Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[KNOBTAIL]

I seriously doubt F/W could test for anything beyond entry in the US. Confiscation, YES but in order to go into your facility they would need a warrant. That is not going to happen either. As a point of information , the testing that we went through (providing blood samples) because of the Ball Python issue, was voluntary.

Insofar as motivation to sell animals, and profit remarks, would be best well served if you keep them to yourself and keep politics out of this venue. At this point, the greater good would be best served if you move on and possibly find another hobby that may be less aggravating or financially less stressful. Nothing further as i pointed out can be accomplished with Underground .

Then again, thats not to say that the problem may not rear its ugly head from other dealers under other circumstances. Thats the industry we chose Joe ! Sometimes it may not provide the enjoyment we would love to see .

More importantly, as i indicated when i first got involved, there are those out there who would love to prevent you from even having a snake. JERRY

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I highly disagree and find this thinking grossly unethical. You can't "take back" diseases. Once it's introduced to a novel environment it's game over. We've seen this with everything from white-nosed syndrome in bats and irresponsible spelunkers spreading the disease, to Bsal in salamanders, to now SFD in snakes. This issue is too big to be ignored. As with any scenario, it's always the few bad eggs that ruin it for everyone else, but there are consequences for everything. SFD can be spread into the environment simply by the inappropriate disposal of bedding.

The conservation of our wildlife should always be prioritized over what is essentially a selfish desire to keep these organisms in captivity as pets. Always. "Conservation through captive propagation" is a weak platitude and, indeed, a tremendous falsehood, if we sweep disease issues like this under the table just because it's inconvenient. Spreading diseases is the antithesis of conservation.

Thank you for giving us the update, Joe. I am deeply concerned about how far this problem has now spread and dismayed that a hobby I personally enjoy was the vector for that spread.

This is very well said and I can't disagree with your point, but given how fish and wildlife has handle reptile issues in the VERY recent past (read Lacey act), I do not trust them to handle any issue regarding the trade with any amount of reason or logic. It is asking for disaster to provide them with ammunition and then let them fire at will. Their aim has already been proven to be way off the mark.

 

[Kittycatpenut]

Since fish and wildlife is such a problem, why don't we take the isolation of this disease into our own hands?

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

 

[snakesareawesome]

Any movement of wild caught snakes from infected regions has the possibility of spreading it. There's no way to do that and be 100% sure someone's collection won't get trashed. I doubt those 5$ snakes get very close inspection or are kept in pristine conditions at all times else how could they sell so cheap!

 

[thamnophis123]

I understand your distinction, and I think it has some validity. However, it might be also true to say that SFD occurs in isolated wild populations mostly in the eastern US and threatens to become a worldwide threat due to the transport of captive animals, wild collected or not.

I'm not saying this is likely, but it is one rational way to perceive this disease.

I really don't see any comparison between Bsal and SFD. SFD occurs in free ranging native animals and threatens to spread *into* captivity. Bsal occured in captive salamanders and threatened to spread *into* the wild. The US is a salamander diversity hotspot and the salamander trade was so tiny that it didn't need special consideration... although one could argue that the trade in watersnakes falls into the same obscure category.

 

[thamnophis123]

I don't think blanket accusations against govt conservation groups is relevant here. At the very least, it reflects an an admission of a seriously biased position that undermines all of your previous assertions - not that they really needed anymore undermining than they all ready got. Sting. Zing. Ouch.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think they would only confiscate animals that appeared sick and not ALL of the snakes under the assumption that "any of them might have it"? These are the same people who said that reticulated pythons shouldn't be transferred across state lines because they could develop invasive populations even in states where temps get subzero, which is literally an immediate death sentence for that species.

You are giving them way too much credit. These are not reasonable people who listen to fact or science.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I don't think blanket accusations against govt conservation groups is relevant here. At the very least, it reflects an an admission of a seriously biased position that undermines all of your previous assertions - not that they really needed anymore undermining than they all ready got. Sting. Zing. Ouch.

You figured it out, I am biased against a group who have proven themselves to use no logic or reason for the decisions they make which affect thousands of people and animals.

I guess being so ignorant of the reptile trade that you aren't aware of how poorly the Lacey act issue has been handled would cause you to not understand (you know, even though that's all anyone in the hobby has been talking about for the last two years).

I guess if you worked with animals worth more than $3 you might have been aware of it, but I know everyone has their own budget.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

"Since fish and wildlife is such a problem, why don't we take the isolation of this disease into our own hands?"

That would be a great idea Maddison, but We (the pet industry) does not have what you would call a stellar reputation for monitoring our own bad behavior. F/W are only concerned about regulating import and exports. I know from my own experience that when i was in the business, it was a kinder, less concerning group of federal agents who we would see on a regular basis and the relationship was amicable.

Individuals who imported infrequently in the late 60s and 70s were responsible for the introduction of illegal reptiles and amphibians. They basically were under the radar as there shipments were very small, not worthy sometimes for inspection and cleared by airlines who needed freight business. Such as Pan Am.

Once these herps reached the open market, some one probably notified F/W and the inspections increased and delays became common place. Thats how these thing begin. Its always someone within our own industry that makes it worse for everyone else.

 

[snakesareawesome]

Guys I think the fear of a ban on snakes from SFD is a wild idea and extremely unlikely to happen. They also discussed banning frogs but didn't because the fungus was already wide spread and the trade in frogs was much larger than salamanders. Yes, under a democratic appointed interior, they did ban a lot of salamanders from a disease which absolutely occurred in captivity and that no proof what so ever existed that it was in the wild here. Now, completely flip that and you're going to have Republican nominated leaders making decisions about snakes (which half the country wishes didn't exist) and a disease that is already widespread in the wild. I think those are some pretty wild comparisons.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Guys I think the fear of a ban on snakes from SFD is a wild idea and extremely unlikely to happen. They also discussed banning frogs but didn't because the fungus was already wide spread and the trade in frogs was much larger than salamanders. Yes, under a democratic appointed interior, they did ban a lot of salamanders from a disease which absolutely occurred in captivity and that no proof what so ever existed that it was in the wild here. Now, completely flip that and you're going to have Republican nominated leaders making decisions about snakes (which half the country wishes didn't exist) and a disease that is already widespread in the wild. I think those are some pretty wild comparisons.

Again though, the decisions they make are not based on any fact or logic. They banned transport of Burmese pythons and reticulated pythons because they thought people would let them loose and they'd take over in the wild. If I left my retic out for one night here in WA it would be dead, but I can't take it to ID (a 10 minute drive away) or it's a felony. Tell me how that poses a threat of any kind to anyone or anything.

Trust me, I get what you're saying because you're speaking logically and factually, but that's not how they think. All you have to do is look at the Lacey act.

 

[thamnophis123]

I'm not sure what the dollar value of the animal has to do with this. Apparently this is the lens you see this though? If its cheap, its not valuable? Or the people who keep these unvalued animals are somehow less than?

And this from a man who makes their living selling ball pythons and scaleless rat snakes?

You figured it out, I am biased against a group who have proven themselves to use no logic or reason for the decisions they make which affect thousands of people and animals.

I guess being so ignorant of the reptile trade that you aren't aware of how poorly the Lacey act issue has been handled would cause you to not understand (you know, even though that's all anyone in the hobby has been talking about for the last two years).

I guess if you worked with animals worth more than $3 you might have been aware of it, but I know everyone has their own budget.

 

[thamnophis123]

Actually, I think you're wrong on almost every count here.

Florida F?W has the right to inspect, and therefore does not need a warrant. No less than an inspector needs a warrant to inspect that which they have authority over. I spoke directly to those who have authority over captive wild animals and was told by them that UR is in their jurisdiction. UR told me themselves that FL F/W visits them regularly.

Second, as this forum provides for the expression of opinions, I will not "keep them to" myself. Your suggestion that I "move on and possibly find another hobby" is amusing. Thank you for the chuckle. Since I do not sell animals and was fully aware that I may be buying sick snakes from UR, I am not financially stressed nor aggravated. But my heartfelt thanks for your concerns.

And, it is not the industry *I* chose, as you assert. I chose one that is careful with animals, considerate of their customers, thoughtful about the conservation of wildlife. And so if I see an industry that is veering away from that, I'll not lay down and roll over, I'll stand up and call them on it.

I seriously doubt F/W could test for anything beyond entry in the US. Confiscation, YES but in order to go into your facility they would need a warrant. That is not going to happen either. As a point of information , the testing that we went through (providing blood samples) because of the Ball Python issue, was voluntary.

Insofar as motivation to sell animals, and profit remarks, would be best well served if you keep them to yourself and keep politics out of this venue. At this point, the greater good would be best served if you move on and possibly find another hobby that may be less aggravating or financially less stressful. Nothing further as i pointed out can be accomplished with Underground .

Then again, thats not to say that the problem may not rear its ugly head from other dealers under other circumstances. Thats the industry we chose Joe ! Sometimes it may not provide the enjoyment we would love to see .

More importantly, as i indicated when i first got involved, there are those out there who would love to prevent you from even having a snake. JERRY

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

No, I'm a chemist actually. Was this thread about how much money I make or was there a different reason you started it? I forget, you've strayed pretty far off topic with that post

My point is that the Lacey act doesn't affect animals that are cheap, so of course you're completely ignorant to the whole situation and have no idea what they've done in the last couple years. Someone who doesn't have any money or care invested in more valuable animals wouldn't be affected by it, and whether willfully or unintentionally, be completely clueless about it. I'm not saying it's your fault, just that when you own animals purchased with lunch money you maybe aren't the most informed as to how the pet trade operates or how much people and groups try to control it.

 

[snakesareawesome]

I may be proven wrong, but I don't think so. Quite frankly, I will be surprised if the ESA isn't heavily stripped down over the next four years much less any new restrictions brought on.

 

[thamnophis123]

It was right there in the quote below your post ...

"I guess if you worked with animals worth more than $3 you might have been aware of it, but I know everyone has their own budget."

And like I said - this from a guy who sells ball pythons for a living. A real boss, huh?

This isnt about the Lacey Act, my chemist genius, its about injurious wildlife. Look it up.

No, I'm a chemist actually. Was this thread about how much money I make or was there a different reason you started it? I forget, you've strayed pretty far off topic with that post

My point is that the Lacey act doesn't affect animals that are cheap, so of course you're completely ignorant to the whole situation and have no idea what they've done in the last couple years. Someone who doesn't have any money or care invested in more valuable animals wouldn't be affected by it, and whether willfully or unintentionally, be completely clueless about it. I'm not saying it's your fault, just that when you own animals purchased with lunch money you maybe aren't the most informed as to how the pet trade operates or how much people and groups try to control it.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I don't sell ball pythons for a living. Weren't you the one talking about reading comprehension earlier in this thread? You didn't even have to comprehend what I said, you just had to read it lol. I can tell you got your feelings hurt though so I'll leave you be, no point in talking to someone who's so emotional that they can't decipher one sentence Good luck with your snakes, maybe next time throw out the extra $2 and get CB instead of WC? Just a friendly suggestion.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

If people want to go on legislative tangents, there is a place for that.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=456

This thread is about Underground Reptiles and things associated with Underground Reptiles (in this context, snakes that are ill that were purchased from Underground Reptiles). Not side topics several times removed.

 

[Logan256]

Good luck with your snakes, maybe next time throw out the extra $2 and get CB instead of WC? Just a friendly suggestion.

As someone who has kept and invested thousands in retics, burms, boas, and other large constrictors for over a decade now and as someone who was personally burned by the Lacey Act, I do still feel strongly about this issue. If indeed these cases of SFD originated from Underground's animals and if they continue to sell infected animals unchecked (by themselves or someone else)...it's a problem. If any large supplier is selling infected animals of any sort and are doing so knowingly...it's a problem. That's not taking into consideration the damage infected animals could do to private collections if this spreads to other species within an infected facility. I would personally love to hear Underground's take on all of this and see where they're at on the issue.

As a side note, I did spend the extra $2 to get a CB baby from Underground...and it seems that, unfortunately, the price bump didn't help me much with this particular issue

 

[bcr229]

Joe - Did you let Underground Reptiles know about the positive SFD diagnosis? Have you heard what, if anything, Underground Reptiles plans to do about it? Have they mentioned contacting other customers who purchased this species, or letting their supplier(s) know?

 

[thamnophis123]

I haven't called UR yet today. I will after I get the lab results in hand tomorrow. When I spoke with hem last week they were noncommittal. For obvious reasons, they didn't want to admit to anything, or commit to anything. Florida Fish and Wildlife may be key in their response here.

The reason I stared this thread was to connect other who have had experience with UR and sick animals. So your point is well taken. No one, as far as I know is worried about getting money back, even though some of us have spent real cash on this problem.

Joe - Did you let Underground Reptiles know about the positive SFD diagnosis? Have you heard what, if anything, Underground Reptiles plans to do about it? Have they mentioned contacting other customers who purchased this species, or letting their supplier(s) know?