Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[snowgyre]

I'm confused. I thought that this "diagnosis" was made after seeing a couple pictures on a facebook page. How could you possibly know that his conditions were stellar and that they never diverted from what's ideal for this species ? Did you see his setups in person and work with him daily making sure they were staying correct? I did skip a page earlier, as I said, so maybe I missed that part.

I'd like to re-emphasize that no formal diagnosis was ever made by myself or other experts. We simply said that the lesions were characteristic of SFD, that the animal should be tested for SFD, and authorities should be notified of a potential problem while waiting for the lab results to come in so they are prepared to act if this is indeed SFD. Again, this is standard protocol when dealing with a potentially severe infectious agent. SFD is not widely reported yet and is not on the radar of most folks, so wildlife biologists have been paying close attention to reports of sick snakes from a variety of sources over the past year and encouraging folks to report instances of possible SFD, even if testing is never conducted (such as with wild snakes encountered by herpers).

I have been watching Joe set up his Nerodia enclosures and other photos of his husbandry on the Facebook page Colubrid Crazy for months. He has been documenting the entire process weekly and his setup is rather impressive (he posted photos and explained husbandry earlier in this thread), so yes, although I have not seen the enclosures in person, I have seen enough images of the process to arguably call Joe an expert with Nerodia husbandry. This is why, when Joe posted photos of diseased snakes, that myself and other experts on the page were alarmed that the disease originated with an exporter and not while in his care.

I encourage everyone to read the entire thread before posting more questions. I feel my answers are becoming repetitive. Due to moderator warnings earlier about posts such as this, I would rather obey moderator desires rather than get slapped with infractions for answering similar questions repeatedly.

But, to summarize again (I am excluding the time frame here of the snakes in his ownership because I cannot recall exact timing off hand):
- Joe posted photos of his Nerodia habitats for months prior to getting Nerodia
- Joe purchased Nerodia from Underground Reptiles
- Joe posted photos of sick Nerodia on the Facebook page Colubrid classifieds asking for advice
- Myself and another expert said the lesions are congruent with SFD and the animal should be tested
- We (meaning the experts) directed Joe to take the snake to the vet immediately
- Joe's vet agreed that the lesions look like SFD lesions and sent samples to Dr. Allender's lab for qPCR analysis at the University of Illinois
- Joe contacted the USGS National Wildlife Health Center, Florida Fish and Game, and Underground Reptiles, alerting them of a potential problem while waiting for the labwork to come back (standard disease-reporting protocol we asked him to follow)
- Joe posted this BOI asking if anyone else has received animals from Underground Reptiles that have similar lesions with the desire to get those animals tested immediately

We are waiting for the lab results to come in. Given the holiday season, it may take 1-2 weeks for the results to come back.

My only role in this situation was giving the initial advice concerning a POSSIBLE diagnosis and testing and reporting options. The rest of this is out of my hands. This will be my last post until the lab results come in, and I mean it this time. If you have questions, feel free to PM me directly. I will not address them here.

 

[bcr229]

To clarify, this is a screenshot of the advertisement for the snake I purchased.

And just so nobody gets confused by my name (as its easy to do!), I am in fact female

My apologies, I used to date a guy named Logan.

Have you had a chance to make an appointment with your vet yet?

 

[Logan256]

Simply knowing can make all the difference. Just off the top of my head, here's an extremely simple, plausible hypothetical scenario that you apparently didn't consider: Let's assume her animal only has a milder case of SFD. If recurring blisters that go away upon shedding are the only obvious symptom - no feeding issues, behavioral abnormalities, or obvious signs of distress - it seems reasonable that someone may choose to eventually take it out of quarantine. Without coming across information that leads her to believe her snake has a serious issue, maybe she just assumes that she doesn't quite have her husbandry fully dialed-in yet.

I mean, you've gone as far as absolutely stating that so why keep it quarantined? Once in general population, that's when the potential nightmare could begin. I'm sure you could find some people who claim to thoroughly disinfect their hands, all implements, as well as changing clothes before handling different snakes; but I highly doubt that's an even remotely typical practice.

If her snake ends up being negative for SFD, she's had the unfortunate inconvenience and added expense of erring on the side of caution - since she chose to take the possibility seriously. If it is SFD, disaster may have been averted. Can cross-contamination from an animal that's only exhibiting symptoms of a mild SFD infection spread the more severe form to other animals? I'm not sure anyone actually knows.

This is exactly my line of thinking as to why I'm reacting the way I am. If this water snake was my only snake or my only reptile in general, I may take a bit more of a 'wait and see' approach pending the outcome of the OP's tests. Knowing me, I'd still take her in regardless, but I would be less concerned overall. However, I have a collection of over 40 snakes that I love dearly and that I have invested years and thousands upon thousands of dollars in. Many of my snakes are giants - burms, retics, and boas - and should one come down with something similar that required any kind of medicated soak or similar treatment, it would be difficult simply due to their large size. If they -all- did, or became ill in any way due to me under-reacting to this or any other possible threat, it would be absolutely devastating. I'd much rather treat the situation as a real problem and have it be nothing than assume it's nothing and have it be serious.

Dan, if someone's thoughts on quarantining an animal only go so far as "it seems outwardly healthy and I've had it for a week already", I have no sympathy for them if they end up passing something to the rest of their collection.

I have had this particular snake in quarantine for nearing two months, and in quarantine she will remain. My quarantine period varies based on each particular animal and any symptoms it may be showing upon arrival or that they develop while quarantined - but it is never less than 8 weeks, even if everything is perfect. She's nearing that mark, and while the bumps themselves would likely have kept her there for longer, if six months from now she was still otherwise perfectly healthy...who knows. I'd never seen anything like this before, and wasn't even sure it was a medical issue. I'll admit that. It looked nothing like any other skin or fungal issue I researched. However it does look identical to images the OP has posted of his own snakes.

My apologies, I used to date a guy named Logan.

Have you had a chance to make an appointment with your vet yet?

No worries! Sadly my vet closed for the holiday before I could get an appointment made, so I'm having to wait until Monday. They're usually good about getting me in fast, so I'm hoping to have her in that day or on Tuesday at the latest. I've also saved her last shed and will have it sent for testing as well.

 

[Logan256]

Borrowing OP's picture to highlight the white bumps on this particular snake. If you disregard the issues on its head, this is exactly what my snake looks like each time before she sheds. I'd estimate that each time she's had between 5 and 15 such bumps down the length of her body, and each time they disappear completely.

 

[moneejah]

I am worried because I have bought snakes from Underground before [emoji20] i hope my snakes are okay...


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[Logan256]

I am worried because I have bought snakes from Underground before [emoji20] i hope my snakes are okay...


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If your snakes appear healthy and are acting normally, I wouldn't be concerned I have several other animals from Underground, including other snakes, that are all thriving with zero issues. The snakes in this thread have visible issues that may or may not be related to where they came from and are currently undiagnosed.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I am worried because I have bought snakes from Underground before [emoji20] i hope my snakes are okay...


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Add one more to the list of people scared by this thread...

Logan, do you mind posting pictures of your snake's bumps? Nothing against you personally, I just work with a ton of different people who have snake questions and have had owners think a snake hissing was an RI or that an adult female who had bred laying on her side was a sign of IBD. I like to see the symptoms myself as sometimes things can be exaggerated/misconstrued. Again, nothing at all against you, I'd just like to see the symptoms you're describing (as I'm sure others would).

For everyone's sake I hope it turns out to be nothing, but I'm curious to see your animal in addition to the ones already posted. I'm actually a little confused why you haven't posted your own animal, all you've done so far is copy the OP's pictures and say "they look like this". You also just copied the page on underground where they're being sold instead of showing that you bought from them.

 

[Logan256]

Add one more to the list of people scared by this thread...

Logan, do you mind posting pictures of your snake's bumps? Nothing against you personally, I just work with a ton of different people who have snake questions and have had owners think a snake hissing was an RI or that an adult female who had bred laying on her side was a sign of IBD. I like to see the symptoms myself as sometimes things can be exaggerated/misconstrued. Again, nothing at all against you, I'd just like to see the symptoms you're describing (as I'm sure others would).

For everyone's sake I hope it turns out to be nothing, but I'm curious to see your animal in addition to the ones already posted. I'm actually a little confused why you haven't posted your own animal, all you've done so far is copy the OP's pictures and say "they look like this". You also just copied the page on underground where they're being sold instead of showing that you bought from them.

I completely understand. I do have one photo posted from the 16th of this month that shows the bumps returning before her last shed, but unfortunately I didn't think to get any pictures when they were at their worst. She shed the day after I found this thread and the bumps cleared again. Rest assured, photos will be taken if and when they return. I do have a previous shed that I'd be happy to photograph that may show evidence of the bumps, but I'll have to check it as I'm not sure if it actually does. This is the photo I posted previously, with the white bumps beginning to becoming visible on her side. Note that this last outbreak was milder than the two before, with the first outbreak being the worst.

 

[snakesareawesome]

I definitely think this thread will get people concerned and probably result in euthanization of animals in people who have too much to lose to risk it. However, as far as regulations are concerned I am less concerned. I would imagine most of the regulations seekers will either soon be fired or hiding in fear of being drained from the swamp lol

 

[Logan256]

I'm actually a little confused why you haven't posted your own animal, all you've done so far is copy the OP's pictures and say "they look like this". You also just copied the page on underground where they're being sold instead of showing that you bought from them.

Forgot to address this in my last post - I posted my own animal and reciepts from Underground on page 5 (post #s 42 and 44), with follow-up photos after her shed on page 8 (Post # 76).

 

[AliensWorkshop]

Sorry about your snake. If you want more detailed testing you can submit a sample here https://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdl/diagnostic-tests for $25. I would call them and tell them exactly what you are looking for. You can have your other animals tested as well at $10 each.

 

[snakesareawesome]

Will, testing for the spores? I don't think I'd be comfortable with an at home biopsy! Regardless of the results, I think perhaps as a community we are bit naive about receiving WC snakes (or those housed with them) from affected regions. Time to be vigilant and QT for an extremely long period of time in the case where exposure is likely.

 

[thamnophis123]

This is a strange progression of illness.

Only if you don't know what your talking about.

 

[thamnophis123]

I think it would be wise to remind those who are involved in this thread that there are those out there who would love to stop , find health issues to curtail or make it more difficult to have any herps . Not to mention the transportation across state lines. Especially when it comes to health issues. what better reason could there be if someone's fear moved into people getting affected.

Its interesting how, if one comes on the BOI to talk about someone who sold them a herp, they better have every drop of hard evidence. But if someone wants to post innuendo, denigrating, insinuation about someone who posts here they are totally free to do so with no facts, no evidence, nothing.

Curious, no?

 

[thamnophis123]

Wow. You should consider suing whoever taught you reading comprehension in grade school. No one, ever, said Underground shouldn't be shipping animals. As has been stated repeatedly, this post was to inform people that snakes shipped from Underground may be infected (in my opinion and that of my vet) and that we need feedback from anyone who has bought snakes from them regarding the health of the animals purchased.

The rest of that stuff you just made up in your head guy.

Maybe you can get your hands on some breathing salts?

In my opinion, the OP did not approach this situation/thread with nearly as much tact as you are describing. What this BOI thread portrays is an epidemic of unlimited consequence to the point that people are alerting fish and wildlife and stating that underground shouldn't be shipping any animals at all.

Where is the basis for this? The fact that there exists a very rare, largely unstudied disease that shows similar symptoms? The fact that wild caught animals (which are known for carrying parasites and diseases and have a much shorter life expectancy than captive bred animals) became sick under one person's ownership (and improved when he improved his husbandry, I might add)? That is incredibly irresponsible and could end up having very drastic consequences as far as owning and shipping reptiles are concerned, as was mentioned by another member.

You're willing to risk the ability to buy and sell any animals across state lines, or own them at all for that matter, because there's a rare disease out there and you saw a couple snakes with blisters from bad husbandry? As intelligent as you generally come across, I must say that I'm absolutely in shock. This thread should never have existed until definitive proof was provided that showed there was something to worry about.

 

[thamnophis123]

To me this thread is spreading fear with absolutely no grounds for doing so. If the test results come back showing that it's SFD, by all means, make a thread and alert people. So far there is ZERO evidence that it is other than that one person in a facebook group said it might be. That is NOT grounds for causing panic.

Nobody is spreading fear or causing panic, you twit. (Can I say twit on here?)
I am just asking for others experience - looking for evidence if its out there. I have made no accusations what so ever. If you happen to be panicked, or peed yourself a little, thats your problem.

Why is it that people cant read the facts - I bought snakes from Underground, they developed what MIGHT be SFD, has anyone else had problems like this? - and not jump to: "OMG UNDERGROUND HAS HORRIBLY INFECTED SNAKES!!!"

Please, stop making me restate this. I'm begging ya.

 

[Robert Walker]

Its interesting how, if one comes on the BOI to talk about someone who sold them a herp, they better have every drop of hard evidence. But if someone wants to post innuendo, denigrating, insinuation about someone who posts here they are totally free to do so with no facts, no evidence, nothing.

Curious, no?

I don't believe KNOBTAIL was referring to you or anyone who has posted on this BOI. When I read the statement, "those out there who would love to stop , find health issues to curtail or make it more difficult to have any herps . Not to mention the transportation across state lines", I understood "those out there" to mean more like, govt. agencies, animal rights nuts, non-participants of the actual BOI thread etc.

I could be wrong, but I didn't see any personal dig at you, but rather a concern with things "get(ting) out of hand as it will surely lead to someone somewhere notifying authorities". Just my personal observation.

 

[thamnophis123]

You are 100% correct Robert. I misread his post. Worse, I failed to respond to the very pertinent questions he asked in regards to "what if?"

How do we respond responsibly to this disease if its found in dealers, wholesalers, pet stores? What about captive collections? Some associate it only with cool, wet/damp conditions but it has been diagnosed in tropical, dry conditions too. It can turn up anywhere apparently.

What if, is our next hurdle.

I don't believe KNOBTAIL was referring to you or anyone who has posted on this BOI. When I read the statement, "those out there who would love to stop , find health issues to curtail or make it more difficult to have any herps . Not to mention the transportation across state lines", I understood "those out there" to mean more like, govt. agencies, animal rights nuts, non-participants of the actual BOI thread etc.

I could be wrong, but I didn't see any personal dig at you, but rather a concern with things "get(ting) out of hand as it will surely lead to someone somewhere notifying authorities". Just my personal observation.

 

[thamnophis123]

Some aspects of the disease, if the moderators will allow it -

Many aspects of testing for this disease are peculiar. The cultures are overwhelmed by bacteria, for example. And biopsies often miss the disease because they don't lie directly under the skin lesion. So your local vet probably isn't going to be able to diagnose with out help from Dr Allender at U of IL.

The infection of this fungus (.) can be almost superficial, like the skin blisters we see on snakes kept in damp conditions, or snakes emerging from hibernation. But in some cases the fungus goes sub-dermal. It can get into bones and muscle. When it does, it cant be shed off. The sheds remove the outer problem, but the fungus grows from within the snake regardless of the dry / warm conditions the snake is kept in.

The initial symptoms are very much like the little white pustules showing on Logan's N. taxispilota pics upstream in this thread.

There is no known cure, but keeping the animal warm and dry can help.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

That would have been useful in the thread created to capture that topic that was kindly created by another member so that there would be a reduction in distraction from Underground Reptiles and what pertains to that company (such as any claims or evidence for or against them). The thread on the disease which may be at play here exists and instructions have been given to post about the disease in that thread unless it is going to involve Underground Reptiles more directly. Also, asking if you can call a person a twit after calling a person a twit is probably not the most wise means of discovering the answer, but sometimes wisdom is a deficient resource.