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Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

Well, I for one am very pleased that at least SOMETHING has been done, and am thankful for the work that HAS been put into this. Sure, I'm disappointed that criminal charges are not forthcoming, but this is a start. It's far better than the nothing we thought we were going to be getting.

And if the DA didn't want to pursue the case to begin with, why on earth would the fact that they could have arrested him while the other things were going on that kept Detective Brown busy make any sense? I think Detective Brown did a wonderful job of doing what he could to help us, even if it meant not pursuing it criminally. At least he got SOMETHING done.
 
Cat_72 said:
Well, I for one am very pleased that at least SOMETHING has been done
Amen to that. Though I agree with what Sammy said:
shrap said:
But we can all feel better in knowing that if Chris had ripped off large corporations of just 1/10 the money he ripped off the common citizen for, he would have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
 
the only answer to that question is

why end up with a civil liability. The detective was brought in because when you go to the police it is usually for a crime. Thats not to say that they do not handle civil matters, but anything that is going to be moved up to the DAs office under normal circumstances would invite a grand jury indictment if it is warranted. Apparently that was not the case here.

I dont know what detective Brown did or did not do, but the end result is clear: Chris will not spend a day in jail ! Even a speeding ticket (which is a misdemeanor in NY) would give him more time than the fraud this guy committed.

I think at this point it will be very interesting to see if any complainants show up at the civil hearings. Their representations would be the State of NY. Lets see how this plays out. It ought to be interesting anyway.
 
At this point I don't think any of the complainants are planning to show up unless we are asked to do so. I made it very clear to detective Brown that several victims were willing to travel to show up in court. I was told thanks but it was not necessary at this time.

The first court date is 9/27/06 at 9:30am in Buffalo. I have spoken to the AG who is handling the case and although he appreciates knowing that some of you are willing to show up you are not needed at this time. If needed we will contact you. Please maintain a current email or home address with us. This is not to prevent anyone who wants to show up from doing so
 
their is no reason to show up,

basically because council would ask for a delay in the proceedings to familiarize himself with the case. Its very possible it may never even go to any kind of a court appearance other than an arrangement!

Once the DAs office finds out that Chris has filed for court protection through bankruptcy, it may be all over but the shouting! Postponements are common in these litigations. Eventually they get watered down to an administrative violation. Unfortunately !!
 
Well BOB, here I have to agree with you.

My glass is always have empty. A pessimist at heart. Almost a year has gone by, and what we have are some civil violations that in the end will be watered down once these attornies whittle down the charges to a plea bargain. No monies will be given back as a form of restitution, and Chris will have to leave the internet business as part of the deal or leave the reptile business for the next several years. A very fitting conclusion ........dont you agree!

I cannot understand why this man was not arrested. Nor can I understand why people were able to file complaints, document these depositions and Det. Brown (whom I think really owes this group some type of an explanation) explain how someone can steal money from people and get away with it.
Now let me explain something to you, granted I may not have lost any money, but fraud is fraud. I know the workings of the police dept and the court systems. When a crime is committed, it gets referred to the detective division. (excluding uniformed officers). Once a deposition is filed, the detective can and usually goes out and brings that person into the station house, gets fingerprinted, maybe photographed, and is usually held over for the first arraingment. That did not happen here! Their were at least a dozen depositons. So what went wrong?

The detective who was handling the case, could have had some major imput into the whole matter, and even with some pressure from outside sources, lilke the federal authorities, pursuade the DA's office to follow though with a felony. This was not an isolated situation, but a calculated plan to extort monies from people, , So what went wrong? We could not even get misdemenor charges filed!

No arrest, no indictment, and please do not tell me that the officer was so busy because of other police work such as escaped felons, etc. Its allot of nonsense. I know because I worked in the worst precinct in NYC, and even if the detectives were that busy, they would get uniformed officers to go to the persons home and make the arrest and bring him to the stationhouse for booking!

The bottom line is that this sends a very clear message to other copycats like Chris, that this is what you can expect in the herp industry. It infuriates me to see people send money in advance to someone and they just keep it! They dont give a dam about the senders concerns, dont provide the service, or the goods, and get away with fraud which is a crime in every state in this country.

Last year in Daytona , my booth was right across from NERDS, when one of his employees was arrested at the show, handcuffed and taken to the nearest stationhouse for booking. Bail had to be paid by NERD, and this poor guy had his family their as well. His big crime related to a misconstrued permit application over a baby snake that was on the table. I dont mind telling you it was a horrible experience to watch. Several other people their with their own booths were arrested as well. They committed no fraud, did not steal anything, but were arrested nevertheless and allowed the court system to deal with these matters. This should have been done with Chris as well. But it did not. So yes, I am not optimistic because this scenerio will repeat itself over and over again. No example has been set here other than a slap on the wrist. We both know that Chris could very easily get into this business again through other people and start all over again. This time, even if the police are notified that "he's at it again, its not going to make a dam bit of a difference" to the police, the DA's office or the court system.

Why you ask ? Because this is the Herp business ! Rampant with loosers who get attracted to free money, and it will continue to do so unless someone puts a stop to it.
 
KNOBTAIL said:
Rampant with loosers who get attracted to free money, and it will continue to do so unless someone puts a stop to it.

Gotta agree with that one.

Being a half empty sort of person myself, I can totally relate to you and what you are feeling. It's experiences like this that make things half empty instead of half full.

On the other side though. Even though I agree that he should be jailed, and most likely wont, I have seen some civil cases come out in good favor of the people who got took.
I wouldn't give up so easily about it. There is still that equal chance that things will work out for you guys.

Rick
 
Rick, I hope so.

I know that these attornies who handle these garbage people know all to well how to beat down the complainants. A simple example of having them appear in court and then asking for a new trial date or postponement. This happens all to often. Especially if the attorneys know that the complainants will be traveling. It only happens once! And the complainant never shows up again. The case gets weakened with each passing month and the case is diluted to the barest possible offense. Not what I would call a happy ending

Although you may be correct if the complainants voice their concern to the DA who is handling the case, and gets some assurances that he will be prosecuted to the fullest extent that is possible.

An example has to be set, otherwise it will just continue.
 
I agree with 99% of what you said Jerry. But it aint because it is the Herp Industry that Chris did not get prosecuted. It is because we are common citizens and not large corporations. If Chris would have defrauded Petco, PetSmart, ZooMed, etc he would have prosecuted him to the fullest extent of the law.
 
Sammy, I beg to differ with you.

had Chris defrauded people out their money and the item was precious stones, or if Chris sent fake diamonds as real ones. You could be assured of an arrest for fraud as well as theft of service. Here we have snakes, as the items in question. Now you tell me ! Is this something that warrants pursuit or somewhere someone thinks this has to be a joke!

Thats why these things cases end up in file 13. It is endemic that this industry is taken by the political community as an attraction for the hop heads of the world. Who in their right mind would buy or steal a snake!

It is for this reason, why here in Fla. when a simple violation occurs it ends up in an arrest. Its an overkill by the authority. But when you have a claim of theft or fraud, its looked at with roving eyes of ,"yea , give me a break" Thats why nothing will ever be done.

As far as I am concerned, it is inexcusable to charge Chris with a civil violation. Look at the Simpson ordeal. He was convicted in a civil court for civil rights violations including the death of 2 people. He got a 30 million dollar judgement against him, and they cannot collect. So what are the chances of the people who sent in their good money, in good faith and received nothing, their chances are NOTHING. As in the Simpson case, he went bankrupt, and so will Chris. Had it been criminal, he would not have been able to do that !
 
In my opinion Jerry makes a valid point. Every time snakes make it to the news is because something odd or freakish happened. As he ironically points out: “who in his right mind would buy or steal a snake”? We tend to think in terms of “normality” because we are inside looking out, but think for a moment in terms of those that are outside looking in. What do those who love furry little critters think about us when we spend hundreds of dollars in them only to be used as “food”? If there was a case of fraud against one of the big pet retailers and someone was charged with the crime rest assured it would be involving dogs, cats or maybe even bunnies. That’s why there’s a movie called “Snakes in a plane”, whereas no director in his right mind will ever film one with the title “Poochs in a plane”.

Regards.
 
Jerry

You are preaching to the choir.

But I still stand by what I said. No one stole a snake.... people were robbed of their money. And if Petco, PetSmart, ZooMed or any other large corporation would have had this much money taken in a fraudulent manner by Chris, he would have been criminally prosecuted. No question about it. That is all I am saying.
 
I agree

KNOBTAIL said:
My glass is always have empty. A pessimist at heart. Almost a year has gone by, and what we have are some civil violations that in the end will be watered down once these attornies whittle down the charges to a plea bargain. No monies will be given back as a form of restitution, and Chris will have to leave the internet business as part of the deal or leave the reptile business for the next several years. A very fitting conclusion ........dont you agree!

I cannot understand why this man was not arrested. Nor can I understand why people were able to file complaints, document these depositions and Det. Brown (whom I think really owes this group some type of an explanation) explain how someone can steal money from people and get away with it.
Now let me explain something to you, granted I may not have lost any money, but fraud is fraud. I know the workings of the police dept and the court systems. When a crime is committed, it gets referred to the detective division. (excluding uniformed officers). Once a deposition is filed, the detective can and usually goes out and brings that person into the station house, gets fingerprinted, maybe photographed, and is usually held over for the first arraingment. That did not happen here! Their were at least a dozen depositons. So what went wrong?

The detective who was handling the case, could have had some major imput into the whole matter, and even with some pressure from outside sources, lilke the federal authorities, pursuade the DA's office to follow though with a felony. This was not an isolated situation, but a calculated plan to extort monies from people, , So what went wrong? We could not even get misdemenor charges filed!

No arrest, no indictment, and please do not tell me that the officer was so busy because of other police work such as escaped felons, etc. Its allot of nonsense. I know because I worked in the worst precinct in NYC, and even if the detectives were that busy, they would get uniformed officers to go to the persons home and make the arrest and bring him to the stationhouse for booking!

The bottom line is that this sends a very clear message to other copycats like Chris, that this is what you can expect in the herp industry. It infuriates me to see people send money in advance to someone and they just keep it! They dont give a dam about the senders concerns, dont provide the service, or the goods, and get away with fraud which is a crime in every state in this country.

Last year in Daytona , my booth was right across from NERDS, when one of his employees was arrested at the show, handcuffed and taken to the nearest stationhouse for booking. Bail had to be paid by NERD, and this poor guy had his family their as well. His big crime related to a misconstrued permit application over a baby snake that was on the table. I dont mind telling you it was a horrible experience to watch. Several other people their with their own booths were arrested as well. They committed no fraud, did not steal anything, but were arrested nevertheless and allowed the court system to deal with these matters. This should have been done with Chris as well. But it did not. So yes, I am not optimistic because this scenerio will repeat itself over and over again. No example has been set here other than a slap on the wrist. We both know that Chris could very easily get into this business again through other people and start all over again. This time, even if the police are notified that "he's at it again, its not going to make a dam bit of a difference" to the police, the DA's office or the court system.

Why you ask ? Because this is the Herp business ! Rampant with loosers who get attracted to free money, and it will continue to do so unless someone puts a stop to it.

I agree with you Jerry, I will never understand why criminal charges were never filed against Chris. A thief is a thief, crimes were committed and I don't think the DA should have a choice in prosecution. Complaints were filed, the Atty. General seemed to find them valid. I guess they do things different in NY.
 
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