Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[Lucille]

I agree, my snake does look much better than the OP's snakes. However, she is displaying odd physical symptoms that, at their worst, are identical to some of the symptoms on the OP's animals. The white bumps are odd - from the moment they appeared, I knew they were odd. After researching any and all skin/scale issues I could find reference to, I just didn't have a good comparison, so I took a "wait and see" approach. That changed after I saw the OP's images. Are they as bad as the ones on his animals? No - they are not. I admit that readily. Is my snake displaying the other symptoms? No - not at this point. But the bumps are the same, and that's enough to make me take the issue seriously no matter the cause.

I'm not saying that I think this is SFD. I don't know what this is, and I'm hoping after my vet visit tomorrow and after the results come in I'll know a bit more. It just struck me as coincidental that he and I both purchased baby water snakes from the same seller at the same time that are showing very similar symptoms that I haven't seen anywhere else (I'm speaking to my snake's issue specifically here).

Until the results come in from both the OP's tests and the tests I'm having done tomorrow, I'm reserving judgement.

I think your description is a good, careful way to report what is going on with your snake. I look forward to further reports from you after your vet visit.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Very well said Logan, and for your sake I hope it turns out to be nothing. I'm by no means an expert on this species but your snake appears to be healthy and doing well, especially compared to the pictures I posted of the actual disease in question.. I'm glad to see that you didn't let this thread get to you and freak you out without reason.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Actually, that top photo does look very much like Joe's photo. At least to my eyes.
Thanks for posting.

I personally don't see a similarity. The snake in the picture I posted has an eye that's completely gone, the whole front and side of the face including the eye has basically become a large infection.

In the pictures the OP posted, I see a snake in shed with clouded over eyes (completely normal) and one that has some pretty noticeable nose rub. I've seen snakes with faces like that before, usually a result of them having an especially bad shed and then when the shed on the face finally does come off it actually rips off the underlying skin as well. I don't see any sort of infection which seems to be more typical of SFD.

Again, thats just my personal take. I posted those pictures so that people can come to their own conclusions, and hopefully so that anyone else reading this thread and worried their animal is going to die will see what the disease actually looks like.

 

[Fangthane]

Henceforth awaiting the test results.

So just to be clear, this thread was made to inform people that snakes sent by underground MIGHT be sick (based on your opinion and the vets...which of course means such a huge amount given zero test results). Is that why you stated very specifically that they sent you sick snakes (no question made, it was a statement made by you as Lucille has quoted).

Yes, the thread is pretty clearly intent on informing people of the possibility of sickness coming from Underground. Aside from that single sentence that a couple of you have latched on with a death-grip, the thread's intent has remained consistent throughout. I don't see one line posted well into the thread as changing its entire context, no matter how much you need it to. His beliefs are based not only on his vet's opinion, but also the opinions of:

Myself and other the other actual experts working on SFD in wild snakes never said this was definitively SFD. We said the lesions are consistent with SFD and the snake needs to be tested for SFD.

You sure do seem to want to ignore extremely important details regarding what led him to the point where this thread was created. Information that, by the way, had already been made available to anyone choosing to actually read this thread.

So you're not saying it's SFD, just that it's most likely SFD and a bunch of other people have also had snakes with the same symptoms that died.

Point out where he said there were a "bunch of people" involved. Not sure how:

Finally, there are two other competent snake keepers who bought captive born to wild caught adult Nerodia from Underground Reptiles. Similar symptoms showed up in their animals and some also died.

- somehow becomes a "bunch." To support your confirmation bias, you're consistently ignoring what was clearly stated, as well as manufacturing intent that was neither stated, nor even vaguely contextually implied. As this thread has repeatedly shown, your words don't line up with with reality, kinda like your "perfectly healthy" and "bad husbandry" assertions - assuming we're defining "reality" as that which has actually been written, or that which could be reasonably inferred. I know you didn't specify just whose bad husbandry you were referring to, but since you're obviously fine with inserting words and ideas where you see fit, I'm just gonna put "Joe's" in front of your claim of "bad husbandry" - a statement for which there would be zero supporting evidence; not to mention a very reliable testimonial to the contrary:

This isn't a case of bad husbandry. In fact, Joe's husbandry was stellar once the animals were in his care.

Just to further demonstrate why no one should take you even remotely seriously at this point, here's a bit of the ensuing discussion:

I'm confused. I thought that this "diagnosis" was made after seeing a couple pictures on a facebook page. How could you possibly know that his conditions were stellar and that they never diverted from what's ideal for this species ? Did you see his setups in person and work with him daily making sure they were staying correct? I did skip a page earlier, as I said, so maybe I missed that part.

Nice assumption there, the "couple pictures" thing. Now, for the reality:

I have been watching Joe set up his Nerodia enclosures and other photos of his husbandry on the Facebook page Colubrid Crazy for months. He has been documenting the entire process weekly and his setup is rather impressive (he posted photos and explained husbandry earlier in this thread), so yes, although I have not seen the enclosures in person, I have seen enough images of the process to arguably call Joe an expert with Nerodia husbandry. This is why, when Joe posted photos of diseased snakes, that myself and other experts on the page were alarmed that the disease originated with an exporter and not while in his care.

You're absolutely desperate to grasp at any imaginary straw possible, in your apparent need to cast doubt on the OP by any means necessary Thus far, the idea that he's responsible for the snakes' condition is as unsupported as the one that paints him as some libelous villain whose primary purpose is to smear Underground. When the big picture - something that small-minded people tend to have trouble grasping - is examined, there's just nothing to corroborate any claims of malicious intent. For example, he created THIS FB DISCUSSION GROUP for the purposes of discussing SFD. If one were to search that group, they'd find ZERO reference to Underground reptiles. If one were intent on merely besmirching Underground's [not so] good name, that seems like an awfully glaring omission. In the grand scheme of things it's obviously anecdotal - ultimately proving nothing. However, at the least it's more tangible than the wildly self-serving nonsense you're putting out there.

In reply to my comment on how Logan's situation fit with what's known of SFD, you replied:

Right. Except that she didn't describe any of those things lol. I wonder if you're actually reading the posts or just finding people to disagree with. You seem to like doing that on these types of threads.

Go back and read what the symptoms are and then read what she said she's been experiencing. They don't even sound remotely the same, but now she's scared her snake is going to die because of this thread.

Can't help noticing that you left "Nodule" out of your little list. Awfully convenient, if one considers that word's synonyms: "knot, lump, node, bump, swelling." Brief list of symptoms from a reputable source:

The most consistent clinical signs of SFD include scabs or crusty scales, subcutaneous nodules, premature separation of the outermost layer of the skin (stratum corneum) from the underlying skin (or abnormal molting), white opaque cloudiness of the eyes (not associated with molting), or localized thickening or crusting of the skin (hyperkeratosis). Skin ulcers, swelling of the face, and nodules in the deeper tissues of the head have also been documented.

Logan's statement:

It was around the end of October that I noticed tiny white blisters showing up on her scales, making her look rough and bumpy. I scoured the internet looking for something that resembled her issue, but everything I read about blister disease and other skin lesions had pictures that looked nothing like her issue. I decided to wait for her to shed, which she did a day or two later. As the OP mentioned, after her shed, she looked perfectly fine again. This being my first water snake, I attributed the rough and bumpy look to a potential shedding issue and continued to monitor her. It happened again before her last shed, and once again, cleared up completely afterward. Now they're coming back.

In some documented cases, the physical manifestations of the disease went away and then returned - just like she described. So, that part fits. In the course of acquiring your fancy education, did you somehow manage to avoid learning what "recurring" meant? Now, to a layman who may not habitually describe medical conditions, "blisters" sure could be used in place of "nodules." You know, the word you chose to leave out of your list of symptoms, the one which is synonymous with "bump." But, aside from that, yeah, sure, her description isn't even "remotely" the same, "lol." If you don't see the glaring similarities, it's because you actively don't want to.

I can't help but feel like you're trying way too hard to make a case that isn't there.

Not sure I've ever seen a clearer example of someone projecting. Yeah, I'm obviously the one with the inability to keep up, comprehend, or comment in a manner showing honesty and integrity. nick, it's funny, how you're so flagrantly ignoring some things, while inserting some others, all in support of your vehement opposition to this thread's very existence. If I'd had any doubts about whether you had a proclivity towards intellectual dishonesty, you've done nothing short of continuing to strive to remove them.

I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order.

Those are essentially my thoughts, as well. Given that he clearly put sincere effort into gathering the information that led to the conclusion that his snakes may be infected - as well as the credibility and trustworthiness of the professionals who've given him their opinions - I think any plaintiff's representation may have trouble proving that this thread was posted negligently. That's assuming he'd find an attorney who would file the suit on the force of the following line:

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes."

I guess there's always some shyster out there who's willing to take on any paying gig. Frankly, to a layman, the case seems flimsy to me - assuming that the impending test results don't make it an effectively moot point. If one's to insinuate that the OP is cowering in the background, quivering over the prospect of an impending defamation case, it certainly seems to suggest that that person believes that there actually is a winnable case. It's a shame that the Florida bar doesn't seem to take very kindly to the idea of reciprocity. Otherwise, such an out-of-state attorney who felt strongly about the situation, and believed their evidence to be compelling, could offer Underground discounted representation.

Where are all of those other people?

To those who want to act as if something in the herp world doesn't exist at all if it's not posted on the BOI - enough citation has already been given, so that anyone sincerely interested in having verification of heretofore unsourced statements could easily have done so themselves. Since it seems some would rather just ask where these other people are, apparently implying that the OP lied about their very existence, I went and found them for you - you're welcome. Since you're apparently someone who's operating under the assumption that the last word is somehow the most important, have at it. If I haven't already clearly demonstrated just how a couple are making this thread into a farce that it never needed to be - no matter what the test results end up showing - I'm not going to bother putting any further effort into doing so. For realz this time. I guess I'll have to be content with the idea that we're clearly seeing very different things. I just suggest that everyone actually read everything thoroughly.

Finally - I suspect "Bananners" isn't the one party's actual surname, but she hasn't yet read my FB request for that piece of information. If the Mods are in a hurry to have her last name, I suppose I'll have to take the ding, and live with the shame of knowing that that deviation from protocol makes me a bad, bad man.

 

[Fangthane]

I went and found them for you

Apparently, they didn't attach. Here.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I had to stop reading halfway through because you just sound like a kid who got his feelings hurt. I'll try to be more considerate of you next time I post something dan.

I'm sorry that I didn't word things just right and it bothered you. Let me try this instead: no one the OP mentioned has come forward to corroborate his claim. Logan specifically stated that her snakes do not look anywhere near the OPs. I posted pictures of what SFD actuallly looks like, and it doesn't match any of the pictures the OP or Logan have shown. The symptoms I listed that you say I "conveniently left out nodule (lol?)" were copied directly from what the OP said. I didn't edit anything, I literally quoted what he described as the symptoms and said that Logans didn't match that.

If you're going to try to have an argument, at least try to be accurate. Otherwise go cry somewhere else where people can't see through your BS.

 

[tlmoon]

To be fair, pics of snakes that have died (those snakes looked dead anyway) from SFD presumably show the worst signs of the disease, and a snake with an earlier, more mild infection might not "look" like it has the disease, compared to a pic of a severely affected snake. It sounds like Logan is on the right track with having a vet check it, and I look forward to hearing more about how that goes. I agree that it's too early to say that it is for sure SFD, but it's also too early to definitively say it is absolutely not.

I think it would have been more prudent for the OP to either wait for the pcr testing to come back positive, or not name UR, but I don't fault him for caring about a potentially very damaging disease. I'm not sure why he kind of went off the rails there, but nevertheless, it was probably only a matter of time before this disease started showing up in captive snakes via WC infections. I suppose it's also entirely possible to collect stuff out of the backyard - dirt, wood, etc - and bring spores in to infect snakes via that route as well. It seems to be an issue that needs a lot of study, for sure.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Apparently, they didn't attach. Here.

Just to be clear, Dan, are nematodes another symptom of SFD? That seems to be your new claim since the rest kind of fell through and that's the quote you decided to post. Or are you confirming what I said in the very beginning of this thread, that WC animals often carry parasites and disease and that you should expect such if buying them. Thank you for proving my point? Only took you 10 pages.

I think you should have gone with what you said a while ago and stopped posting until the test results came back. For obvious reasons

 

[Logan256]

I took all three water snakes to the vet's office today, and in doing so I discovered that one of the two previously unaffected WC snakes is now showing skin symptoms as well. I've been trying to disturb them as little as possible since their arrival due to elevated stress levels, so other than routine maintenance, they hadn't been handled since Friday. When I went to bag the adult brown water snake, I found that it's now having what appears to be a very similar issue. I say similar because I've never seen the symptoms on a snake that size, and I'm not sure how the size difference translates in regard to how the bumps appear. My baby brown water snake is bump free at this point following her last shed, and the remaining banded water snake is showing no problems at this time.

My vet examined each snake closely and performed a fecal flotation on the adult brown water snake, which came back negative for parasites. She was unable to get a good enough sample from the other two to test. She performed a skin scrape on the adult brown as well, focusing on the affected areas, with no findings on the slide. She examined the shed skin from the baby brown water snake's last two sheds, but didn't test it today. I was unable to get the biopsy performed as I had wanted, because she was unable to contact Matthew Allender during my visit. She assured me that she would discuss this with him and get back to me on moving forward with that as quickly as possible. In the meantime, she prescribed Griseofulvin Liquid to treat the snakes that were displaying symptoms.

I took several photos that I'll be adding - the adult brown as of today, the baby brown with no bumps at this time, her previous sheds that do show evidence of the bumps, photos taken while in the exam room, and photos of the invoice and prescription. Once we get the biopsy scheduled I'll update that as well. The vet acknowledged that she has never seen symptoms quite like these, but didn't want to speculate on a possible cause at this point.

 

[Logan256]

Photos taken while in the exam room -

 

[Logan256]

Invoice and prescription -

 

[snakesareawesome]

Login, thanks for getting your vet involved. Look forward to hearing the results.

 

[tlmoon]

Thanks for updating, Logan. I'm glad your snakes saw the vet and I wish them a speedy recovery. Hopefully the griseofulvin will knock that infection back down. If it does, that would imply, though not definitively prove, that it's SFD (or at least some fungal disease). It would be great to get biopsies to show one way or the other but of course you and your vet would have to weigh the risks of a biopsy if indeed your snakes get back to full health. I'm hoping they will!

 

[EdwardK]

If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.

Its already been determined to have a very wide distribution and yes it can do just fine in the environment see ALLENDER, Matthew C., et al. "The natural history, ecology, and epidemiology of Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola and its potential impact on free-ranging snake populations." (2015).

http://wwx.inhs.illinois.edu/files/...hiodiicola_Allender_et_al_Fungal_Ecol2015.pdf

some comments

Ed

 

[Randy F]

So my take on this thread is that a member that had posted probably less than 40 posts decides to try and contribute in the best way he figures, then gets blasted by people doing this for up to and over a decade. People that know they are wrong get defensive, deflect, and run away. People who are innocent do the same and take it worse, because they are double dipped as victims. Now there are some great people out there that really do our community a huge service bringing scammers to light. I am over ecstatic that Robert is back as a moderator where he belongs. Now maybe this guy approached it wrong, but could anyone try and help him do it in a more tactful way? Do we have to beat everyone up because they are guilty until proven trustworthy? I see a guy who has a vet bill so has a entry level of accountability. Don't know Logan, but she spoke up contributing to the cause. Vanessa has and deserves much respect as does Nickolas, for what they bring to the table. I am sure they both can and will agree that when you send samples out, it can take awhile to get the results back, especially during a holiday. I have seen samples sent off to Florida and results not back for over a month. Usually these specialists in a certain field have many cases and specimens, not drinking coffee waiting for work. Now had someone given him a direction to take and show more interest in seeing if the danger was real, he would not be banned and could share the results when they arrive. Now if and when results show up, who jumps up and takes responsibility for possibly losing valuable information for the community? I just think we should keep hammering on people who have stolen money, animals, scam, etc., but maybe give a little room to people and guidance to those who are supposedly help and then let them become a hero or hang themselves.

 

[Pasodama]

Now had someone given him a direction to take and show more interest in seeing if the danger was real, he would not be banned and could share the results when they arrive. Now if and when results show up, who jumps up and takes responsibility for possibly losing valuable information for the community?

My understanding is that the OP is on an Admin imposed, short, "time out" and not on a perma ban.
Hopefully, when he is able to post again, he will post the results whenever he gets them. As you pointed out, it could take a bit of time before the OP does get the results.

....

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

He has the ability to bring his evidence to the table in this thread since it relates to Underground by construction and it would be good to contribute more information to the situation surrounding the snakes he and others have bought from the source which could carry the pathogen or something like it. He also, thanks to Dan, has a thread that can serve to foster discussion over the disease itself aside from Underground, concerns over that disease, and cultivate a plan for how to proceed (as well as guide those new to it).

There were instructions issued here regarding anonymous third-party quotations, warnings about repeated off-topic tangential deviations (with a go-forward alternative suggested and generated to enable avoidance of those as problems), and so forth. He was not the only member to ignore some of those things. More than one member received infractions and not every instance was given an infraction because it was hoped there would be some self-control. If enough infractions are earned and applied, a system-generated temporary ban can come into effect. Up to that point, a person is perfectly free to stop, regroup, and conduct oneself in a manner that works with, rather than against, the framework of rules here. Not only did some members not follow instructions to avoid infractions (and outright ignored them as though they deserve special exception), but there were instances where the words typed showed that it was already known that things would or could be crossing the line in some of the very posts that crossed them.

Everyone posting here is capable of self-management. When some knowingly refuse to do so, their choices can trigger results and those results are pretty basic in terms of cause and effect.

I feel the BOI-relevant pieces are important. I feel the off-topic pieces are important. Format and placement are also important here and the rules and structure are part of what keeps things from degenerating as badly as they otherwise could. I want Joe to post what he finds. I want Joe to discuss the disease itself. People are also free to examine what is claimed or stated. It is important that these be performed in the correct sections and it is important to observe and comply with the expectations for each section.

Also, from looking at the argumentation style, one should not be dismissive of counterpoints with language such as "silly" and so on. If there is counterevidence to refute an alternative position, please supply it. Otherwise, it at least appears to be an emotional reaction to exposure of a gap. If the idea is to educate and share, please do so. Handwaving while ignoring an opposing point does not help to lend soundness regarding one's position.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I took all three water snakes to the vet's office today, and in doing so I discovered that one of the two previously unaffected WC snakes is now showing skin symptoms as well. I've been trying to disturb them as little as possible since their arrival due to elevated stress levels, so other than routine maintenance, they hadn't been handled since Friday. When I went to bag the adult brown water snake, I found that it's now having what appears to be a very similar issue. I say similar because I've never seen the symptoms on a snake that size, and I'm not sure how the size difference translates in regard to how the bumps appear. My baby brown water snake is bump free at this point following her last shed, and the remaining banded water snake is showing no problems at this time.

My vet examined each snake closely and performed a fecal flotation on the adult brown water snake, which came back negative for parasites. She was unable to get a good enough sample from the other two to test. She performed a skin scrape on the adult brown as well, focusing on the affected areas, with no findings on the slide. She examined the shed skin from the baby brown water snake's last two sheds, but didn't test it today. I was unable to get the biopsy performed as I had wanted, because she was unable to contact Matthew Allender during my visit. She assured me that she would discuss this with him and get back to me on moving forward with that as quickly as possible. In the meantime, she prescribed Griseofulvin Liquid to treat the snakes that were displaying symptoms.

I took several photos that I'll be adding - the adult brown as of today, the baby brown with no bumps at this time, her previous sheds that do show evidence of the bumps, photos taken while in the exam room, and photos of the invoice and prescription. Once we get the biopsy scheduled I'll update that as well. The vet acknowledged that she has never seen symptoms quite like these, but didn't want to speculate on a possible cause at this point.

Now THIS is how a responsible person handles this type of situation. I think getting a fecal test for parasites and investigating other causes rather than simply jumping to conclusions was a very good idea. You did say yours were purchased as captive bred, so the lack of parasites is expected but still good news.

Your posts have been very succinct and descriptive...it's unfortunate the OP didn't handle this matter in the same way as you. If he had I have no doubt that people on this forum would have approached this situation and his claims much differently.

I agree, the bumps do look very similar to what the OP posted, but still very dissimilar from the pictures of SFD shown in the article the OP shared (that I posted pictures from a couple pages back). As another member mentioned, those could be pictures of advanced stages of the disease whereas yours are still in early stages, however given that the OP claimed one of his animals already died it should have been displaying late-stage symptoms as well (IF it actually died from this disease).

I hope you can keep us updated and that it turns out to be nothing, and thank you for treating this issue responsibly. Too bad I can't give more karma to you right now because you earned it

 

[Logan256]

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. I, too, hope my snakes recover Hopefully further testing on my end (as well as the OP's results) will clarify this issue for everyone involved and for those that are following the situation.

 

[tim brophy]

Its already been determined to have a very wide distribution and yes it can do just fine in the environment see ALLENDER, Matthew C., et al. "The natural history, ecology, and epidemiology of Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola and its potential impact on free-ranging snake populations." (2015).

http://wwx.inhs.illinois.edu/files/...hiodiicola_Allender_et_al_Fungal_Ecol2015.pdf

some comments

Ed

Thank you for providing this citation.