Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

[Lucille]

As they say, hindsight is always 20/20, Lucille, lol.

What I hope is that next year the snake proves out properly for you. I guess the substance of my legal rambling (I can't help myself ) was more for the future, and for anyone who gets a limitation like that, that they were not expecting, that they should take immediate action in writing to preserve their objection.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Chris,

Your requests are not unreasonable at all.

Did any one request photos prior to shipment?

Pictures in advance are always a must, even for a $200 snake, let alone for a $1,500 one. A picture gives me an idea of the body condition of the animal and for specific markings that and traits I’m looking for even in a normal-looking heterozygous.

Did you receive them? Did you ask and recieve receive hatch date and current weight prior to shipment?

Hatch date is important to know if the animal has a size/weight that corresponds with its age. I’ve passed on several deals because there was a mismatch between the age and the size suggesting that the animal was not raised properly or was a finicky eater.

Didn't anyone want to choose their specific animal.

Yes for all of the above. In general I’m not buying a “generic” animal, particularly if I’m willing to pay $1,500 for it.

Again. Does anyone find it unreasonable to ask for baby and parent photos, hatch date, and current weights prior to purchase and prior to purchase of a $1500 snake.

No, not unreasonable at all, and in fact highly recommended.

Does any one here think that could be accompished in a three month period, ESPCIALLY since they were promised in January after purchase.

Yes and it doesn’t matter how many animals they sell. It’s the quality of the animals they are offering. I have bought from several high end breeders, ALL of them provided me with pictures of the animal I was about to receive.

How is it that no one has seen this collection. It sounds to be an amazing collection right? Is there no one in New York state that is into Ball Pythons that have made a BP purchase at TSE and saw their operation. Is there no one?????????????

Breeders of high end animals don’t like strangers visiting their collections mainly because of two issues. One is bio-security, you don’t want to introduce disease and or parasites (e.g. mites) that can travel in the clothes of a visitor. Secondly because of security issues as there have been several cases in the past of breeders that have been robbed right after someone visited their operation. The visitor in question can be trustworthy but someone that might heard the comments on the high end animals that are housed in their facilities might not be.

Also did any one else notice their ad for Ball Pythons on KS change from December to April??????

I’m not sure what changes you are referring to.

Regards

 

[Junkyard]

Again. Does anyone find it unreasonable to ask for baby and parent photos, hatch date, and current weights prior to purchase and prior to purchase of a $1500 snake. Does any one here think that could be accompished in a three month period, ESPCIALLY since they were promised in January after purchase.

I have noticed that many sellers do not offer this information unless it is asked for, I have also seen many sellers offer this info generously without being asked. Does it take three months to get this info, of course not, this info should be given in one e-mail, usually the first. If a buyers knows what they want, they will ask all these questions right off the bat, if it is not given to them they move on. Though sellers should also be aware that there are people who do not know what the right questions are and the sellers should anticipate that. That is my opinion.

If I am willing to wait three months for an animal, I would be asking for new current weights before the animal is shipped. That way I can check when I receive the animal and see what growth the animal had since I first inquired about it. Those saved e-mails can come in handy.

Also did any one else notice their ad for Ball Pythons on KS change from December to April??????

What is your concern here? People get new animals in, they sell animals they don't want anymore, things change quickly in 4 months. They may have even had new eggs hatch in March.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

although I am totally

ignorant about Ball python morphs and paper works, but I do have a few questions. If these are investment purchases, why does the breeder , (I am assuming its TSE) only allow the snake to be genetically guaranteed for breeding as opposed to selling. What if I buy to sell ! Why are their any limitations on a guaranteed sex, captive bred, or accurate morph % on breeding but negates selling unless TSE does not actually breed them in the first place. Secondly, how do other top breeders deal with this problem. I know when I was into high ended geckos, I would have no problem in having the buyer use my name as the seller. It would only benefit me in the long run.

Here it appears that TSE not only will not guarantee beyond the first buyer, but again attempts to assume no responsibility on their own snake . People do buy with the intention of breeding, but how does this effect the offspring when parentage is concerned if no guarantees of genetics go beyond the first buyer.

 

[Cat_72]

After re-reading my post (and subsequesnt posts by Dan and Michael) I wish to re-iterate that I was just trying to give possible insight into the way things are sometimes done.....not necessarily the way things SHOULD be done.

My first purchase from TSE was going on "faith" with their stellar references at the time, and I was pleased with my animals. This purchase was based on my previous purchases. Today, would I buy from someone I didn't know without any information whatsoever? Highly doubtful.

 

[weostan]

Here is my problem, I got immediate response from TSE when I was a perspective customer. I emailed before placing an order about availablitity and sizes and received emails both times within a 12 hour period. As soon as I placed my order and they received my money I can no longer get responses from them in a timely manner. I got a email from them the day I sent paypal payment stateing that they would process my order tuesday after the Easter holiday and would contact me with my shipping info. I assumed since they have had my payment for 6 days before that date I would have hear something from them. I have to email them 5 times to get one email several days later with a generic response that other people are getting. Such as Fedex limiting their daily shipments to 20 small or medium boxes. Even if that is true there are other shipping companies availiable to them. How am I to trust their customer service when I cannot even get them to answer a specific question about a order already placed. Why should I now believe that they are actually going to ship me HET albino pair. Not that I have any reason to think that, but their customer service makes me wonder. It seems like dealing with two different companies before and after making payment.

 

[TomO]

What an interesting commentary on the state of the herp industry. While I claim no experience in the business-side of this field other than as a buyer, I can't help but notice (IMO) the generally lower threshold for acceptable business practices in some segments of this hobby/business. (When compared with other business)
While I wish Chris a speedy recovery, I also wish a recovery of the basic expectations of acceptable business practices here.
To accept responsibility for poor customer service, long delays, alienating customers, etc, and work to correct it is one thing. To defend this as acceptable (for whatever reason), IMO, represents a further lowering of the bar.
This makes me all the more thankful for the fine folks I have dealt with in this hobby who do represent it well.
Please realize that this is a commentary on the content of this entire thread and how various opinions have been represented; no more.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

It is for this reason

that some type of regulation is necessary. Not for the 4 legged animals, but for the 2 legged ones.

 

[Lucille]

that some type of regulation is necessary. Not for the 4 legged animals, but for the 2 legged ones.

Jerry:

I do not agree with more than the very minimum of government regulation of reptiles, because it is my opinion that once the gov. gets going they can easily over regulate. See for instance, the total prohibitions of keeping reptiles in some jurisdictions.

I agree with you that some type of oversight is necessary, and to me, the BOI helps fulfill that role. When business practices or husbandry practices come up short, and those practices are brought to light here, there can be economic sanctions in the form of declining sales when some people choose not to deal with businesses that do not conform to their own ideas of minimum standards.

The advantage of the BOI is that the offended party tells their story from their viewpoint, and others who know either the party or the vendor can corroborate or disagree with what is said.

Sometimes even the best vendors have an off day. The way the vendor deals with a mishap says a lot about their integrity.
In addition, if someone brings a complaint here and all of a sudden their are multiple people who chime in with similar complaints, that gives prospective purchasers a way to judge future purchases also.

I myself think that the personal choice of purchasers applying economic sanctions in free enterprise is one of the most powerful persuaders known; more immediate than government rulings and less likely to be covered up or manipulated by the legal system.

 

[The BoidSmith]

There needs to be some sort of regulation although I agree with Lucille, it should be handled by the private sector and leave the government agencies out of it. For those of you that haven't visited the General Business Sections lately, would you please go to the following link and give your opinion on the thread and poll?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78987

What does this have to do with this and other threads? Everything! We might be able to change the face of this whole business/industry shortly (mainly referring to heterozygous animals). There's no doubt there will be people that will not like it and will resist the change. The great majority though will certainly embrace it, particularly those that don't have the benefit of being the "big fish in the pond" but still want to work with honesty.

Thanks.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

When I mentioned

regulation, I was not referring to animal regulation, but business regulation. I like to know whom I am dealing with. It provides me a more informed method of making decisions when either buying or selling from someone.

We live in ,a sensitive time in this day and age where privacy issues even prevent simple disclosures other than in public records. I cannot attempt to search each person in each state as to verification ,that they are in fact a legal business. To many people hide behind fake names , addresses, emails, to make it very difficult to know exactly whom we are deaing with. So for me the answer is simple. Have some type of regulatory body provide the barest of information such as the owners name, legal address, whether they are acting as an individual or business and whatever pertinent information is necessary in order to get a licence which as a privlidge will identify whom we are dealing with when conducting business in this industry that relates to living organisms. You would be surprised as to how many people would welcome some control as opposed to blind faith , which is the order of the day in many cases of purchases.

 

[nicolai]

What an interesting commentary on the state of the herp industry. While I claim no experience in the business-side of this field other than as a buyer, I can't help but notice (IMO) the generally lower threshold for acceptable business practices in some segments of this hobby/business. (When compared with other business)
While I wish Chris a speedy recovery, I also wish a recovery of the basic expectations of acceptable business practices here.
To accept responsibility for poor customer service, long delays, alienating customers, etc, and work to correct it is one thing. To defend this as acceptable (for whatever reason), IMO, represents a further lowering of the bar.
This makes me all the more thankful for the fine folks I have dealt with in this hobby who do represent it well.
Please realize that this is a commentary on the content of this entire thread and how various opinions have been represented; no more.

I am not defending anyone, everything I have said on this thread was about people sticking to the facts. As far as lowering the "bar", when was it considered lowering the bar to stick to the facts and stick to ones beliefs. I will be the first to admit that TSE needs to change thier way of business when dealing with their customers. I will also admit it is poor business ethics to leave your customers hanging when you have their money. I dont think anyone on this thread has said that TSE current situation is acceptable, but rather just the opposite.


Tom - wasnt it you that posted this elsewhere:

The last snake I bought (not from TSE) was paid for on Nov 7th, but not shipped until Dec 19th. I was glad to wait for better temps, both in the interest of the snake and in securing my investment. In fact, I see that as a testament to the knowledge and care of the breeder, and he will have more business from me in the future. The other side of the coin is that there have been so many people ripped off that people get suspicious very easily. Of course, good communication usually helps any situation involviong trust.

Dan (boidsmith), your idea about the "Insurance" might very well have some merit in the reptile industry in the state it is these days. Peace of mind always has a value to it.

Lucille - your knowledge of laws and regulations has aamzed me. Maybe you should have a "ASK LUCILLE" forum for people that have specific contractual and legal issues they could use your advice on. You may be able to help a lot of people that might not be able to find the answers to their questions elsewhere.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Just to provide some further

information, here in the state of Fla. unlicenced contractors are liable for felony charges if caught conducting business without a licence. Due to the influx of preditors who try to get money in advance from people who have had hurrican related damages or fixing home related items such as roofs, screen enclosures, driveways, etc. If in the case of out of state contractors entering Fla for the purpose of doing business on a temp. basis, special licesnces are provided, but the bottom line is some type of regulation so we know who these people are, limit fraud, and make someone responsible for the business they are providing. Sounds familiar!

Thats what we need across the board in the herp industry. Some kind of regulation that provides some legal avenues that gives the honest person a chance to buy without fear of knowing whom they are dealing with. No licence, no business! its that simple. The days of working from your home, disguised, hooded within counterfeit emails and locations , changing names more frequently than the weather, hopefully will become a thing of the past. We cannot clean our own industry, nor can we police the influx of people coming in for the quick buck, but we can control it to some extent. Although I guess it would take some earth shattering problem to convince everyone that this is the right direction that would protect the honest seller and buyer, I doubt it will come to pass, because people never learn.

 

[nicolai]

Thats what we need across the board in the herp industry. Some kind of regulation that provides some legal avenues that gives the honest person a chance to buy without fear of knowing whom they are dealing with. No licence, no business! its that simple. .

How would you implement it without the fear of the politicians taking it further and inhibiting the way we all do business now. The fear would be that the law makers would use the opportunity to get much stricker regulations passed where they aren't needed. We all know that they are more then willing to end our hobby all together due to the simple fact they don't understand or approve of our hobby.

 

[Lucille]

. No licence, no business! its that simple. .

Jerry,
I do not have expensive reptiles, but I have some bearded dragons that I hope will lay eggs this year. I have never successfully bred a reptile but it might be nice to have my beardies have a few babies. Likely, I would sell some of them.

Would you have someone like me have to go apply for a license just to sell a couple beardie babies? How costly would the license be? If you would not license individuals making a one time sale, where would you draw the line? Who would enforce? Would you give the licensing jurisdiction power to enter a private home to inspect and see the facilities?

 

[TomO]

Nicolai

Tom - wasnt it you that posted this elsewhere:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomO
The last snake I bought (not from TSE) was paid for on Nov 7th, but not shipped until Dec 19th. I was glad to wait for better temps, both in the interest of the snake and in securing my investment. In fact, I see that as a testament to the knowledge and care of the breeder, and he will have more business from me in the future. The other side of the coin is that there have been so many people ripped off that people get suspicious very easily. Of course, good communication usually helps any situation involviong trust.

What is your point? The delay in shipping was by mutual consent (I was a part of the decision), and not a suprise to me. Additionally, this transaction was not related to TSE, so I'm not sure what the relevance is... Unless you are trying to make a point about my business philosophy... or what...????? Please also note the length of the delay - far less than others have complained about here.

Why not let the current operators of the business in question defend their actions and explain their motivations? What is your stake in this?

Also, if you will notice, my comments were more relative to the climate around acceptable business practices, as portrayed in this thread, rather than a focused attack on TSE. I am also one who has left positive feedback for TSE on this site.

 

[Chameleon Company]

This thread has touched a lot of bases

I had a couple of thoughts and opinions I wanted to plant in here.

First off, my sympathies to Stan and Chris R. and any others who hinted at or directly raised the questions about hets from TSE proving out. I think it a valid question of any supplier of hets, and more-so when there are reasons for doubt raised in any aspect of a supplier's business absent a track record of proving-out. I have no reason to think that they are not true hets, but that and $1 will get you a cup of coffee for all I know. Stan and Chris, I could only hope that testimonials will be found that give you peace-of-mind, but maybe the bulk of hets that TSE has shipped haven't matured enough yet to verify things.

I have no problem with the decision of TSE to only guarantee genetics to the first buyer. I am not saying its the best business move, but it is their choice to make, and for potential buyers to judge them by. TSE's legal obligation (if proven not-het) would be limited to what with the first buyer? Just the purchase cost? ....many answers there. And to the second buyer who paid more for it? And the proof? Forums like this are the overwhelming first and best?) recourse.

I know there is an ongoing thread in the Business Forum about het guarantees. I know it was suggested in this thread that a buyer of hets that were proven to not be hets would have some civil litigation recourse. If all could be proven, I would agree. But it would take more than the word of the buyer saying "I bred this Albino (and the milkman snake did not sneak in there)to this het two years in a row, and I got nothing but visual normals ...". The "proof" controls that a judge (small claims) or jury would require (some huge lawsuit), even with genetic testing, would create a long-term boondoggle so as to make it highly impractical. Not impossible, but very difficult to justify pursuing from the financial viewpoint of the buyer.

The "buyer-beware" adage goes back millennium, for all the right reasons. And there is the BOI and other communication venues to help identify the good from the bad, and it will only grow in the coming years. My own perspective is that the number of purveyors of het-balls has grown exponentially in the last 2-3 years, and that the number of complaints about hets not being hets is due to mushroom in the next 1-2 years.

As before, I wish Chris and his business the quickest of recoveries. Not to make an excuse for the problems mentioned in this thread, but if TSE only bends, but does not break, through Chris' recovery ordeal, I would remind all that we know of, or have seen, worse when a key member in a small business goes down.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Lucille, the answer to your

question is this: regardless if you are an individual or someone who calls themselves a business, and wants to sell in the state of Fl. You better have a license!. No pet shop will buy from you unless your licensed. So that leaves you to deal with other individuals. They also require a license , and if they buy from you and neither of you have licenses then its a crime in Fl. Now as innocuous as selling baby bearded dragons , the herp is not the issue here, its basicall revenue for the state and Fla wants to know who is dealing with these animals. Not a big deal, they certainly have never knocked on my door. Most of the service oriented busiesses in Fla, especially here in So. Fla. have requirements for some license application. It helps the consumer allot. Not that a bad apple can slip through the cracks, but at least the consumer is less likely to get ripped off. A legal business does not want to loose their license. It should be that way with people who are looking to sell or buy herps with the intention of reselling.

Now once we move to the internet, then all bets are off because we now have placed ourselves at risk.

 

[Ian S.]

If I am willing to wait three months for an animal, I would be asking for new current weights before the animal is shipped. That way I can check when I receive the animal and see what growth the animal had since I first inquired about it. Those saved e-mails can come in handy.

QUOTE]
You got that right!

 

[JamesBryan]

Chris Johnson,

Just keep the ball pythons I sent to trade, sell them, and put the $$ towards your recovery efforts.