Touchy Subject

[homegrownherps]

I have found over the years that when people have “bad” dealings with (some not all) well-known top name breeders, that they are not so willing to announce or post it on a public forum.
I have talked to people that have had these bad dealings with well known top name breeders, and when they just mention their bad experience, others chime in with how great the breeder is and how long they have been dealing with reptiles, or how great their animals are. And on certain forums it’s almost like signing your own death warrant, you get bombarded from other people who swear that that breeder would never do such a thing.

I personally have dealt with one breeder who has been dealing in reptiles for over 30 years. I purchased some animals from him and they came covered in mites.
And his excuse was that they came from another breeder, and he didn’t see them before they were shipped.

He made good on it, but there’s no excuse for shipping out mite-infested animals. No matter who you are or how long you have been in the reptile industry.

And so for the reason I listed above, I did not go public with this info. I also purchased animals from this person on two other occasions and the quality of the animals was horrible. But he always made good on them. So does that make it OK?
It seems like as long as the breeder/dealer makes good on it, that smooths it over. But fact still remains that he/she actually has had bad dealings.

(FYI- this happened a few years ago, and will NEVER purchase animals again from him).

So it seems breeders/sellers are allowed incidents like these because they have so many satisfied customers and the unsatisfied customers really don’t matter that much to raise red flags for future buyers.

Just wondering what others think of this.

 

[The BoidSmith]

It seems like as long as the breeder/dealer makes good on it, that smooths it over. But fact still remains that he/she actually has had bad dealings.

That’s the personal issue I have with the phrase: “What’s important is how you react to a problem when the problem shows up”. Yes, there is some truth to that statement, but in some instances the “eraser seems to be going ahead of the pencil” if you know what I mean. A bad deal once in a while can be forgiven, but something’s not right when they become the norm, and the seller has to be fixing one mistake after another.

Regards.

 

[norsmis]

I agree. Just because someone "fixes" a problem that could have been prevented doesn't make it right. I see too many incidents and experienced a few myself of big and small breeders sending sick, mite infested or misrepresented animals and then "making it right" later. Why do this in the first place. I refuse to sell an animal that isn't perfect even if the buyer still wants it. I won't even offer an animal that isn't perfect. My reputation is worth more than a few quick bucks.

 

[homegrownherps]

I guess I was looking for more input on this matter.

I have found over the years that when people have “bad” dealings with (some not all) well-known top name breeders, that they are not so willing to announce or post it on a public forum.
I have talked to people that have had these bad dealings with well known top name breeders, and when they just mention their bad experience, others chime in with how great the breeder is and how long they have been dealing with reptiles, or how great their animals are. And on certain forums it’s almost like signing your own death warrant, you get bombarded from other people who swear that that breeder would never do such a thing.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I have found over the years that when people have “bad” dealings with (some not all) well-known top name breeders, that they are not so willing to announce or post it on a public forum.
I have talked to people that have had these bad dealings with well known top name breeders, and when they just mention their bad experience, others chime in with how great the breeder is and how long they have been dealing with reptiles, or how great their animals are. And on certain forums it’s almost like signing your own death warrant, you get bombarded from other people who swear that that breeder would never do such a thing.

You are right, and it has happened to a certain extent in this site. But in my opinion it's not only fear of retaliation. There's also the fact that some people feel that any problem was their fault (due to inexperience) and not that of the "highly reputable breeder". How could he be wrong when so many people back him up?

 

[homegrownherps]

I noticed that "beginners", being new to reptiles are really intimidated by some of the forums. Just think how much more participation there would be if they weren't so intimidated.
I see it allot ...when you see something like this;

"I know this sounds stupid..but"

They should feel the need to have to make that statement, they already feel stupid and didn't even post yet.

And I see responses like this ....

"Maybe you should buy a book"
"Don't you think you should have learned about it BEFROE you got the animals"

Those suggestins may be a good idea, but its obvious that its already past that.

Just ranting.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Just ranting.

Not really, you are right on target. Furthermore one of the things that some people like to do is demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that the husbandry practices of those questioned were inadequate. That puts them immediately in the defensive and or avoid posting at all. That's why I was saying earlier that they feel that posting about well-known breeders is a loose-loose situation for them.

 

[Skunky]

Fom reading the BOI quite a bit, I will agree with HGH...very often I read a thread in which an individual has had a negative experience with a "big-name", posts a thread, and then often gets harrassed and abused a fair deal by folks who wonder if there's "an ulterior motive to the negative post".

Personally, I wouldnt be suprised if people didnt post for fear of being taken to task by steadfast believers in said breeder.

I do agree that sometimes everyone has a bad day, and maybe a transaction doesnt go smoothly, or something else goes wrong..it's going to happen to everyone in the business once in a while. What I disagree with is the vehemency of some of the responses in retaliation to a negative (not derogatory) experience.

 

[darkbloodwyvern]

I think everyone has a bad day, but shipping out multiple animals that have to be "fixed" is definately something that should be posted on the BOI. I know it is hard to go up against a big name, but just having pictures and not sounding like a jerk seems to help. But yeah, i see too mnay people's experiences downplayed when we should be considering what we would think if we recieved the same poor quality animal or item, especially from someone we trust.
I also think that most of the threads i have read recently seem to be somewhat split both ways, with some berating the seller, and othere berating the buyer, and some more reasonable people trying to consider both sides of the fence. I think there are a lot of suspicious people here, mostly because we all get a lot of crud from sellers buyers and random idiots online and in real life. It is difficult to be a responsible owner and recieve a badly shipped or managed animal, and it is difficult if not impossible to determine whether the buyer or seller is 100% trustworthy and honest, because people are not perfect.
I think a lot more people should post their actual expereinces on the BOI whether or not they feel they are "stupid" or going to have to defend themselves (which i don't think they should have to do if they are clear, honest and just trying to fix the problem rather than whine) against other's accusations. I have not yet had a bad experience directly, but I would certainly reconsider doing a deal with someone who is putting the eraser before the pencil as is were. It is not worth my time to deal with someone who I have to anticipate wasting my time with that kind of behavior.
If I feel the need to ask someone if they are a beginner, i would rather ask them to describe what happened more in detail, the rest of the forums are for helping new owners, the BOI is for bussiness, and should take seriously those who are seriously trying to help out other buyers and sellers.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Fom reading the BOI quite a bit, I will agree with HGH...very often I read a thread in which an individual has had a negative experience with a "big-name", posts a thread, and then often gets harrassed and abused a fair deal by folks who wonder if there's "an ulterior motive to the negative post".

Personally, I wouldnt be suprised if people didnt post for fear of being taken to task by steadfast believers in said breeder.

While I agree to some extent, Anyone posting on the BOI also needs to present evidence or they will be taken to task. "Big Breeder" or not. I can't tell you how many times that a thread starter ended up being the person in the wrong or just as culpable as the accused. Unwarranted posts happen all the time but have slowed considerably since membership was required to post.

I believe if someone feels that their experience is worthy of BOI post ( bad or good), they should make the post regardless of the person/business they are reporting on. Just have your facts in-hand.


I also believe that an honest mistake that is corrected shouldn't warrant a bad guy thread. If anything, it should provoke a good one. If you feel it necessary to included the mistake that was corrected but in a good way, others will take note and also post. This way you can see a pattern in someones business without making unnecessary enemies over a one time honest mistake. You see it all the time.

-John Doe sent be a beautiful snake but it turned out to be a male and I ordered a female. He handled the situation great and refunded my money or sent me an extra snake.-


Then their are those who post but are too much a pacifist. I was reading a trader rating for someone while I was researching making a purchase. I hadn't decided yet and received negative feedback for this person privately from another source. So, I emailed someone that left the person a positive trader rating to ask them " How did the transaction go?" He said "OK". I then asked, "You stated in your positive post that he sent you something extra that you didn't expect?" He said, " yeah mites". Not a good way to let people know you had a problem.

 

[Skunky]

I also believe that an honest mistake that is corrected shouldn't warrant a bad guy thread. If anything, it should provoke a good one.

I agree with this Dennis. I think the problem though is that folks have different interpretations of what constitutes a Bad Guy thread. For some folks, this means a snake arriving a day late, while for others it means that the service and treatment have been unacceptable, or the quality of the snakes have been misrepresented.

Without any hard and fast rules for the BOI, it's pretty subjective as to how folks use the BOI.

 

[The BoidSmith]

On the other hand there have been individuals who were literally ripped off and came over for help and ended being the ones labeled bad guys. Sometimes the only mistake they made was being inexperienced and trying to tip the scale towards their side way too soon. Some made the mistake of trying to frame the guilty party with things that were not exactly 100% accurate. That was enough incentive for some to put them in the frying pan because of their failed attempt to exaggerate the issue. Going back to the initial topic I remember one vividly that happened not so long ago. The individual complained because he couldn’t get a timely reply from a well-known breeder. The tables turned around so fast he never knew what hit him. The “accused” party never even had to post in this site, and the “accuser” complaints were rapidly dismissed. It so happens that this person could’ve been a future asset for this site (anyone potentially is) but he was completely discouraged from ever posting again.

Regards

 

[Dennis Hultman]

On the other hand there have been individuals who were literally ripped off and came over for help and ended being the ones labeled bad guys. Sometimes the only mistake they made was being inexperienced and trying to tip the scale towards their side way too soon. Some made the mistake of trying to frame the guilty party with things that were not exactly 100% accurate. That was enough incentive for some to put them in the frying pan because of their failed attempt to exaggerate the issue. Going back to the initial topic I remember one vividly that happened not so long ago. The individual complained because he couldn’t get a timely reply from a well-known breeder. The tables turned around so fast he never knew what hit him. The “accused” party never even had to post in this site, and the “accuser” complaints were rapidly dismissed. It so happens that this person could’ve been a future asset for this site (anyone potentially is) but he was completely discouraged from ever posting again.

Regards

Maybe, I am reading wrong here. That should be enough incentive to ignore anything the person making false statements has to say. If you come to the BOI and try to deceive "framing" someone with misinformation and exaggerating details, you should be cooked to a crisp in the frying pan.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Maybe, I am reading wrong here. That should be enough incentive to ignore anything the person making false statements has to say. If you come to the BOI and try to deceive "framing" someone with misinformation and exaggerating details, you should be cooked to a crisp in the frying pan.

No, Dennis you are reading it exactly right. Yes, some people have exaggerated “details” as you say. In our zeal to look for those details we loose sight of the forest and let go the real person to blame. One example that comes to mind is one person that had received an animal “plagued” with mites when in reality it was only a few. But there are other examples that I can probably look through. Does it matter if there was one, two, or a thousand mites? No, the animal had mites, period. We then are hung up in the details of asking for pictures of the bag to do a “head count” of mites. We end up deciding that it was an exaggeration. Another case was the one of a sick python, the animal had been sent sick, there was no doubt about it, but we later discovered that the individual who received it was not that experienced and had not kept him at the required higher temperatures. In both cases WE lost sight of the main issue which was that the animals were no fit to be sold in the first place. That fact was diluted in a zillion other comments about how the “buyer” had tried to deceive the BOI members. Yes, sometimes the crime (exaggeration) and the subsequent punishment is not proportional to the original fault but still we process the victim and let go the criminal. No system is perfect, we know that, but think about it and you will remember several similar instances.

Regards

 

[homegrownherps]

Personally, I wouldnt be suprised if people didnt post for fear of being taken to task by steadfast believers in said breeder.

I have spoke w/ several people that chose not to post due to some of the reactions by other members here. Some of them do not even want to post on the discussion forum for the same reason. ( a beginner feeling intimidated).
Although I think Fauna is really not that bad, (discussion forum) compared to the “other” forum.

I also think that most of the threads i have read recently seem to be somewhat split both ways, with some berating the seller, and othere berating the buyer, and some more reasonable people trying to consider both sides of the fence.

When a thread is “split” both ways, does that mean since the seller, as a good guy - hasn’t done anything wrong? I have seen this in threads. Because he/she is a known good guy it seems it is MUCH harder to post about a bad deal.

It is difficult to be a responsible owner and recieve a badly shipped or managed animal, and it is difficult if not impossible to determine whether the buyer or seller is 100% trustworthy and honest, because people are not perfect.

True…even the experienced buyers get duped on occasion. And even known good guys have fallen by the wayside.

I think a lot more people should post their actual expereinces on the BOI whether or not they feel they are "stupid" or going to have to defend themselves (which i don't think they should have to do if they are clear, honest and just trying to fix the problem rather than whine) against other's accusations.

Unfortunately more times than not, the situation gets dissected rather than trying to get the problem “fixed”. Once this starts then the person reporting the bad deal or what have you, then finds he has to defend himself when he was the one who was wronged.

I also believe that an honest mistake that is corrected shouldn't warrant a bad guy thread. If anything, it should provoke a good one.

How many “mistakes” would you consider from a single seller before thinking …”jeez this is the third time I bought something from this guy and there’s yet another problem.”
Even though he “made it right”
I know when I pay for something; I want what I pay for, not something in place of.
I also want it in a timely manner; I shouldn’t have to wait more than two weeks for anything. (Unless special reasons apply). And I don’t want a sick animal or one with mites … whether its infested or it has one mite.
I got some rosy boas covered in mites from a very reputable breeder, and his excuse was “that they weren’t his and came from a friends house”
Hmmmm…first off, I thought I was buying from him – not his friend.
He didn’t even check the snakes before shipping; they were packed & shipped from the friend’s house. Why should any buyer have to deal with that nonsense?
I purchased from him because of his reputation.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

How many “mistakes” would you consider from a single seller before thinking …”jeez this is the third time I bought something from this guy and there’s yet another problem.”
Even though he “made it right”
I know when I pay for something; I want what I pay for, not something in place of.
I also want it in a timely manner; I shouldn’t have to wait more than two weeks for anything. (Unless special reasons apply). And I don’t want a sick animal or one with mites … whether its infested or it has one mite.
I got some rosy boas covered in mites from a very reputable breeder, and his excuse was “that they weren’t his and came from a friends house”
Hmmmm…first off, I thought I was buying from him – not his friend.
He didn’t even check the snakes before shipping; they were packed & shipped from the friend’s house. Why should any buyer have to deal with that nonsense?
I purchased from him because of his reputation.

It's a matter of degree. People are all different when it comes to reactions to problems. I don't believe I would have purchased a third time from someone that messed up my previous two orders. I also don't believe the scenario of sending snakes from someone else's collection is an "honest mistake". Sending mites to someone is not cool anyway you look at it.

When it comes to orders that I have placed with known "good guys", A shipping delay with merit is OK for me as long as the communication is there. I would like to think I am a reasonable person when it comes to some matters. Now, a shipping delay that has really no merit or that is prolonged to a unreasonable amount of time is another story.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

How many “mistakes” would you consider from a single seller before thinking …”jeez this is the third time I bought something from this guy and there’s yet another problem.”
Even though he “made it right”

Like I said in my first post. There is away to post it to see if it's a simple mistake or a pattern.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

In both cases WE lost sight of the main issue which was that the animals were no fit to be sold in the first place. That fact was diluted in a zillion other comments about how the “buyer” had tried to deceive the BOI members. Yes, sometimes the crime (exaggeration) and the subsequent punishment is not proportional to the original fault but still we process the victim and let go the criminal. No system is perfect, we know that, but think about it and you will remember several similar instances.

Regards

I disagree, Only because I know this thread you speak of. If in fact it was only a few not a "zillion", The buyer admitted to knowing that the snake had a few mites mites before the purchase. That fact alone or that 'exaggeration" was the whole case the buyer presented. "The snake had more mites than I thought."

I believe that both parties were addressed fairly in that thread.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

No system is perfect, we know that, but think about it and you will remember several similar instances.

Regards

I agree, and there have been many threads that my personal opinion was not that of the majority. I also know that when we are dealing with the reputations of people its much easier for a known person to have a little more leeway from their peers. I agree you can find many cases that support your statements. BUT, you can also find many cases that support the opposite. It can sometimes take 50 or more pages before the truth comes out. This only happens because people pay attention to the details.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I disagree, Only because I know this thread you speak of. If in fact it was only a few not a "zillion", The buyer admitted to knowing that the snake had a few mites mites before the purchase. That fact alone or that 'exaggeration" was the whole case the buyer presented. "The snake had more mites than I thought."

I believe that both parties were addressed fairly in that thread.

Let me add a little here. I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thread. There have been several regarding mites. But if we are

If you agree to purchase an animal with mites. The animal arrives and you are unhappy because the animal has more mites than you thought. You as the buyer, In my opinion, have no reasonable expectation to believe that people will be sympathetic to your story. Both parties made mistakes in that situation. Both parties were addressed for their individual actions.