Bad Guy Touch of Class Reptiles

[AF Exotics]

I hope Jason gets taken care of .He has shown himself to be very respectful in his handling of this and I hope he reaches his goals .I think he is already an asset to this community .

 

[SoLA]

It is kind of sad we disagree on that plane. I would never (especially now) use such a vague word for my terms, and I would certainly not hesitate to refund someone's money if they were unhappy within 3 business days. It goes without saying that this case was extreme with how poor of condition the animals were in, but even if someone didn't like the way an animal looked at them, I would refund their money. But I would have been on the phone with Jason the second I got notification that the package was delivered. And that isn't to cover my terms, it is because I can't sleep from the second I drop off the package to the point I get ahold of the customer to hear they arrived safely. So with this in mind, 51 hours and 45 minutes would have royally pissed me off...but ToCR didn't make this attempt, nor did they even appear to care about the condition of the animals.

It is just sad that this entire incident happened to begin with. I sat and starred at Jason's photo of the dead snake late one night last week and it literally made me sick. It is like salting a wound to see Touch of Class Reptiles not being held completely responsible on this matter. Jason will be an asset to this community, and when I know the 51 hours and 45 minutes included him identifying, outlining, and starting treatment on all illnesses, the interpretation that Jason's "immediately" was not soon enough drives me crazy.

I am sorry your business deal did not go well Marcus, and the law did aid you.

 

[Olexian Pro]

Hey everyone,

Here are the Necropsy photos I promised. I will post the staining results along with photos of any significant observations as soon as they have been processed. Enjoy!

http://sites.google.com/site/olexianpro/12192009-necropsy-of-corallus-caninus

 

[AF Exotics]

Hey Gavin,appreciate your sentiments and your zeal concerning this matter .We do agree that this is not right for Jason,the animals or the community as a whole .It is really poor judgement and even poorer customer service .I would too be bothered by such a transaction from either position,seller or buyer,and that is only normal .TOC has failed,and continues to fail,and ultimately will his business,should he continue to handle this,and any other transaction the same way .

 

[R. Eventide]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your arguments, Marcus and Gavin....

Either the animals should be replaced or Jason's money refunded. I don't think it needs to be one or the other; in fact, I've always viewed them as basically the same thing, though the buyer gets to choose which happens. In this case, Jason was offered a replacement animal after the first one died (and after much prodding); however, he refused due to what he was sent in the first place. I don't blame him one bit; I wouldn't want any animals from this guy ever again, even if they're free.

Some breeders only allow credit for future purposes; some will send a replacement animal; some will completely refund the buyer. I think it mostly depends on what happened. If the animal wasn't the way the buyer expected (tail kinks, etc.), then the snake can be shipped back and replaced at no extra cost to the buyer. But if it's something like this, where the snakes were clearly sick and died, there is no reason the breeder shouldn't give a full refund if the buyer doesn't want animals from that person anymore. "Here, I'll replace your snake that arrived sick and died with another one of my possibly sick and dying snakes! Don't want a replacement? Too bad. You get nothing, then." Um. No.

Then again, all this hinges on the breeder being a decent person...which we've already confirmed from the first page that isn't the case...which pretty much makes all of the above moot.

 

[SoLA]

Please do not place me in this category. Not to turn the attention on me, but I in NO WAY believe Jason should get replacement animals. He is entitled to a refund, and Touch of Class Reptiles has so far lost any credibility on what a healthy animal is (until they make right and deliver Jason a full refund). If the seller has something a buyer wants, let them sell that...but give this buyer his money back on near death animals he would not have otherwise bought.

 

[R. Eventide]

I don't know what "category" you're referring to...but I wasn't putting you in it. I was speaking in general terms.

I think I completely misunderstood something in your discussion with Marcus, and for that I apologize. Methinks I need to sleep and try it again tomorrow.

 

[SoLA]

Sorry Krystal. That was my mistake. I missed a large part of your post, and the significant base (as it is almost 4am). I did think you were saying Marcus and I interpreted your comment the same way, but neither of us did, as I did not agree when he responded, and he corrected his statement.

I agreed with you the first time you said it, and I agree again. Please accept my apologies.

 

[AF Exotics]

Krystal,I did NOT correct my statement,I corrected what I repeated of yours .My statement has stood as it was .I believe the 51 hours voids the terms,clearly .I also think those snakes should be replaced .I could be wrong,but I do not think TOC are breeders,but more likely importers/retailers .Those snakes were assumed to be w/c and most in that capacity operate on the" I will replace,but not refund" principle .

I understand Gavin's legal point for the interpretation of "immediately" .It's clear .It is also the very wrangling of words that I find just as offensive as the snakes condition .We all can,with reasonable minds know what is in the context of "immediately" as it is used in TOC's terms .I can bet the house that TOC didn't have Webster's on hand when he wrote them .I'm a little old school,and that kind of b.s. is just as bad as those snakes being shipped .I actually still believe Jason is owed replacement snakes or something of equal value "to his satisfaction" .Gavin thinks refund,I think replacement .Gavin thinks "immediately" means "as soon as you can" , I think 51 hours was not as soon as he could,or if he knew he couldn't inspect those snakes within reason,have someone else do it that he trusts,or don't order something you can't visibly see for more than 2 days .I will say this,TOC better do something quick .We all agree he is in the wrong .

 

[SoLA]

"One thing to edit,"refund immediately" as Krystal stated,or at least replace immediately,as I feel they should,or some remedy Jason can work with . Wanted to clarify that . "

Marcus, I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you meant here that the snakes should be refunded or replaced, and since Jason clearly does not want to receive more snakes from them due to the horrible health of the ones he got, a refund would be the appropriate one ("some remedy Jason can work with" involved no more snakes...especially ones that were kept anywhere near these). Touch of Class Reptile's website says they do breed, and they keep the captive bred animals away from the wild caught. If that is true, thats great.

I do not "think" immediately means "as soon as you can." The legal definition is "immediately: in orders of the court or in contracts it means "as soon as can be done" without excuse."

As soon as can be done was certainly filled, so the argument would only be if he order of priority to immediately tend to knowingly critical animals at the clinic was an excuse, or the rational order of priority a reasonable person should follow. I have a hard time seeing that Jason did not follow the appropriate order of priority of things that needed to be handled immediately. This is not an offensive wrangling of words here. Clearly if there is more than one thing that needs to be done immediately, they have to be done one at a time. This is why the word in these terms is important to examine.

And remember, the 51 hours and 45 minutes INCLUDED running tests on the animals, beginning treatment, and outlining the medical condition for Touch of Class Reptiles when he responded.

"Those snakes were assumed to be w/c and most in that capacity operate on the" I will replace,but not refund" principle "

I would completely agree with you if these snakes simply had a heavy parasite load and died in a short amount of time. But these snakes were visibly sick and in a critical condition noticeable to the naked eye. They also had an incurable and contagious blood parasite. You would be clearly out of your mind to want that replaced.

I do agree that Jason probably should not have bought the snakes to begin with though. And I am sure he has kicked himself enough on that one and would agree.

 

[R. Eventide]

I think 51 hours was not as soon as he could,or if he knew he couldn't inspect those snakes within reason,have someone else do it that he trusts,or don't order something you can't visibly see for more than 2 days .

He didn't know he was going to be busy for a solid 24 hours. That was an emergency call he got right as he received the animals.

Now maybe he should've sent them a quick note about the animals looking bad and that he was going to run tests before actually running the tests. However, if I had received snakes like that, I'd probably be in a panic and want to see what was wrong as soon as possible, so who knows if I would've done the same thing.

Hindsight is always 20/20. I really don't think it matters anymore, quite frankly. He is owed a complete refund; Kelvin finally agreed, but has yet to actually pay up. I believe that is the only issue to be concerned about at this point.

 

[SoLA]

I also want to state that if Jason was called into work at a plastics factory and waited to tend to the shipment until he was home from a long shift, I would agree that it would be silly to debate the word immediately for the terms used by Touch of Class Reptiles. 51 hours and 45 minutes would have passed and Jason would have voided the terms. Touch of Class Reptiles should still do something about it, but yes...morally, not legally.

But Jason is in a medical profession, where it is critical he responds to a call. So there is a protected order of priority. If you miss something as important as court date because you are the first on the scene of an accident to perform CPR, there are laws protecting you, you will not go to jail, and a new date will be assigned.

And when you do CPR, this is a critical situation where lots of things need to be done immediately. But you first need to check to make sure the scene is safe, call for help, tend to the victim and check to see if they are breathing, breath & pump until help arrives, go home and examine your package of snakes.

 

[AF Exotics]

Gavin,you continue to speak in presumptive tones as if this matter has been adjudicated already .You mention Jason's account for "as soon as can be done without excuse" as if it is a moot point .I do not always agree with Chuck,but his question is valid .Let me ask you,were you with Jason every step of the way during those 51 hours ?What is your relationship to Jason ? Why is it your join dates to this site are IDENTICAL??

Your whole post is the "word wrangling" I mentioned .Also,you didn't misunderstand,you mistook what I said .You will keep arguing,that is clearly easy to see .I simply feel slightly otherwise to you and no amount of "word wrangling" by you will make a difference .Let me say it simply,IF JASON WOULD HAVE REPORTED THOSE ISSUES IMMEDIATELY,THERE WOULD BE NO QUESTION OF THE BURDEN AND RESPONSIBILITY TO REFUND BEING PLACED ON TOC.

It is unfortunate,time lapsed .I can also say if I was in a similar situation,I would be angry if the buyer,or kissing some feet and refunding if I were the seller,if that was reported immediately .If I knew,not just profess,but knew those snakes were in better condition when sent,I would have a problem with a customer calling me two days later saying they had issues .I have no doubt that they were sick,to the point of being septic and displaying both kidney and liver damage as Jason graciously provided both the evidence and the care to try and save those poor snakes .

I think TOC did something wrong here . I also think that Jason erred by not jamming them up the minute that box was opened .Jason seems to be a stand up guy,and no doubt TOC appears to be inhabiting the other side of the spectrum,but there is a problem all the way around .Now to my posts,they are simply my opinion,to be criticized,disagreed with,agreed with,whatever you fancy .Gavin,I believe you are right in premise,but people do see things differently,and anybody that has expressed that so far,you immediately go on the offensive,not attack,but you are an advocate for Jason,well so am I ,just to a different degree .My last post,because I think a certain dealer needs to be the one posting on how he will make this right .

 

[SoLA]

Marcus, I stated my potential bias in the very beginning in that I do know Jason, and did not know Touch of Class. Our "relationship" I guess would be friends through reptiles. As most of us have probably acquired many of those over the years. I hope I can actually call Alex Estrada one of those friends soon. Despite my forementioned bias, I absolutely try my best to be very fair all the way around. People even jumped on me for giving time credit to Kelvin Soto because he did not speak English. Personally, I think that makes it most difficult on him, and is just a little frustrating for the rest of us. Some people did not agree, and thats ok.

I was not with Jason every step of the way when he received the snakes, and since you took a close look at my account, you might have noticed we reside in two different parts of the country. But I paid attention when Jason posted that he did have someone that was there with him to examine the snakes. Our join dates are identical because Jason called me to tell me about his problem, and I informed him about the BOI. He had never heard of it, and I had been meaning to set up my account anyway.

I have even talked to Jason on the phone during this time, and we both thought it was a great thing that people questioned him the way they did in the beginning. That is only fair. Hell, I even told Jason how he should be thanking Alex Estrada, and how he should be patient with Kelvin Soto because it has to be confusing as hell for him. He agreed.

But I am jumping on the "offensive" here with you because I truly think Kelvin Soto deserves recognition of resolving this issue when people click to the last page, but I learned I spoke too soon when the check bounced. So while I can accept that we do disagree, I am not arguing with you or even trying to sway you, only making sure when people click to the tail end of this long thread, they see that there is very important medical situation that puts an order of priority with a term like "immediately." I have nothing against you at all Marcus. I am a little offended and surprised you would call looking up the legal definition of their terms "word wrangling," but I can get over it and I would still buy you lunch : )

I really want this to work out, and I want this to end with a positive note to Kelvin Soto, but not too soon. I even told Jason over the phone that I have not completely crossed Touch of Class Reptiles off my list. If they have a captive bred animal that I want, I will proceed with caution if his issue gets resolved. But at this point they could be selling captive bred Pseusted shrompshirei with medical paper for $35 a pair and I would not even consider them.

I am glad we kind of see things the same way Krystal. Sorry again for reading that one post too quickly. Maybe we can have lunch sometime too haha.

 

[alexestrada17]

Hey everyone,

I spoke to Kelvin this weekend (saturday) and made him aware that the e-check bounced. He said he would send Jason the money again...because nothing appeared pending on his paypal account....So Jason, did you recieve anything from Kelvin yet?

 

[SoLA]

If he did, it would probably be a wise idea not to post anything until the check clears to not continue the "good guy/bad guy" teeter Kelvin started and continued with the bad check.

I really hope to not hear more bad news from Jason.

You have been great Alex, please keep up the good work on this.

 

[snakeman101172]

Just a thought. Why does someone in the business of caring medically for animals choose to purchase wild caught over captive ? And who with this background and training would expect these wild caught animals to arrive in good health. He is due a refund, no doubt about it. However, there are plenty of captive specimens readily available without these defects from reputable people. He chose cheap instead of quality. Being in that profession I can not see why the risk of wild caught would even be considered. Like I said he is due a full refund without question.

 

[Olexian Pro]

snakeman101172,

That is an excellent question. As a veterinary student and a 2010 DVM candidate, I have had the opportunity to work with many wild animals including reptiles, mammals, avian species, amphibians and even wild aquatic specimens. It is also in my personal experience as a veterinary student that I can say the term "Wild" should not be confused with the term "Sick."

I have had numerous wild animals in my care ranging anywhere from trauma patients to unwanted intruders found in someones home and even the occasional abandonment case resulting from a "hit by a car" event. No less, all of these individuals were in fact taken from the wild by their captors, they were cared for appropriately and all of them were clinically healthy aside from the mechanical injuries, or series of events that occurred prior to their capture. Eventually, some of them were released into the wild, some were taken in by staff, others maintained in public exhibits and others required euthanasia due to their inability to safely return to the wild in the face of predators.

Again I would like to point out that NONE of these animals were sick, but all of them WERE by definition, wild caught. Additionally, stop and think for a moment. How do you suppose that all of those captive specimens readily available to you got to our country in the first place? I think the answer your looking for is "Wild Caught Specimens." Those individuals did well enough to give rise to the captive herp's that we currently have today and it is because they were cared for appropriately. It is because of wild caught specimens that you me and everybody else can have the opportunity to enjoy this hobby as we do.

Being wild caught does not eminently suggest suffering from a debilitating disease. Instead, the denotation serves as a warning to keepers, suggesting that one should not allow the specimen to enter their collection until it has received a clean bill of health and passed the necessary quarantine period. The obvious truth here is that one should still be cautious when considering wild caught specimens and to this I do agree.

It is also true that these individuals tend to carry large parasite burdens and also have an increased risk of exposure to disease vectors such as tic's and thus, may be carrier's of unseen clinical pathogens. This is why veterinarians recommend quarantine procedures for any reptile introduced into an at home collection, be it wild caught or captive bred, the standards are the same. My quarantine period is no less than 6 months with ongoing monitoring 2-3 times daily.

Purchasing a wild caught animal does not mean a person should expect an otherwise healthy wild caught specimen that has been advertised by the seller as "Healthy & Parasite Free" to arrive with both parasites and lesions consistent with animal neglect and cruelty to animals. Though I cannot deny the parasite was the result of being a wild caught specimen and is likely not the responsibility of Kelvin, he still advertised the animal as "Parasite free." This is lying, when the truth is you don't know. Fortunately, Hepatozoon rarely causes clinical signs and can only be transmitted to other reptiles through insect vectors, of which I have none. The other route of infection is through the ingestion of an intermediate host, which in both my collection and quarantine room is impossible, since I maintain each individual separately.

Having a diseases is a without doubt a medical abnormality, weather an individual is wild caught, or captive bred. It is not a norm for wild specimens. My point in saying all of this and I want to be very clear on this matter is that, AT NO POINT should we ever consider disease conditions to be a normal standard among wild fauna. This is simply false. These diseases result from human intervention and poor husbandry employed by the captors of wild specimens, at least for those of us who have not been trained to do so.

With that said I have had, and currently do have numerous wild caught specimens that I have acquired through various means and mechanisms and these individuals have done extremely well from the day they were introduced into captivity. I have also employed the appropriate 6 month quarantine procedures that I employ with all of my new acquisitions and they have lived very healthy parasite free lives. The same is true of other friends of mine in the profession who also maintain wild specimens.

In contrast the term "captive bred" does mean "healthy". In practice as a student I have treated many captive bred specimens suffering with severe disease. I have also purchased captive bred individuals that later died as a result of disease. The risks and tolls are not far from similar.

As for reputation, I would be inclined to agree with you, but reputations have to start somewhere. For those of us who still believe their are some good breeders in this world, I see no reason why new breeders without high standing reputations preceding them shouldn't deserve a chance to show the world what they have to sell.

My decision to purchase from someone with a previously unknown reputation does not excuse the neglect and mistreatment of newly captive animals, or those who subject them to poor husbandry conditions.

I do not disagree with you, there are indeed risks associated with the purchase of wild caught animals. For example, the hepatozoon parasite that I was able to identify, but no less that organism is not not what killed these individuals. My experience as an individual who is trained trained in wildlife healthcare, does not negate the sellers responsibility to advertise the animals in their current condition, to do so representing them fairly and it certainly does not excuse the advertisement of "Healthy and Parasite Free" individuals, when you clearly haven't even bothered to check.

 

[Olexian Pro]

In response to Alex's Inquiry,

Kelvin Soto must be aware of his own current financial standing and must have known there was insufficient funds in his account. The e-check was declined because insufficient funds were available according to paypal. For this reason I see no reason to resolve him of his current responsibilities as a business owner that owes a customer a refund. It is for this reason that I will no longer be posting communications regarding the receipt of Payment from Kelvin Soto, that is until I have the cash in my hand. Until then, this matter has not been resolved as Kelvin has already given me very little reason to believe that he actually wish's to resolve this matter. I have already decided my course of action concerning this matter. The will be dependent on Kelvin's desire to consider this matter resolved.

 

[Olexian Pro]

Sorry for the typo:

"The rest will be dependent on Kelvin's desire to consider this matter resolved"