add that.

What does TSE and Chris J think people will feel when people have sent them $1000s of dollars and seen rude or no responses and then go to see everything that has been discussed on this thread.

I hate to say it but what has done has made us all sick with concern.

Yes I have tried to contacted Chris about these questions and descrepancies with my purchase. I also contacted TSE to talk with Chris about my email to him. They told me that was a waste as the deal did not involve Chris.

This whole situation has made me sick!

Chris Rouille
Tucson, AZ

 

[nicolai]

As the original poster on this thread I am a little embarrassed at what it has become. After a couple of PM's with Chris, We have resolved our differences, and my snakes will arrive tomorrow. Pat and Glenn are another story. I never thought that this thread would become a launching pad for accusations of the sort that have been posted. and for that Chris I apologize.

you sure changed your tune !!!!!

 

[tejasranger]

Another $64,000 question is:
Has anyone proven out any TSE 100% het BP's? This has been ask before, but never answered.

 

[tejasranger]

you sure changed your tune !!!!!

No as I said before, Pat and Glenn Shelton are another story. By the way since you have a keen insight into the inner workings of TSE. Are Pat and Glenn brothers or are they married? Just curious.

 

[nicolai]

Viridisnakes : I just checked and there are pics of his breeders on the forum site in the photo gallery. albinos, high contrast albinos,pastels,bullseye pastels mojaves,spiders, I dont know what the rest are. I'm Not an expert in ball pythons. But thier all there with his name on them.

 

[Bob Kite]

Does TSE breed all the Ball Python Morphs they sell?

I can not tell you for sure, what I can tell you is, the paperwork I received with my animals says and I quote "Top Shelf Exotics certifies that the above specimen was produced in our facility. The signature below certifies this document. Gaurantees regarding genetics or health are null and void upon transfer of this specimen unless we are notified or mediate said transfer of ownership."

 

[nicolai]

just curious, whose signature was on that document? and was it sent with a picture??

 

[The BoidSmith]

"Top Shelf Exotics certifies that the above specimen was produced in our facility. The signature below certifies this document. Gaurantees regarding genetics or health are null and void upon transfer of this specimen unless we are notified or mediate said transfer of ownership."

just curious, whose signature was on that document? and was it sent with a picture??

If there is a picture ID of the animal that clearly identifies him I don't see why the guarantee would be void once the animal is sold to another person. Most breeders/sellers of morphs keep talking about "investing" in quality morphs. What kind of an investment would it be if it is not backed-up by the original breeder? If it can be unequivocally identified, of course.

Thanks

 

[Bob Kite]

just curious, whose signature was on that document? and was it sent with a picture??

It's not very legible, but if I had to take a gues I would say it was Pat Shelton, and yes, there is a pic on each document.

 

[The BoidSmith]

It's not very legible, but if I had to take a gues I would say it was Pat Shelton, and yes, there is a pic on each document.

In MHO that guarantee needs to be modified, although that’s up to TSE. If there is a picture ID attached with the document and IF the animal is 100% identifiable, why would the guarantee be void with the transfer of ownership? Does sex change when animal is sold? No. Well genetics doesn’t either! Does this mean that if TSE is not producing some of the heterozygous they sell those also fall under these terms? In all honesty I don’t mind TSE selling heterozygous animals from another breeder as long as their genetics is guaranteed by them. A good example of how to handle this situation is that of the Sutherlands (ballpython.com). They have an on-line database where one can check the picture and ID # of the animal being offered to you and verify for yourself if it’s the same animal. Although they are not stating in their terms that they are responsible for the genetics of their animals when they are transferred between different owners, they are giving the buyer the chance to verify the authenticity of the claim by looking at the information in their database.

 

[Cat_72]

Here is a scan of the het paperwork I got with one of the 04's I got from TSE last year. She is pushing 1000g now, so will be more than big enough to "prove out" next year, I'm sure.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Thanks Cathy for posting that guarantee. The picture is perfect and an animal with such distinctive markings should be able to be properly identified all his life. Of course it's up to TSE to write their guarantees as they see fit. But the guarantee states that if Cathy decides to sell that snake to me there will be no genetic guarantee (???). As a buyer I wouldn’t feel very reassured. Who am I going to go with my claims if the snake doesn't prove out? Cathy? She had nothing to do with it as she just purchased the animal from TSE. According to those terms that snake would be sold "as is" with no-one to guarantee its genetics. Cathy can only go by what the paperwork says. But the paperwork in turn clearly states that TSE will not guarantee the genetics to the second buyer. Am I making any sense?

 

[Cat_72]

I understand what you are saying completely....I will say I was a bit taken aback when I originally received the paperwork with that statement on it. Of course, I don't ever plan on selling her.....but if nothing else, this thread has made me think about needing a "plan B", just in case.

 

[jglass38]

Thanks Cathy for posting that guarantee. The picture is perfect and an animal with such distinctive markings should be able to be properly identified all his life. Of course it's up to TSE to write their guarantees as they see fit. But the guarantee states that if Cathy decides to sell that snake to me there will be no genetic guarantee (???). As a buyer I wouldn’t feel very reassured. Who am I going to go with my claims if the snake doesn't prove out? Cathy? She had nothing to do with it as she just purchased the animal from TSE. According to those terms that snake would be sold "as is" with no-one to guarantee its genetics. Cathy can only go by what the paperwork says. But the paperwork in turn clearly states that TSE will not guarantee the genetics to the second buyer. Am I making any sense?

Weird situation here. Of course it is possible that it could take multiple tries to prove her out. What happens if Fred buys it from Cathy and he tries 2 years in a row to prove her out. He hits the unlucky lottery and gets no homo animals. IF TSE doesn't have that clause, Fred now goes to TSE and starts complaining, possibly starts a BOI thread and tries to ruin their rep. It seems to me, right or wrong, that TSE is trying to protect themselves from a future owner. Or I could be way off...

 

[Lucille]

I understand what you are saying completely....I will say I was a bit taken aback when I originally received the paperwork with that statement on it. .

A limitation of warranty is an important change to a contract. If this was not something you agreed to upon purchase, you may object by giving notice.

Whether this notice was given within a reasonable time is a question of fact, but if it is found to be a reasonable time, the contract of sale including the implied warranties consist of what you actually expressly agreed upon, and the additional terms are not part of the contract.

One can in fact exclude warranties in a contract, and if it would be found that you have waited too long to say anything it may be assumed that you assented to this inclusion and can no longer object.

Were I to get a piece of paper like that for a high dollar snake if I had not agreed to the limitation I would object strenuously and in writing.

 

[Cat_72]

A limitation of warranty is an important change to a contract. If this was not something you agreed to upon purchase, you may object by giving notice.

Whether this notice was given within a reasonable time is a question of fact, but if it is found to be a reasonable time, the contract of sale including the implied warranties consist of what you actually expressly agreed upon, and the additional terms are not part of the contract.

One can in fact exclude warranties in a contract, and if it would be found that you have waited too long to say anything it may be assumed that you assented to this inclusion and can no longer object.

Were I to get a piece of paper like that for a high dollar snake if I had not agreed to the limitation I would object strenuously and in writing.

As they say, hindsight is always 20/20, Lucille, lol. As I said, I was taken aback when I first read it, but after pondering on it, decided it was no big deal since I have no intentions of reselling them. I guess I hadn't thought much more about it.

Looking ahead, we can never say what will come up, and I cannot predict that nothing will ever happen that would force me to sell some or all of my collection..........and perhaps I should have questioned it at the time. One can only hope that if the unforeseen were to arise, with the picture ID of the snake, there would be no issues with resale.

 

[viridisnakes]

Did any one request photos prior to shipment?

Did you receive them? Did you ask and recieve receive hatch date and current weight prior to shipment?

Didn't anyone want to choose their specific animal.

I mean you have a photo of animal stated to be "het". Why wasn't that photo available prior to shipment? Are the photos only taken right prior to shipment? Does that sound reasonable?

Again. Does anyone find it unreasonable to ask for baby and parent photos, hatch date, and current weights prior to purchase and prior to purchase of a $1500 snake. Does any one here think that could be accompished in a three month period, ESPCIALLY since they were promised in January after purchase.

How is it that no one has seen this collection. It sounds to be an amazing collection right? Is there no one in New York state that is into Ball Pythons that have made a BP purchase at TSE and saw their operation. Is there no one?????????????

Also did any one else notice their ad for Ball Pythons on KS change from December to April??????

Listen I am not trying to be a jerk here. I waited through months of no or very few replies, with responses that were different from the what was being presented on KS. With 30 days that met the TSE TOS. I then see all of this communication about what is going on. On a ball python net site there are two other individuals(TSE customers) who also wanted pictures, hatch date and current weights they also have had no response. And yes TSE has now contacted me to ship and I replied with the questions from my original post. I was told that I am only going to make my shipment take longer if I want any answers.

Take care,
Chris Rouille

 

[Cat_72]

Did any one request photos prior to shipment?

Did you receive them? Did you ask and recieve receive hatch date and current weight prior to shipment?

Didn't anyone want to choose their specific animal.

I mean you have a photo of animal stated to be "het". Why wasn't that photo available prior to shipment? Are the photos only taken right prior to shipment? Does that sound reasonable?

Again. Does anyone find it unreasonable to ask for baby and parent photos, hatch date, and current weights prior to purchase and prior to purchase of a $1500 snake. Does any one here think that could be accompished in a three month period, ESPCIALLY since they were promised in January after purchase.

How is it that no one has seen this collection. It sounds to be an amazing collection right? Is there no one in New York state that is into Ball Pythons that have made a BP purchase at TSE and saw their operation. Is there no one?????????????

Also did any one else notice their ad for Ball Pythons on KS change from December to April??????

Listen I am not trying to be a jerk here. I waited through months of no or very few replies, with responses that were different from the what was being presented on KS. With 30 days that met the TSE TOS. I then see all of this communication about what is going on. On a ball python net site there are two other individuals(TSE customers) who also wanted pictures, hatch date and current weights they also have had no response. And yes TSE has now contacted me to ship and I replied with the questions from my original post. I was told that I am only going to make my shipment take longer if I want any answers.

Take care,
Chris Rouille

Let me see if I can answer some of your questions. In no way am I taking anyone's side in this (besides my own, I guess, lol).

No, I did not ask for photos to choose the animals I ordered. I can understand a larger operation not taking photos of individual hets, as they do just appear "normal". Yes, if I were selling hets, I would offer individual pics, but I am working on a much smaller scale than TSE is said to be. The parent photos fit in the same category...if your baby is chosen for you on the day it is shipped, it's pretty difficult to send out parent pics before then.

I did ask for weights, and was given a close "weight range", but I did not ask for exact hatch dates. Again, I would assume if someone is dealing with a large number of outwardly normal animals, they more than likely would just grab the correct sexed hets on shipping day, not pick an individual snake out and put each person's name on it 3 months before shipping. Again, not how I would do it, but it is understandable. I did ask for exact hatch dates after I received the individually numbered animals, and was given such. I DO, however, fully expect to receive the '05 animals I paid for when I ordered in February, not new hatch '06 animals.

Did you ask for all of this information before you paid for it? If you feel you need to have this, and don't receive it, I would go elsewhere to someone who has the time to do all of these things. If they are preparing to ship your order......and you paid for it before asking all of these questions, I would say just let them ship it. I'm not sure what exactly you think asking all of these questions NOW will do?

As for anyone seeing the TSE collection, I can't answer that, I simply don't know if anyone here has seen them. And no, I didn't really notice any significant changes in their ads, other than the creepy "eyeball" looking pic they put up saying, "Are we mad???"

Like I said, I'm not by any means trying to take anyone's side here....just trying to give you some possible answers to your questions.