Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[thamnophis123]

My vet called today to let me know the tests came back "high positive" for SFD, i.e. Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola.

She's having trouble emailing the PDF so I may have to pick it up tomorrow, but wanted to let anyone sitting on potentially sick snakes to a.) speak out, and b.) see your vet (and isolate your sick animals!)

It'll be interesting to see if the rest of my Nerodia purchased from Underground will succumb, or, like some snakes inexplicably do, recover - or rather, have symptoms diminish to a tolerable level.

I think, setting the quibbling aside (for a moment , there are some serious questions about where the emergence of this disease takes our hobby. Its arguable that it will just mean people will have a lot more herps die, not unlike the 40-50% of leopard geckos sold in the US with crypto. Just the cost of having herps for pets? With no real responsibility for the breeder/seller to have vet checks, or provide health guarantees?

Or will it push the gov't to step in and halt at least aspects of trade.

I know one thing. If the attitude is defiant, the govt will be quicker to step in and stop it. If there is a sense or responsible self policing, maybe less so.

We'll see I guess.

 

[thamnophis123]

How dare you?

My personal opinion as to what might be happening in the background, I think there is probably good reason why the OP is suddenly anxious to claim he never made any accusations.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

My vet called today to let me know the tests came back "high positive" for SFD, i.e. Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola.

She's having trouble emailing the PDF so I may have to pick it up tomorrow, but wanted to let anyone sitting on potentially sick snakes to a.) speak out, and b.) see your vet (and isolate your sick animals!)

It'll be interesting to see if the rest of my Nerodia purchased from Underground will succumb, or, like some snakes inexplicably do, recover - or rather, have symptoms diminish to a tolerable level.

I think, setting the quibbling aside (for a moment , there are some serious questions about where the emergence of this disease takes our hobby. Its arguable that it will just mean people will have a lot more herps die, not unlike the 40-50% of leopard geckos sold in the US with crypto. Just the cost of having herps for pets? With no real responsibility for the breeder/seller to have vet checks, or provide health guarantees?

Or will it push the gov't to step in and halt at least aspects of trade.

I know one thing. If the attitude is defiant, the govt will be quicker to step in and stop it. If there is a sense or responsible self policing, maybe less so.

We'll see I guess.

That is valuable information. Thank you for sharing it and I am sure the PDF of the results will be appreciated by many.

 

[Helenthereef]

with Nick. Despite the ins and outs of the discussion, it's very important that you brought this to light, people need to be made aware of the disease.

I'm only sorry it's been confirmed in your snakes, hope they do as well as possible now there's a diagnosis.

 

[snakesareawesome]

Joe, I am not surprised at the result based on everything leading up to the test result. I personally would euthanize all of them, they will do nothing but pose an ongoing risk to any animals present and future you may have. As far as what we should change, I think we need to be skeptical of anyone holding animals along with native snakes from infected areas. It can also persist in the environment, so other objects from infected areas could be infected, too. Furthermore, I have personally had several snakes sneak into my basement and overwinter so there could be risk even if you don't keep any natives or animals that have ever been housed in the same premises as natives. Granted some of these may be unlikely risks, it's still worth sealing up any building that houses snakes to the best of our ability. I still have no idea how they get in, newer house, tightly sealed.

 

[snakesareawesome]

Now that it's been confirmed, I think UG reptiles facility should be closely inspected. It would be good to know the source of the snakes and anywhere and everywhere they were held as as all of those places possibly could be sources of infection. While the smoking gun is still missing, it isn't looking too good and I hope they will work quickly to clear their name or disclose the source of the problem so that people can be sure it's been addressed.

 

[thamnophis123]

It is my sincere hope that UR does the right thing and have their facilities / animals tested by a lab knowledgable and experienced with this disease. If they don't I am encouraging the Florida Fish and Wildlife to do the testing for them. Rather than being "afraid of being sued" as one poster who clearly doesn't know me asserted, my intention is to encourage UR to do the right thing here in the strongest possible terms, and to follow though with other large scale breeders, importers, exporters, dealers, etc.

As far as euthanizing - I have a number of snakes, all of which I consider pets, including these water snakes. I believe in treating even lowly snakes as animals deserving of the best care we can give them. So putting anyone of them down would not be easy.

That said - their is a cost benefit that I'll have to do.

Now that it's been confirmed, I think UG reptiles facility should be closely inspected. It would be good to know the source of the snakes and anywhere and everywhere they were held as as all of those places possibly could be sources of infection. While the smoking gun is still missing, it isn't looking too good and I hope they will work quickly to clear their name or disclose the source of the problem so that people can be sure it's been addressed.

 

[Logan256]

My vet called today to let me know the tests came back "high positive" for SFD, i.e. Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola.

She's having trouble emailing the PDF so I may have to pick it up tomorrow, but wanted to let anyone sitting on potentially sick snakes to a.) speak out, and b.) see your vet (and isolate your sick animals!)

It'll be interesting to see if the rest of my Nerodia purchased from Underground will succumb, or, like some snakes inexplicably do, recover - or rather, have symptoms diminish to a tolerable level.

I think, setting the quibbling aside (for a moment , there are some serious questions about where the emergence of this disease takes our hobby. Its arguable that it will just mean people will have a lot more herps die, not unlike the 40-50% of leopard geckos sold in the US with crypto. Just the cost of having herps for pets? With no real responsibility for the breeder/seller to have vet checks, or provide health guarantees?

Or will it push the gov't to step in and halt at least aspects of trade.

I know one thing. If the attitude is defiant, the govt will be quicker to step in and stop it. If there is a sense or responsible self policing, maybe less so.

We'll see I guess.

Joe, thank you so much for coming back with the results of your test. I was so hoping the result would be negative, but as they say, it is what it is. I'm also looking forward to seeing the PDF. I plan on going ahead with the biopsy for my snakes from Underground that are showing symptoms, if for no other reason than to get confirmation from two sources. Good luck with your babies, and please keep us updated.

 

[thamnophis123]

Logan - First, thanks. Second, something I learned about biopsies for SFD - The area under the surface pustule can be clean. The underlying fungal infection can be anywhere other than where the surface infection shows itself.

I'm not an expert, but this is what I believe my vet learned from Dr Allenders lab. So biopsies can be false negatives.

As you know, there is no cure for this disease, though a number of things may help - low stress, warm, dry enclosures, etc. (I would suggest a good UV light too, but thats just speculation on my part.)

So rather than stress your snakes with a biopsy, maybe consider waiting till actual scabs show up. In my experience the scabs can be easily lifted and good swabs taken from beneath them. And os you know, these have to be sent to a lab with the qPCR protocol.

The white pustules on your snakes do look very much like the first signs of disease I saw on my snakes. Given that both were from the same source, both bought about the same time, and both kept in very good conditions once in our hands, it makes sense to strongly suspect UR as the source of the disease.

However, as I said before, some snakes show an inherent ability to fight off the disease. So you have that hope on your side. Best of luck to you. I'll post the PDF as soon as I get it, tomorrow at the latest.

Joe

Joe, thank you so much for coming back with the results of your test. I was so hoping the result would be negative, but as they say, it is what it is. I'm also looking forward to seeing the PDF. I plan on going ahead with the biopsy for my snakes from Underground that are showing symptoms, if for no other reason than to get confirmation from two sources. Good luck with your babies, and please keep us updated.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

And so it begins ! You dont honestly believe that Underground or any other reptile business would allow an encouraged testing from Fish and Wildlife. Its not going to happen, nor should it.

Not for the reasons you may have experienced. I was DIRECTLY involved when baby greens as well as many other turtles under 4 inches were being destroyed. Without any testing ! Lets call it confiscation. Forget F/W as there interest was in imported herps.

The Dept of Health got involved in NY and they would seize turtles and you never saw them again, nor was there ever any explanation as to what happens to them. That Joe, is not the end of the story. Other groups eagerly joined the bandwagon were more than delighted in fueling the flames not affiliated with the pet industry, to find an avenue suitable for stopping any kind of trade in the herp business.

It took a person like Marshall Meyers (PJAC) to basically halt the reckless attempts by people as well as agencies that i never even knew existed to prevent any other societies newly affiliated with attempting to destroy OUR industry. The outcome was the loss of an industry the death of thousands of turtles domestic and imported.

Dont think for one second that they did not try to come into our facility to see if we had under sized turtles. These do gooders were nervy enough to try ! That did not work out to well for them...

I realize your concern, but my suggestion would be to let it pass. If Underground was smart they refund you for your snake and any additional expense you may incurred but sometimes, there are more tears shed for the answered prayers then the unanswered ones. This kind of a Pandora box . Nothing useful can come out of this.

Using health issues as a vehicle is exactly what those groups dwell on who are hell bent on stopping trade.

I saw it as well with Ball pythons when we had a Q fever epidemic. i am positive i have the article on that and how we were all had to take blood tests. Myself and all our employees. The importation of Balls were halted until as well as those which were sold here in the states were counted for and YES. confiscated.

Just want to give you my take on this subject. JERRY

 

[snakesareawesome]

Logan, if your snakes also test positive, I think we're pretty close to that gun having some smoke rolling out the barrel! I hope you will get them tested, too.

 

[snakesareawesome]

The government is always either useless or destructive IMO but nonetheless perhaps peddling 5$ wc watersnakes from infected regions should be voluntarily halted.

 

[thamnophis123]

Here is a (bad) pic from Infectious Diseases and Pathology of Reptiles: Color Atlas and Text by Elliott R. Jacobson. If you look hard you can see the white pustules on the snake's skin. Looks familiar doesn't it?

If you have ever tried to keep Acrochordus granulates (the little file snake) in captivity I can almost guarantee you it died - and of a similar fungal infection thats in the pic and that we might be dealing with today.

The snake fungal diseases are really new and poorly understood. The one in the pic, like almost all, used to be called "the CANV". That stands for "the Chrysosporium anamorph of Nannizziopsis viresii.

Recently our SFD was discovered and separated out from that broad CANV designation. When they went back to test snakes in museum collections they found that SFD showed up rather suddenly in the mid 80s (don't quote me, thats apprx) We had fungal diseases before that surely. Researchers and authors reference hibernation skin fungus just like they do now. But the specific, deadly, fungal species seems to be a recent arrival, or recent mutation.

The point I'm making is - those white dots aren't good. And if snakes coming from UR are showing them broadly, we need to be after them to address it.

I agree, my snake does look much better than the OP's snakes. However, she is displaying odd physical symptoms that, at their worst, are identical to some of the symptoms on the OP's animals. The white bumps are odd - from the moment they appeared, I knew they were odd. After researching any and all skin/scale issues I could find reference to, I just didn't have a good comparison, so I took a "wait and see" approach.

 

[NathanKS]

And so it begins ! You dont honestly believe that Underground or any other reptile business would allow an encouraged testing from Fish and Wildlife. Its not going to happen, nor should it.

Not for the reasons you may have experienced. I was DIRECTLY involved when baby greens as well as many other turtles under 4 inches were being destroyed. Without any testing ! Lets call it confiscation. Forget F/W as there interest was in imported herps.

The Dept of Health got involved in NY and they would seize turtles and you never saw them again, nor was there ever any explanation as to what happens to them. That Joe, is not the end of the story. Other groups eagerly joined the bandwagon were more than delighted in fueling the flames not affiliated with the pet industry, to find an avenue suitable for stopping any kind of trade in the herp business.

It took a person like Marshall Meyers (PJAC) to basically halt the reckless attempts by people as well as agencies that i never even knew existed to prevent any other societies newly affiliated with attempting to destroy OUR industry. The outcome was the loss of an industry the death of thousands of turtles domestic and imported.

Dont think for one second that they did not try to come into our facility to see if we had under sized turtles. These do gooders were nervy enough to try ! That did not work out to well for them...

I realize your concern, but my suggestion would be to let it pass. If Underground was smart they refund you for your snake and any additional expense you may incurred but sometimes, there are more tears shed for the answered prayers then the unanswered ones. This kind of a Pandora box . Nothing useful can come out of this.[

Using health issues as a vehicle is exactly what those groups dwell on who are hell bent on stopping trade.

I saw it as well with Ball pythons when we had a Q fever epidemic. i am positive i have the article on that and how we were all had to take blood tests. Myself and all our employees. The importation of Balls were halted until as well as those which were sold here in the states were counted for and YES. confiscated.

Just want to give you my take on this subject. JERRY

I've been following this thread from the beginning and fully agree with you on the bolded.

I primarily breed newts in my personal collection and the blanket ban on the trade because of bSAL concern had killed the entire caudata industry.
there has been no confirmed cases of bSAL in the united states populations, yet 6 months after a petition from SAVE THE FROGS. FWS announced a blanket ban on the entire genus.

By continuing to threaten underground with a FWS, OP is only opening the door for FWS to expand the Lacy act to include any species with the potential to get SFD. the history of the Lacy act shows that FWS is not willing to work with hobbyists, nor listen to public outcry.

 

[thamnophis123]

As I've said repeatedly, I have not asked, nor do I expect UR to refund a single penny to me for any reason. I wish posters could get by that assignment of selfish motivation on my part.

And while I am sorry for your personal experience, I don't believe that "nothing useful can come out of this"

At the very least, Florida Fish and Wildlife can (they don't have to ask permission) take any animals they want for a vet check. If the animals are found to be diseased I assume (but do not know) that they can halt their sale.

At the least, this would help inform the herp buying public of the disease threat, and put other large scale sellers on notice.

Isn't bringing this problem to the public a good thing? I mean, it may turn out to be a relatively minor issue, easily contained, or largely restricted to a few wild caught populations. But shouldn't we ere on the side of caution while we figure this all out?

I realize your concern, but my suggestion would be to let it pass. If Underground was smart they refund you for your snake and any additional expense you may incurred but sometimes, there are more tears shed for the answered prayers then the unanswered ones. This kind of a Pandora box . Nothing useful can come out of this.

 

[Logan256]

Logan, if your snakes also test positive, I think we're pretty close to that gun having some smoke rolling out the barrel! I hope you will get them tested, too.

I fully intend to go forward with testing them, though it looks like the subject of those tests may turn out to be the adult brown water snake instead of the baby, as his symptoms seem to be more aggressive. If both are symptomatic at the same time, both will be tested, and I'll post the results here as soon as they come in. There is still a possibility that, in spite of similarities between the OP's animals and my own, they could have a different problem. Testing is the only way to know for sure, and for the sake of this thread, the source, these water snakes, and my other animals - I want there to be no doubt.

In regards to how this may spread, I want to make a note here that the rat snakes and iguana that arrived in the same shipment as my baby brown water snake (and that have shared the same quarantine room for over two months now) are currently thriving, with no sign of problems at all. They will spend extra time in quarantine for my own peace of mind, but so far, so good.

 

[thamnophis123]

I primarily breed newts in my personal collection and the blanket ban on the trade because of bSAL concern had killed the entire caudata industry.
there has been no confirmed cases of bSAL in the united states populations, yet 6 months after a petition from SAVE THE FROGS. FWS announced a blanket ban on the entire genus.

Killed the entire Caudata industry, but maybe saved the lives of millions of Caudata. Thats a trade off I'll happily accept

There have been no confirmed cases of bSAL in the US, primarily because of the blanket ban. Seems like a recipe for effective intervention to me.

I understand if your motivation is to sell animals and that you bristle at any efforts to protect animals if those protections would interfere with your profits. We see this in all aspects of the animal agriculture and animal pet industry, from cruel factory farms to puppy mills.

But I hope most of us can look past narrow self interests and focus on the greater good. Our president elect excluded of course.

 

[snowgyre]

I realize your concern, but my suggestion would be to let it pass. If Underground was smart they refund you for your snake and any additional expense you may incurred but sometimes, there are more tears shed for the answered prayers then the unanswered ones. This kind of a Pandora box . Nothing useful can come out of this.

Using health issues as a vehicle is exactly what those groups dwell on who are hell bent on stopping trade.

I highly disagree and find this thinking grossly unethical. You can't "take back" diseases. Once it's introduced to a novel environment it's game over. We've seen this with everything from white-nosed syndrome in bats and irresponsible spelunkers spreading the disease, to Bsal in salamanders, to now SFD in snakes. This issue is too big to be ignored. As with any scenario, it's always the few bad eggs that ruin it for everyone else, but there are consequences for everything. SFD can be spread into the environment simply by the inappropriate disposal of bedding.

The conservation of our wildlife should always be prioritized over what is essentially a selfish desire to keep these organisms in captivity as pets. Always. "Conservation through captive propagation" is a weak platitude and, indeed, a tremendous falsehood, if we sweep disease issues like this under the table just because it's inconvenient. Spreading diseases is the antithesis of conservation.

Thank you for giving us the update, Joe. I am deeply concerned about how far this problem has now spread and dismayed that a hobby I personally enjoy was the vector for that spread.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

As I've said repeatedly, I have not asked, nor do I expect UR to refund a single penny to me for any reason. I wish posters could get by that assignment of selfish motivation on my part.

And while I am sorry for your personal experience, I don't believe that "nothing useful can come out of this"

At the very least, Florida Fish and Wildlife can (they don't have to ask permission) take any animals they want for a vet check. If the animals are found to be diseased I assume (but do not know) that they can halt their sale.

At the least, this would help inform the herp buying public of the disease threat, and put other large scale sellers on notice.

Isn't bringing this problem to the public a good thing? I mean, it may turn out to be a relatively minor issue, easily contained, or largely restricted to a few wild caught populations. But shouldn't we ere on the side of caution while we figure this all out?

Just out of curiosity, why do you think they would only confiscate animals that appeared sick and not ALL of the snakes under the assumption that "any of them might have it"? These are the same people who said that reticulated pythons shouldn't be transferred across state lines because they could develop invasive populations even in states where temps get subzero, which is literally an immediate death sentence for that species.

You are giving them way too much credit. These are not reasonable people who listen to fact or science.

 

[snakesareawesome]

I really don't see any comparison between Bsal and SFD. SFD occurs in free ranging native animals and threatens to spread *into* captivity. Bsal occured in captive salamanders and threatened to spread *into* the wild. The US is a salamander diversity hotspot and the salamander trade was so tiny that it didn't need special consideration... although one could argue that the trade in watersnakes falls into the same obscure category.