Two juvenile western hognose together? feeding?

[dreinke]

I have two female(sisters) western hognose snakes in and educational 75 gal exhibit. One is about 20g and the other 28g. They have been housed together for the last two months while I have had them. They have been doing really well together, even curled up next to each other. My main question is regarding how much to comfortable feed them to not eat each other but not so much that I over feed them? I have been feeding them 3 to 4 f/t pinkies every week and they eat them without hesitation. Any help would be great because this is my first time housing two snakes together!

 

[Joemistal]

I do not believe you should have any problem with them eating each other. I would feed separately but other then that should be fine.

 

[dreinke]

Thanks for the reply. They have been doing pretty good together, I have been holding them at the same time almost everyday and feeding them two pinkies each per week. And yes I feed them separately in their own 5 gal tank behind the exhibit.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

I would separate them. Cannibalism is not just a kingsnake behavior!

Here's a thread from another forum that actually shows a western with a sibling in its belly!


Here's another enlightening thread featuring some constrictors who decided to expand their diet.

I have personally witnessed a bullsnake eating a dumerils boa, a spotted python eating a sibling, several instances of cornsnakes eating siblings...and in addition to the above thread, I have seen photos of dumerils boas eating a BP, a red-tail boa eating a BP, and a burmese python eating a BP.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

Hmm...I forgot Fauna is prejudice to other forums.

Here is a photo of a western who recently chowed down on his sibling.

 

[dreinke]

Thanks for the info. Do you believe that most of those cases are due to the animal not getting enough food or just being opportunistic? I am trying to keep my westerns well fed without overfeeding them.

 

[~Just Curious~]

In most of the cannibalism cases I've heard of, the animals were being fed enough. They just did it anyways. The owner usually comments on how it was being fed properly and how they had always gotten along up until then.

There's a lot of other reasons not to house them together though - stress, disease spreading, and health monitoring come to mind. If one has a bad bm or you find a regurgitated rodent, how will you be able to know which one isn't doing well? Also I hear "cuddling together" is often their subtle way of fighting for dominance over the best hide/basking spot etc. etc. etc. Being cold-blooded, they can't "huddle together for warmth" like a lot of people think. They're just curled up together there because that was the most comfortable place to be temp/security wise, the fact that it was already inhabitated by another snake was probably stressful for them if anything.
Hoggies are solitary animals in the wild, they usually only come together during the breeding season. I don't think it's best to house them together otherwise. A lot of people say they've done it for years without problems, but that's like saying you've (dumb random example) smoked for years without any health problems. Yet. There's a few well-known and accepted cons/risks, but I can't think of a single pro for the animal... I don't think it's worth it. I would suggest you seperate them just to be safe. It's better than "sorry" and all that. Two tanks half that size would still work for your display.

It is a very nice display you have going on by the way, with simply adorable lil' hoggies! I'd just suggest that you add more cover and hiding places for them though~

 

[Helenthereef]

I'm one of those who have always housed snakes together and never had a problem - I just make sure that there are many, multiple hides and always feed in a separate tank. I've always had boas though, not sure if hognoses are different in this respect.

(Plus I usually give my snakes a quick dip in a basin of water after feeding to ensure there is no prey scent left on them...)

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

I'm one of those who have always housed snakes together and never had a problem - I just make sure that there are many, multiple hides and always feed in a separate tank. I've always had boas though, not sure if hognoses are different in this respect.

I used to be, too. Thankfully, I was lucky not to ever have it happen in my own collection.

Glad you've been lucky so far...but there's always a first time and then I'll guarantee you'll never do it again. Especially if the animal(s) lost is particularly valuable!

It's just one of those things where you really have to ask yourself, "Is it worth the risk?" For me, it is not.

 

[Helenthereef]

The photos in the thread are certainly convincing! I know this is a contentious issue, and I'm not pressing it, obviously there have been cases. I'd love to hear a really scientific breakdown of what leads up to it though. I've been co-housing snakes for years (and certainly don't want to be the one next to say "until...")

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

I would generally assume that any snake that includes reptiles or amphibians in its natural diet wouldn't hesitate to go after another snake. After all, a snake likely has a scent closer to that of other reptiles than say, a white lab rat!

Then again, the photo below indicates that even larger snakes that typically go after warm-blooded prey will venture out of their normal menu.

-----

Also, the following text was from a friend of mine who had seen it posted on another forum (she didn't specify which forum it was, so I admit this is third-hand account!)

"A little over a month ago I acquired a large (5 foot+) female Sunglow Boa handed to me for free by a friend of mine. Needing the cage space last minute, I had to bump my Argentine Boas together, for a temporary & uncertain amount of time, separating only for feeding. This was about 6 weeks ago.

In case you didn't know, Stokely is my 4-digit prize posession: a visual T+Positive Argentine. While Cinders (her sister) is a Het T+ Positive. They are/were about a year and half old now, and about 5 feet long. I know I shouldn't do it for their general well being, but I know 1SoftKiss has kept her Argentines together for their entire lives without problem, and know others that have as well. They tend to be the gentle giants of the Boa Constrictor world, and figured for the time being, why not. Until money is better, I will work on a solution.

Last night, we were in the rooms cleaning, and they attacked each other... Or something... I'm not sure what happened, but it was quick and I felt grateful to have been on the scene immediately. There was a process of entangling them, but neither seemed worse for the wear, no noticeable injuries or bite wounds, and both were very alert. So I separated them. I had never had this problem until now.

Tonight, Stokely, the visual T+ was found dead in her cage. Not a scrape on her. I can only think internal damage from constriction... I don't know what else to think.

I am your poster child for a bad owner trying to save a dime and f king everything up. I am that 1 in 1000 minority, and this is the reason why you should NEVER house your snakes together. I am out a $2000.00 snake and a great friend/companion/sweetheart, that I will never be able to replace (financially or sentimentally).

I just hope everyone else understands that I know we screwed up, be gentle, and maybe someone can learn from my mistakes. Until then, I will be working on holding back this nervous breakdown with a beer or 10. Cheers."

 

[dreinke]

It seems like it works for some people and not for others. The picture I have of them is from when they first moved into that tank, since then i have added alot more hides/double level pieces and we change the exhibitry out regularly. I have been thinking about just adding an acrylic divider to it but then it ll drastically cut their roaming space down. So i am thinking for now i am going to keep adding new stuff to their cage and make it kinda "cluttered" and see how they do?

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

It seems like it works for some people and not for others.

I will concur that the possibility of something like this happening is relatively slim, and some have accomplished multi-snake housings for years without years. However, I do not agree that it "works for some and not others." IMHO, its just a matter of "when." Statistically speaking in general terms, the longer you employ this practice, the liklehood of one day it biting you in the rear increases with each passing day. It may happen tomorrow, 10 years from now, or possibly never at all. But the risk and possibility is ALWAYS there.

I'm not trying to be belligerent or anything. I just care about your snakes, and I certainly do not wish for any "I told you so" moments either. But nevertheless, just imagine how would you feel when you walk into the room one day to check on your snakes...and you discover this has happened. I guarantee you will think to yourself, "Crap, I should have separated them."

Like I said before, I've seen this happen with snake species (specifically, those that are predominantly rodent-eaters) I would have never before believed it was a possibility until I saw the evidence with my own eyes. And at that point, I eventually decided that I don't care how crammed I am for cage space, I will NEVER house 2 snakes together unless its for breeding. I'll go to walmart, buy another tub and poke holes in it to avoid this from happening. Call me paranoid, but all my snakes are valuable to me, whether sentimentally or monetarily. I certainly do not plan on taking an unnecessary risk of losing one just because I'm too lazy or cheap to buy another cage.

Speaking of lazy or cheap, those honestly are the reasons anyone does this. There is certainly no advantage to housing two snakes together longterm. In fact, you're only causing them more stress since snakes prefer solitude anyway.

 

[~Just Curious~]

Good idea

I have been thinking about just adding an acrylic divider to it but then it ll drastically cut their roaming space down.

If you could make that working heating/thermal gradient-wise then that would be great!
It's still 37.5 gallons each. Most caresheets agree that 20 gallons will do just fine their whole life. Yours are still pretty small, so that's more than enough room for them. If you'd still pefer for them to have more room as adults, then you could always upgrade them to their own tank later on.....or you could provide one with a smaller tank now and leave one in the larger one. *shrug* Again, you can always upgrade later.
- Remember, canniblism isn't the only possible flaw in these kind of plans. It's the most dramatic and memorable, but stress, disease/parasite spread, and inaccurate health monitoring are all too real. Stress is what worries me the most because it's so hard to see sometimes, yet is the most likely to happen.

Like I said earlier, I see too many risks and not a single benefit for the animal when doing this.

Also just like MDC_Ophiuchus, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just thinking about what's best for the animals. We can't always prevent accidents from happening, but it doesn't mean we should make it easier for them. We should always try to act when we can before it's too late.

Good luck~

 

[dreinke]

Thanks for the great suggestions. I am going to talk it over with the rest of the staff and see what we can do. I think the best solution sounds like putting a barrior in the tank for now. And i just remembered our education dept is looking for some more animals in the class room so maybe i ll move the smaller one in there. Thanks again for all the advise!

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

Thanks, Autumn.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be badgering or anything. It is a matter I do feel strongly about, but the bottom line is I just don't like taking unnecessary risks like that.

There's a LPS here in my town that routinely does this with multiple species (truthfully, I used to work there and its where I personally witnessed a lot of these 'accidents'). I keep trying to tell them they need to stop. Last time it happened, it was a $200 snake that ate a $300 snake; I mean, aside from all else, thats just money down the drain. At this moment, they have a RTB, a spotted python and something else (I do nto recall what it was...don;t go in there much)...and I just shake my head and will not be surprised at all when one day, I hear about one of those snakes ending up as lunch for one of its cagemates.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

Its kinda one of those scenarios where the city officials won't decide to put up a stop light at the intersection until AFTER someone gets killed there. Know what I mean?

 

[dreinke]

Just to update. Here is what their new exhibit looks like.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

Looks fantastic! Good job on the set-up and of course, putting that divider in.

 

[~Just Curious~]

Wow, that looks great! You guys are good with those realistic display set-ups, it's real nice!
I'm sure once they settle in, they'll love it!