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Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

Chameleon Company said:
I am one that is mildly disappointed with the enthusiasm by which many of the "victims" are so ready to turn the "nail Chris" fund into a "compensate me" fund .... but its not my money anyway. To those salivating over the "compensation", you are guaranteeing the demise of any such fund in the future. Me me me me me.
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Jim,

Like you, I don't have a dog in this fight but honestly answer two simple questions for yourself. You needn't publish your thoughts:
  1. Dou you think that Chris has enough recoverable assets to make a civil suit worthwhile after the attorney takes his third plus expenses?
  2. Will paying a private attorney really move the criminal matter along any better than would the affected individuals pushing for same regularly on their own?
This schmuck was living in an apartment and probably has little to nothing to recover would be my guess. Any of the individuals involved could simply sue him in small claims court in their own county and get a judgement all their own that would follow him for as long as would a larger one. Such a judgement would likely net the same payout - ZERO. Total cost is $38 to do that in Virginia (maybe a few extra $$ because it would need to be served out of state) and no lawyer would be necessary. Judgement (default) would be more or less guaranteed as we all know the little prick would be a no show.

So maybe investing some cash and creating some real hets and morphs is not so unreasonable a way for "the group" to proceed.

In either event, your opinion, like mine and most posters in this nauseatingly lengthy thread, matters for bupkus here. That is, unless we have ponied up or been victims.
 
Jim O.,
Glad to see you notice. Way back when, I was in the group that preached that "you can't get blood out of a turnip" regarding Chris at TSE. My recent points have not been to continue with an exclusively civil litigation, as that was never a viable option, but rather to stay patient considering the potential of a criminal-fraud pursuit, and to use the fund to coat-tail a civil claim on it. While the "blood from a turnip" logic still prevails, it is still possible to make some "symbolic" gain against Chris's future earnings if there is a successful criminal prosecution. Many criminal convictions allow for input from the victims, in both sentencing and court mandated restitution. Will it ever put money into the pockets of the victims, even if Chris is made Bubba's boy-toy? Highly unlikely. We both know the system all-too-well, as does Jerry (sorry bro', but we need some credit for being in the latter half of our existence). I just don't agree with the concept of making it a "victim's" fund. The BOI is full of victims. The TSE victims are not a majority in the yearly process of people scammed here, they only represent a larger collective group than any other. The "fund" was a blow for righteousness, not compensation. IMO, it should remain a blow for righteousness, looking more at the long-term potential of the community attacking the "bad guys" rather than the short-term self-compensation idea which seems to have hijacked the fund. A true pleasure to offer an opposing view with you ... with complete sincerity.
 
Cat_72 said:
Um, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here, lol....but I will try to answer. :D

Bob obviously knows who all of the donors are. Their names never have to be brought into view of anyone but the person who contacts them and gets the OK or not OK to use their donation for the recuperation committee. From there they are given the choice to participate or not participate in the rest of the deal, if they choose to let the money remain in the fund. If they still want to remain completely anonymous it is their option. Anyone who does not want their money used in this manner can have their donation returned.

Did that help any? LOL.
Click to expand...
Yes, Sorta, :yesnod:
 
Chameleon Company said:
I am one that is mildly disappointed with the enthusiasm by which many of the "victims" are so ready to turn the "nail Chris" fund into a "compensate me" fund .... but its not my money anyway. To those salivating over the "compensation", you are guaranteeing the demise of any such fund in the future. Me me me me me.
Click to expand...
I completely agree, Jim.

As one who is directly involved and potentially a recipient of the benefits of the "compensation", I still think using these funds in this manner isn't the right thing to do, and has the potential to create even more problems and bad blood.

I know I didn't donate for the purpose of "compensating victims" (including myself). That being said, I'm not going to request my donations removed from the pool, but I won't be an active participant in the planning of this messy venture either.

I think if the fund isn't going to be used for the intended purpose, we should donate it to a worthy cause, such as PIJAC or the American Red Cross National Disaster Fund.
 
Chameleon Company said:
We both know the system all-too-well, as does Jerry (sorry bro', but we need some credit for being in the latter half of our existence).
Click to expand...
No need to apologize. I like getting old(er). It sure as heck beats the alternative... :p

Your point about victim impact statements at sentencing are well made. However, it is also possible there will be a deal made in advance in exchange for a plea, should criminal charges ever be brought to bear and all that will be accomplished is an occasion to tell Chris what we think to his face. The fund might well be used for airfare and accomodations should that arise, but again, not my call.
 
shep151 said:
I completely agree, Jim.

As one who is directly involved and potentially a recipient of the benefits of the "compensation", I still think using these funds in this manner isn't the right thing to do, and has the potential to create even more problems and bad blood.

I know I didn't donate for the purpose of "compensating victims" (including myself). That being said, I'm not going to request my donations removed from the pool, but I won't be an active participant in the planning of this messy venture either.

I think if the fund isn't going to be used for the intended purpose, we should donate it to a worthy cause, such as PIJAC or the American Red Cross National Disaster Fund.
Click to expand...
Zach, I think that is a very good option also :thumbsup: I personally think if we went that route anyone of them would get my vote. See thats why we need to get together and decide what these donations are going to be used for.I am open to any option that will help someone in the long run.
 
If this does NOT go forward, I believe that any funds collected should go directly back to the original donors, and nowhere else.
 
This is exactly why I have been hesitant to throw my opinion in the mix. There have been many ideas as to how these funds should be spent and no clear consensus as to who has ownership and management of the fund. I was hoping that this wouldn't turn out as convoluted as it has. If this doesn't get resolved by Friday the 15th I will be returning the contributions to the donors. So get to working together, or I'll do it for you.
 
The starting point is establishing who is in and who is out.

Send an email to each of the donors on the list. Let each know about the breeding project idea and ask if its ok with them to use the funds they donated for the project. Those you don't hear back from during a reasonable waiting period you send them back the money with a thank you note for its original intention. Just keep the communication to a simple yes or no. Either you want in the breeding project or you don't. Those that want to go ahead with the project are in and proceed to the next round of discussions.

If at this point in the game the idea of the project has become so complex and compelling enough to be abandoned then I would do just that and abandon it. Its going to take a tremendous effort, a great deal of patience and communication to see this project off the ground. By each additional message posted on this thread by those who are directly involved it really doesn't seem like those things are in great supply.

Now consider the future discussions on a reliable supplier for the animals, project home base, compensation for caging/space, food, veterinarian expenses, and slew of other project demands that will require documentation and greater detail that is going to draw away time from your own private collection. I mean you are technically being satisfied with the hope you will produce and receive what you had paid Chris for, but....you will be doing it for 20 or 30 demanding people.

With the harder parts of this that lay ahead, if you guys cant get past the "who's in and who's out" without any great frustration and thoughts of abandoning the project, you may as well just forget it and refund the money now.
 
If I'm not mistaken, their were other victims taken by Chris Johnsons scams which didn't involve ball pythons. If I remember correctly, earlier in this thread there were posts where someone was taken for a Mack Snow leopard gecko that they paid for but didn't receive. I guess my question is, how would the "Recuperation Committee" help those people that were ripped off for things other than BP morphs? Will the "Recuperation Committee" also be purchasing leopard gecko morphs to help those that have taken by TSE.

Jason Bryant
 
High End Herps Inc said:
This could be a coincidence, maybe not. I don't know how to do a screenshot so I just copy pasted the text on the page. But this user has the same last name as Chris, is from NY, is a similar age, the join date is mid June, when this thread was new, and he is watching this thread a lot.

Just struck me as awfully coincidental.


max54321
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Acually my real last name isnt even johnson when i first made my acount i used a differnt last name cuz i was concernd about id theft of people looking up. I whatch this thread alot cuz i bought a het from chris and would like to see him get what he deserves. My real name is Matthew Madigan. You can ask det. brown if im realy me.Isent him a depostion and a creditcard rececpt from my transaction. I can see how people would be looking for him.Good eye though.I would change my name but i couldnt find it in the controll pannel.
 
So is this other forum going to be created or is it still up in the air?

Also if it is, for those of us on the "We got stiffed" lists are we going to have to keep an eye on this thread to find out about the forum or will we be notified when it is up and running?

And third have there been any other clutches hatched out that didn't prove out? How many total now?

Thanks,

Tosha
 
critical bill said:
The starting point is establishing who is in and who is out.

Send an email to each of the donors on the list. Let each know about the breeding project idea and ask if its ok with them to use the funds they donated for the project. Those you don't hear back from during a reasonable waiting period you send them back the money with a thank you note for its original intention. Just keep the communication to a simple yes or no. Either you want in the breeding project or you don't. Those that want to go ahead with the project are in and proceed to the next round of discussions.

If at this point in the game the idea of the project has become so complex and compelling enough to be abandoned then I would do just that and abandon it. Its going to take a tremendous effort, a great deal of patience and communication to see this project off the ground. By each additional message posted on this thread by those who are directly involved it really doesn't seem like those things are in great supply.

Now consider the future discussions on a reliable supplier for the animals, project home base, compensation for caging/space, food, veterinarian expenses, and slew of other project demands that will require documentation and greater detail that is going to draw away time from your own private collection. I mean you are technically being satisfied with the hope you will produce and receive what you had paid Chris for, but....you will be doing it for 20 or 30 demanding people.

With the harder parts of this that lay ahead, if you guys cant get past the "who's in and who's out" without any great frustration and thoughts of abandoning the project, you may as well just forget it and refund the money now.
Click to expand...

Chuck,

This is exactly what we are trying to do. I mentioned previously that we needed to contact the contributors before we proceed too much further, and figure out where any of this stands. EMails have been sent to all that we had on the "lists" of either those who have received nothing, or purchased "hets", and an open invitation given to anyone who has not yet come forward to do so. As far as the contributors list, Bob England is the only one who currently has access to it, and he has not verified whether or not he has even contacted any of them, though the contributors that have sent emails to the recuperation_comittee email have been positive. We need to know where we stand on that aspect before even considering exactly how to proceed.

This is a good example of why this needs to be handled in a more private setting, IMO....the email communication that Derek and I have been doing is going very well, and everyone has been helpful, civil, and cooperative up to this point. In other words, it has been very productive to date. We really CAN work together on this, that has already been shown by the good folks who are already involved and have been helpful. It will take time and effort to get it all figured out, but if we continue to get the amount of positive supprt we have been getting, it will be just a matter of taking the time to get all of the details worked out. There are many good folks very committed to seeing this through, and this is apparent through more private channels. All we need to do is cut through the fluff.
 
ToshaMc said:
So is this other forum going to be created or is it still up in the air?

Also if it is, for those of us on the "We got stiffed" lists are we going to have to keep an eye on this thread to find out about the forum or will we be notified when it is up and running?

And third have there been any other clutches hatched out that didn't prove out? How many total now?

Thanks,

Tosha
Click to expand...

Tosha, I know you are on the list of those who got nothing. All on either that list or the list of those who purchased hets would indeed be notified if and when the forum is set up.

I know of 3 clutches for certain that hatched nothing but normals, by either het to het or het to visual breedings.....if there are more, I'm not sure.
 
I think what Jason was trying to point out was that their is more then just BP people that got scammed. It does seem to me that their is a lot of focus going with this in regards to BPs, while others that were scammed are being forgotten.
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
I think what Jason was trying to point out was that their is more then just BP people that got scammed. It does seem to me that their is a lot of focus going with this in regards to BPs, while others that were scammed are being forgotten.
Click to expand...
Steph, I really don't want to read this whole thing all over again , but did these people come forward in this thread ?? if so then I agree, but from the way this looking everyone may be walking away with nothing, sad but true.
 
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