Bad Guy Ty park/ ty lizards FL

[Milesd_87]

Read post one, where there is a screen shot of him saying he did NOT produce any blues only purples...

 

[Karma Kritters]

A little off topic but it does seem to have relevance. I am just going off of my memory from years ago working with Tegus. If I remember correctly there was only a very small group of Blue Tegus that came in. Ron St.Piere would really be able to feel in the info. With a already tiny gene pool on the normal blues and with a very small number of original albinos I believe the gene pool is going to be the same no matter who the breeder is.
The fact that he would not divulge his source is not unusual. Most breeders will not tell customers where extra stock comes from. I supply several other breeders with stock myself. I would be very upset if I had sold animals to a dealer and he then told his customer who I was. Some of us would rather have the time to spend with our animals rather than talking with someone who has already purchased elsewhere.
I do feel Ty is handling this situation wrong to be clear. I just can't see where the genetics are likely to make any difference as long as they have been kept pure.
Sam

 

[Sugarhedgie]

Yes the fact is, he did not have to tell op that it was a purple. All he had to do was tell her it was an albino blue tegu, just like what the raffle prize is and it was bred by him. I am pretty sure, his t+ and t minus tegus can all be called albino blue tegus. There is a discussion about it just a few post up.

You are just like talking to a brick wall !!!
You are wrong
There is a difference.
The raffle photo on the fb raffle pictures an "albino blue , T-"
An "albino blue, T-" looks much different, than an "albino purple, T+"

For you to justify your thinking by saying that "he didn't have to tell the op that it was a purple" is just as absurd as you saying "he didn't say it would be EXACTLY like the photo" when ty said "you will get an albino like the one in the photo"

You didn't mention that just a few messages later he also said "it will grow up to look just like the photo" (JUST = EXACTLY IMO)
The photo was a t- "albino blue". He didn't produce any and later admitted that he couldn't even get any

DEFLECTION !!!

If you ever enter a raffle for something AND then WIN that "something" remember that you don't think that it has to be that "something" it can be whatever.

Carry on turtle man.....

 

[Chris Kennard]

A little off topic but it does seem to have relevance. I am just going off of my memory from years ago working with Tegus. If I remember correctly there was only a very small group of Blue Tegus that came in. Ron St.Piere would really be able to feel in the info. With a already tiny gene pool on the normal blues and with a very small number of original albinos I believe the gene pool is going to be the same no matter who the breeder is.
The fact that he would not divulge his source is not unusual. Most breeders will not tell customers where extra stock comes from. I supply several other breeders with stock myself. I would be very upset if I had sold animals to a dealer and he then told his customer who I was. Some of us would rather have the time to spend with our animals rather than talking with someone who has already purchased elsewhere.
I do feel Ty is handling this situation wrong to be clear. I just can't see where the genetics are likely to make any difference as long as they have been kept pure.
Sam

She trusted Ty's stock, which if I'm not mistaken, is why she spent the money on the raffle. He said he didn't produce any. He was going to get the OP's tegu from an unknown source. That was unacceptable to her as it would have been to me.

 

[Sugarhedgie]

Well the raffle wasn't for something "gotten" it was for a tegu produced by ty.
I won't buy animals from certain breeders and I like to know where my animals are coming from

As far as I know. Ty has NEVER "raffled" off anything but his own stock

A little off topic but it does seem to have relevance. I am just going off of my memory from years ago working with Tegus. If I remember correctly there was only a very small group of Blue Tegus that came in. Ron St.Piere would really be able to feel in the info. With a already tiny gene pool on the normal blues and with a very small number of original albinos I believe the gene pool is going to be the same no matter who the breeder is.
The fact that he would not divulge his source is not unusual. Most breeders will not tell customers where extra stock comes from. I supply several other breeders with stock myself. I would be very upset if I had sold animals to a dealer and he then told his customer who I was. Some of us would rather have the time to spend with our animals rather than talking with someone who has already purchased elsewhere.
I do feel Ty is handling this situation wrong to be clear. I just can't see where the genetics are likely to make any difference as long as they have been kept pure.
Sam

 

[Sugarhedgie]

Example. This didn't come from a Joe shmo. It came from a reputable breeder and I have a wait list for his future babies

 

[FresnoTortoise]

She trusted Ty's stock, which if I'm not mistaken, is why she spent the money on the raffle. He said he didn't produce any. He was going to get the OP's tegu from an unknown source. That was unacceptable to her as it would have been to me.

After that, then ty agreed to give her on she produced. Do I have to repost that screen shot again?

 

[FresnoTortoise]

I mean, give her one he produced. The message line is clear as day on the text message op posted.

 

[Mike (The M)]

I mean, give her one he produced. The message line is clear as day on the text message op posted.

He didn't, though. He was pretty willfully obtuse by the end of it. When he said, "send me your address, etc." and continued to say, "you will receive albino tegu", all he had to do was say, "yes, I produced it" when Michelle pressed on its origin.

Ty could have even gone as far to say, it's the same genetic lineage, etc. and things would not be where they are now.

I typically don't sell things anymore, because I'm not a people person. If I put an ad out, I try to answer all the general questions in the ad. I'm not a breeder, I am a hobbyist who on occasion has things to sell, either produced by me or someone else. Once I've been asked one too many questions that are either already answered in the ad, or it seems the person is going to be high maintenance, I shut down. Ty did the same. When you position yourself to be a man of the reptile people, you don't really have that option.

It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with the soup restaurant. "Too many questions, NO TEGU FOR YOU!"

He definitely relied on semantics. The raffle said, "you will get a tegu produced by me, if not, I'll pay you $3k."

Then it was, "I said if I did not produce any albinos. I did produce albinos, just not albino BLUES."

While I do not agree with how Michelle has handled every aspect along the way. For example, this was not a scam. I didn't agree with contacting another charity raffle, and say "I hope he doesn't scam them out of their prize." There are clear actions that both took, that snowballed the chain of events. That's not a scam, it's a pissing contest. Regardless of my personal opinion, she is still not wrong in her claims that he owes her.

If Ty is a "to the letter" guy, then it's ok for Michelle to be a "to the letter" woman. If she was just after 3k, I imagine this would have been over long ago, because she just could've taken the tegu he was going to give her, then turn around and sell it as "Ty Park line" for its market value.

You have brought up some points about what the raffle did or didn't say. The industry has some inherent standards of conduct. Unless you're a distributor who has bins full of the species in question, you typically get a picture of the animal you're getting.

If Ty had posted pictures of the babies he produced (which he often does), and provided Michelle a picture of one of them, it's evident to say she would have trusted him.

Those aren't the things being judged. What is being judged is whether or not Michelle has been made whole by the contract she entered into. In no uncertain terms, she has not refused anything, other than a consolation prize, which was never part of the terms.

Again, I don't agree with everything, on either side. But let's not conflate one issue into another. You're really just making this thread more useless to provide a case. Take the back and forth to PMs.

Michelle... dude has one thing right. If Ty is trying a libel case against you... STOP. RESPONDING. TO. NONSENSE.

Pet a sugar glider.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

A little off topic but it does seem to have relevance. I am just going off of my memory from years ago working with Tegus. If I remember correctly there was only a very small group of Blue Tegus that came in. Ron St.Piere would really be able to feel in the info. With a already tiny gene pool on the normal blues and with a very small number of original albinos I believe the gene pool is going to be the same no matter who the breeder is.
The fact that he would not divulge his source is not unusual. Most breeders will not tell customers where extra stock comes from. I supply several other breeders with stock myself. I would be very upset if I had sold animals to a dealer and he then told his customer who I was. Some of us would rather have the time to spend with our animals rather than talking with someone who has already purchased elsewhere.
I do feel Ty is handling this situation wrong to be clear. I just can't see where the genetics are likely to make any difference as long as they have been kept pure.
Sam

You are correct about the domestically available gene pool. However, one can still work to create some small amount of spread in a collection (if that matters to a person). While I am aim for genetic diversity in my projects, the way some harp on it is often overblown. A handful of escaped pectinata or starlings can go on to build enormous populations that do not lack in fitness and then those animals will experience mutations over time. It is not the way one would want to design things if all options are on the table, but the sky will not necessarily fall if options are less plentiful. Some people simply want the choice.

You are also correct that many purposeful resellers (I will use that word instead of breeders because one is reselling if one is not the breeder of the animals) do not reveal their sources. There are confidentiality reasons and plainly hassle avoiding reasons. If I produce a lot of animals and decide to move them to a reseller, his customers should be going to that reseller and should not be going to me. If I retail animals, then my customers should come to me and not to someone else.

Knowing who the animals came from can potentially speak to if they were kept pure. There are some sources I would not buy from if I wanted a pure albino blue. There are also some sources that produce pure albino blues (or other species of reptiles) that I would now not want to obtain stock from. The OP appears to have gone in with the idea she would be getting one Taesoon Park produced, so it mattered to her when forming her decision to enter the raffle. If he said he would get one from another breeder if he could not produce them at the outset of the raffle, that would have made for a different set of information upon which raffle participants could base their decisions to buy tickets or not, but that was not said to be the case up front.

 

[FresnoTortoise]

Nick,

Is a purple tegu that ty produced still an albino blue tegu?

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nick,

Is a purple tegu that ty produced still an albino blue tegu?

As I would accurately describe it from a scientific perspective, yes.

As Ty described it early on, no. It appears to me that he tried to play both sides of this (marketing speak versus a more scientific label) from what I have seen when the conflict escalated.

Really, this was made far more complicated than it needed to be. She paid for raffle tickets. I know if I bought raffle tickets, I would have zero expectation of winning. Despite that, she won. If she had gotten the money or a "purple" albino tegu (since a typical albino blue was said to not have been produced), this would have been put to bed. If he had given her a clear answer about what was being sent when she asked for more information after he asked for her address (without revealing information) or revealed who the source for the albino tegu was (that he failed to procure), this would have ended long ago and a lot more people (including the OP and Ty) would be a ton happier today.

This can still be resolved right now with less difficulties than it might have in the future, but ego is pushing for a doubling down now because setting this right is now being perceived as a loss in a competition (and this should really be seen as fulfilling an obligation without the emotional garbage injected into it).

 

[Pouky28]

He didn't, though. He was pretty willfully obtuse by the end of it. When he said, "send me your address, etc." and continued to say, "you will receive albino tegu", all he had to do was say, "yes, I produced it" when Michelle pressed on its origin.

Ty could have even gone as far to say, it's the same genetic lineage, etc. and things would not be where they are now.

I typically don't sell things anymore, because I'm not a people person. If I put an ad out, I try to answer all the general questions in the ad. I'm not a breeder, I am a hobbyist who on occasion has things to sell, either produced by me or someone else. Once I've been asked one too many questions that are either already answered in the ad, or it seems the person is going to be high maintenance, I shut down. Ty did the same. When you position yourself to be a man of the reptile people, you don't really have that option.

It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with the soup restaurant. "Too many questions, NO TEGU FOR YOU!"

He definitely relied on semantics. The raffle said, "you will get a tegu produced by me, if not, I'll pay you $3k."

Then it was, "I said if I did not produce any albinos. I did produce albinos, just not albino BLUES."

While I do not agree with how Michelle has handled every aspect along the way. For example, this was not a scam. I didn't agree with contacting another charity raffle, and say "I hope he doesn't scam them out of their prize." There are clear actions that both took, that snowballed the chain of events. That's not a scam, it's a pissing contest. Regardless of my personal opinion, she is still not wrong in her claims that he owes her.

If Ty is a "to the letter" guy, then it's ok for Michelle to be a "to the letter" woman. If she was just after 3k, I imagine this would have been over long ago, because she just could've taken the tegu he was going to give her, then turn around and sell it as "Ty Park line" for its market value.

You have brought up some points about what the raffle did or didn't say. The industry has some inherent standards of conduct. Unless you're a distributor who has bins full of the species in question, you typically get a picture of the animal you're getting.

If Ty had posted pictures of the babies he produced (which he often does), and provided Michelle a picture of one of them, it's evident to say she would have trusted him.

Those aren't the things being judged. What is being judged is whether or not Michelle has been made whole by the contract she entered into. In no uncertain terms, she has not refused anything, other than a consolation prize, which was never part of the terms.

Again, I don't agree with everything, on either side. But let's not conflate one issue into another. You're really just making this thread more useless to provide a case. Take the back and forth to PMs.

Michelle... dude has one thing right. If Ty is trying a libel case against you... STOP. RESPONDING. TO. NONSENSE.

Pet a sugar glider.

The best post in this whole thread!

 

[Milesd_87]

After that, then ty agreed to give her on she produced. Do I have to repost that screen shot again?

"I don't, I only hatched purples and I sell those for $5000. I'm pick them up from another breeder and paying for them so you can have one."


"I could of just bought the tegu from someone and ship it she would have no idea it was not produced by me."


I would have a problem believing "ok ill send u one I produced" after he said he didn't which of his statements should we believe? He even says I could have just not told her and sent one from another breeder. I get that he did eventually say he'll send one he produced, the issue I see is what he stated before that. If you are being shipped a $2500 animal from a specific breeder and line, and all of a sudden prior to shipping red flags about which breeder and lines it's coming from start popping up. I would be suspect of what they're saying regardless of their "reputation."


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=864155&stc=1&d=1492204125

 

[Chris Kennard]

He didn't, though. He was pretty willfully obtuse by the end of it. When he said, "send me your address, etc." and continued to say, "you will receive albino tegu", all he had to do was say, "yes, I produced it" when Michelle pressed on its origin.

Ty could have even gone as far to say, it's the same genetic lineage, etc. and things would not be where they are now.

I typically don't sell things anymore, because I'm not a people person. If I put an ad out, I try to answer all the general questions in the ad. I'm not a breeder, I am a hobbyist who on occasion has things to sell, either produced by me or someone else. Once I've been asked one too many questions that are either already answered in the ad, or it seems the person is going to be high maintenance, I shut down. Ty did the same. When you position yourself to be a man of the reptile people, you don't really have that option.

It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with the soup restaurant. "Too many questions, NO TEGU FOR YOU!"

He definitely relied on semantics. The raffle said, "you will get a tegu produced by me, if not, I'll pay you $3k."

Then it was, "I said if I did not produce any albinos. I did produce albinos, just not albino BLUES."

While I do not agree with how Michelle has handled every aspect along the way. For example, this was not a scam. I didn't agree with contacting another charity raffle, and say "I hope he doesn't scam them out of their prize." There are clear actions that both took, that snowballed the chain of events. That's not a scam, it's a pissing contest. Regardless of my personal opinion, she is still not wrong in her claims that he owes her.

If Ty is a "to the letter" guy, then it's ok for Michelle to be a "to the letter" woman. If she was just after 3k, I imagine this would have been over long ago, because she just could've taken the tegu he was going to give her, then turn around and sell it as "Ty Park line" for its market value.

You have brought up some points about what the raffle did or didn't say. The industry has some inherent standards of conduct. Unless you're a distributor who has bins full of the species in question, you typically get a picture of the animal you're getting.

If Ty had posted pictures of the babies he produced (which he often does), and provided Michelle a picture of one of them, it's evident to say she would have trusted him.

Those aren't the things being judged. What is being judged is whether or not Michelle has been made whole by the contract she entered into. In no uncertain terms, she has not refused anything, other than a consolation prize, which was never part of the terms.

Again, I don't agree with everything, on either side. But let's not conflate one issue into another. You're really just making this thread more useless to provide a case. Take the back and forth to PMs.

Michelle... dude has one thing right. If Ty is trying a libel case against you... STOP. RESPONDING. TO. NONSENSE.

Pet a sugar glider.

I have to wonder if your post would be different if you were in the OP's shoes. I am a locality specific type of guy. I like the know the history of the animals I buy for my personal collection. While I am on board with much of your post, the "pet a sugar glider" comment turned your post from somewhat respectable to biased and condescending.

 

[Mike (The M)]

I have to wonder if your post would be different if you were in the OP's shoes. I am a locality specific type of guy. I like the know the history of the animals I buy for my personal collection. While I am on board with much of your post, the "pet a sugar glider" comment turned your post from somewhat respectable to biased and condescending.

If I were in the OP's shoes, I would have taken the $400 back and cut my losses in money, time, and stress long ago, and chalked it up to stuff happens and never dealing with Ty again. I am specific with my selections as well, when it matters. Even when it doesn't, for something like my Gehyra marginata, I am staunch on diversifying genetics and purity.

My comment was levity. I am not sure who I would seem biased against, since I said on three separate occasions in that post alone that Michelle is in the right, and that's through a lens of disagreeing with a few of her choices. And my comments were directed to a person who was trying to prove otherwise. That is the exact opposite of biased. We've also exchanged PMs where I've advised her to step back.

But hey, thanks for your opinion!

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Bear in mind that a lot of judges send cases to arbitration/mediation in an attempt to bring about a resolution without cluttering up the court docket. They do not look favorably on parties who refuse a good faith effort to participate.

That's true in lesser civil cases. There's alot of money involved here including court and attorney fees. Who is exempt from "cluttering up" the court docket? Is her case more insignificant than others with regard to judges for some reason? In my opinion, you might find a judge who doesn't give a crap. That's what Ty is counting on. The odds are not in his favor. Tell you what. I'll put up a hundred bucks to one prrson, the first to take me up on it here, that Ty loses. I don't care if the settlement is for one dollar in Sugars favor. Only respond on this thread, and don't respond if we have never corresponded before, here or privately, positive or negative.

Arbitration decides cases on the merits. It needs an agreement.

Mediation in Florida is a non binding settlement mechanism, and the Judge will send you there, even involuntarily, in 99% of all Florida civil cases....

 

[AllisonLeigh]

If I were in the OP's shoes, I would have taken the $400 back and cut my losses in money, time, and stress long ago, and chalked it up to stuff happens and never dealing with Ty again. I am specific with my selections as well, when it matters. Even when it doesn't, for something like my Gehyra marginata, I am staunch on diversifying genetics and purity.

My comment was levity. I am not sure who I would seem biased against, since I said on three separate occasions in that post alone that Michelle is in the right, and that's through a lens of disagreeing with a few of her choices. And my comments were directed to a person who was trying to prove otherwise. That is the exact opposite of biased. We've also exchanged PMs where I've advised her to step back.

But hey, thanks for your opinion!

Mike, I would be cautious stating something like this on a public site, it's essentially an invitation to be scammed as anyone who sells you a raffle ticket knows if you end up the winner all they have to do is give you back the cost of the ticket and then they can keep ALL the profit obtained from all the "non-winners"...

Speaking of which, I'm thinking about raffling off a pure bred T-Rex produced by me, if I don't produce one I'll give the winner 1,000,000$... tickets would only be 100$ each, what a bargain! Want to buy one?

 

[Michael Brown]

Mike, I would be cautious stating something like this on a public site, it's essentially an invitation to be scammed as anyone who sells you a raffle ticket knows if you end up the winner all they have to do is give you back the cost of the ticket and then they can keep ALL the profit obtained from all the "non-winners"...

Speaking of which, I'm thinking about raffling off a pure bred T-Rex produced by me, if I don't produce one I'll give the winner 1,000,000$... tickets would only be 100$ each, what a bargain! Want to buy one?

Is prize delivery contingent on your perception of my level of greed? If not, sign me up!

 

[Pasodama]

That's kind of the source of why everyone involved thinks Ty is in the wrong. You've just hit the nail on the head.

- He posted a picture of a blue albino tegu
- Admits, several times, he did not produce any blue albinos
- When asked, says he'll send one like in the photo [blue albino] that he produced

Michelle went on to ask for him to share where he produced blue albinos. Giving her benefit of doubt, I'm assuming she asked this because she (like many people reading this) became confused - one minute he said he did not produce them, then says he did. Then he says he's going to send her an albino tegu 'like the one in the photo' - but he didn't produce one like in the photo...

It gets confusing very quickly. I believe, based on Michelle's dire insistence that she wanted a Ty Park-produced Tegu, that had he simply said "I didn't produce any blues, but I have a purple I will send you", she would have accepted.

The thing is, in Ty's one post here, he outright admitted he didn't communicate that through to her to the letter, and Michelle was more discerning in what she was getting than many others would be. I don't think she's in the wrong for being discerning, or at least wanting to know for sure 100% what she's receiving.

Also, let's not forget that, prior to this, Ty had flat out stated "No" when OP asked if Ty would send her a Purple Albino (due to no blues having been produced, and only purples were, according to Ty). Since Ty was adamant about not sending a purple, to the OP, (since, in Ty's words, the Purple was valued at $2000, or $2500, more than a blue) the OP would have had no reason to think a purple was going to be sent if he did not communicate that to her.

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