• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

    =====================
    Posted 08/15/2025
    =====================


    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

I hope this doesn't go off topic, but I think it relates to the thread or at least the BOI in general.

Joe, you need to not take things so personally. Seriously. I'm not saying that to be a jerk....but getting asked questions and requests for proof are absolutely standard in the BOI. No one is trying to besmirch your character by asking about "real" vet reports. Go find the thread where the guy literally wrote up counterfeit reports and posted them. People who are asking questions are coming from a place of having seen some these things and not wanting to get burned again.

Besides, it's hard to make the argument that you're getting picked on when you've been doing some name calling and some petty insults as well. I think you can make your case without that. Not everyone is going to agree with you - agree to disagree and move on. Yes, there were some unpleasant posts but you did some of that too.

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time. I just hate to see an important issue get buried in a lot of arguing about other stuff. That doesn't help anyone, does it?
 
I have temporarily excused thamnophis123 from the forum for while. Favorites are not played here when it comes to infractions, as a handful of you that received them in this very thread can attest to.

Some folks receive an infraction and change for the better. Other folks do not. Other folks continue to accumulate more and more infraction points until the system automatically bans them for a predetermined time frame, this is where thamnophis123 finds himself.

If he decides he wants to return later on, he is welcome to. Repeated antagonism towards moderators, both publicly and behind the scenes is not tolerated, especially when multiple prior warnings were issued regarding BOI rules.

As was stated earlier in the thread... fair is fair.
 
I think for me personally, the point when I was absolutely sure that I was right to question joe's integrity and intent was when he sent me multiple pm's calling me names because I disagreed with him here and then said he was going to come to WA to fight me lol. But you know, good guys do that all that time. Take that how you will, it was pretty obvious to me what type of person he was from the very beginning. I've seen enough of these "inquiry" threads.

I suppose to me, he comes across as someone who is so ridiculous that there is no way I could believe any of his claims or allegations made against any company or person. Feel free to come to your own conclusions, but someone who flies off the handle and tries insulting (or fighting) anyone who asks questions or disagrees doesn't strike me as the "caring, considerate person looking out for the animals with nothing against underground and nothing to gain but the spread of information".

There is undoubtedly something else going on here.
 
The thread has gone drastically off point ( I am guilty of this by calling out a moderator's writing style) and I, for one, will try to only focus on what is overwhelmingly important here from now on. That is the potential inadvertent introduction of SFD into our native snake populations by companies like Underground and others. I am still hopeful UR will respond to this thread.
 
tlmoon said:
I hope this doesn't go off topic, but I think it relates to the thread or at least the BOI in general.

Joe, you need to not take things so personally. Seriously. I'm not saying that to be a jerk....but getting asked questions and requests for proof are absolutely standard in the BOI. No one is trying to besmirch your character by asking about "real" vet reports. Go find the thread where the guy literally wrote up counterfeit reports and posted them. People who are asking questions are coming from a place of having seen some these things and not wanting to get burned again.

Besides, it's hard to make the argument that you're getting picked on when you've been doing some name calling and some petty insults as well. I think you can make your case without that. Not everyone is going to agree with you - agree to disagree and move on. Yes, there were some unpleasant posts but you did some of that too.

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time. I just hate to see an important issue get buried in a lot of arguing about other stuff. That doesn't help anyone, does it?
Click to expand...

thamnophis123 said:
and going so far as to imply I just *might* have forged the receipt - the very evidence she was demanding I show - that I got from my vet.
Click to expand...
If you are referring to me, you are completely incorrect. I used the word 'alleged' which is often used with uncorroborated evidence, and when a couple of people asked about it, I explained, each time making sure to say that the item might be genuine but because of past BOI experience, without corroboration it was difficult to be certain.
 
tim brophy said:
I am hopeful mods will lift Joe's ban. Results are posted, on SFD Facebook page.
Thank you.
Click to expand...

Tim, do you mind posting them here for those of us who aren't members of those groups? I also know a lot of fauna members aren't too fond of facebook in general :p

We can obviously wait until his ban is up, but if you have access to them and don't mind taking a minute I'm sure some members would appreciate it.
 
I will do my best. I am out in the field delineating wetlands, using my phone so bear with me. The test was run by the veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory, college of Veterinart Science, University of Illinois. Run by Dr. Allender, who is an expert in SFD, having published several papers. Joe Monahan's snake had a Positive test of 29,300 copies. 10 copies of Ophidiomyces per reaction is considered positive.
So not only was it positive, it was extremely high. Please realize I am not a vet by any stretch and I am interpreting the results as best I can. Hopefully, one of the vets who frequents BOI will chime in also and explain the results better than me.
 
I have seen firsthand the effects of SFD and it truly is devastating. Anyone who has a collection of snakes they are passionate about, might think twice about purchasing from them. Twofold problem as I see it. First, the potential damage to our native snake populations if SFD infected snakes are released into the wild. Say what you wish about Joe, but he took the effort and expense to have his animals tested. Some 12 year old kid who buys an infected snake would likely just release it. Thus unwittingly potentially infecting healthy populations.
Second, you buy an infected snake, it could infect your collection. For some of us, that would be heart breaking.
April, sorry about releasing those results. I did not know it was contrary to your rules.
 
MCMB Reptiles said:
I think for me personally, the point when I was absolutely sure that I was right to question joe's integrity and intent was when he sent me multiple pm's calling me names because I disagreed with him here and then said he was going to come to WA to fight me lol. But you know, good guys do that all that time. Take that how you will, it was pretty obvious to me what type of person he was from the very beginning. I've seen enough of these "inquiry" threads.

I suppose to me, he comes across as someone who is so ridiculous that there is no way I could believe any of his claims or allegations made against any company or person. Feel free to come to your own conclusions, but someone who flies off the handle and tries insulting (or fighting) anyone who asks questions or disagrees doesn't strike me as the "caring, considerate person looking out for the animals with nothing against underground and nothing to gain but the spread of information".

There is undoubtedly something else going on here.
Click to expand...


Oh boy. Well, I try to see the good in people but it sounds like the OP was acting badly even more than was publicly posted in his responses. A person without other issues or motivations doesn't need to do those things to prove their point and I agree that repeatedly engaging in that behavior pretty much wipes out any credibility he might have had. It sounds like he has some anger management issues and just wants to argue. I agree with you Nick, something else is going on here.
 
Even if you don't like Joe, the fact is his snake did test positive and what about Logan who also received a snake with similar symptoms? Let's pretend for a second that Joe's snake somehow got infected after he received it (which is about as far as I'd be willing to reach already) what are the odds that Logan's snake also got infected post facto? If it tests positive, what a coincidence that would be to try and explain.
 
tlmoon said:
Oh boy. Well, I try to see the good in people but it sounds like the OP was acting badly even more than was publicly posted in his responses. A person without other issues or motivations doesn't need to do those things to prove their point and I agree that repeatedly engaging in that behavior pretty much wipes out any credibility he might have had. It sounds like he has some anger management issues and just wants to argue. I agree with you Nick, something else is going on here.
Click to expand...

I do not condone all of his behavior, and he should have counted to ten before responding a few times (ok, maybe he should have counted to 100). But I am very glad he brought this to light in the first place. It was just a matter of time before one of the dealers who sell wild caught snakes inadvertently sold infected ones.
 
tim brophy said:
April, sorry about releasing those results. I did not know it was contrary to your rules.
Click to expand...

Your interpretation of the results was fine to post.
Screenshots of what banned members post/say from other sites is what we'd prefer was avoided as it is giving them a voice here when they are not (currently) allowed, that's all.
 
snakesareawesome said:
Even if you don't like Joe, the fact is his snake did test positive and what about Logan who also received a snake with similar symptoms? Let's pretend for a second that Joe's snake somehow got infected after he received it (which is about as far as I'd be willing to reach already) what are the odds that Logan's snake also got infected post facto? If it tests positive, what a coincidence that would be to try and explain.
Click to expand...
Considering that Joe's initial quarantine enclosure was pretty basic, kept cleaned and sanitized regularly, and kept dry, I would find it impossible to believe that the snakes picked up SFD after they were shipped to him. That would also indicate that he had SFD in his collection before the water snakes arrived, and nothing else he has is showing symptoms.

More concerning is that Joe's snakes were shipped in July and Logan's were shipped in late September. How many SFD+ snakes went out during those two months?
 
bcr229 said:
Considering that Joe's initial quarantine enclosure was pretty basic, kept cleaned and sanitized regularly, and kept dry, I would find it impossible to believe that the snakes picked up SFD after they were shipped to him. That would also indicate that he had SFD in his collection before the water snakes arrived, and nothing else he has is showing symptoms.

More concerning is that Joe's snakes were shipped in July and Logan's were shipped in late September. How many SFD+ snakes went out during those two months?
Click to expand...

Joe is meticulous in setting up his enclosures. He is a proponent of naturalistic displays and gave the water snakes appropriate conditions for drying out entirely. He also is an advocate of keeping species most of us ignore, e.g. watersnakes. He only went to Underground Reptiles because they sell water snakes. Few dealers do. The herp market for water snakes is small and most are wild caught, or are collected as pregnant females from the wild and held until they give live birth. I can imagine the conditions in which these so-called captive born baby water snakes were kept in. Females have very large clutches, hence they are pretty inexpensive snakes.

Ironically, I doubt that Underground Reptiles made much money on water snakes. But I do wonder if they exported to Europe and Asia?
 
tlmoon said:
A person without other issues or motivations doesn't need to do those things to prove their point and I agree that repeatedly engaging in that behavior pretty much wipes out any credibility he might have had.
Click to expand...
Assuming this "bullying" actually happened as stated, I don't think it really plays any meaningful part in determining one's credibility. At worst, it shows that someone lacks effective mechanisms for coping with passive-aggression and the casual tossing-about of effectively unfalsifiable claims regarding his motives. Not everyone has the same interest in playing the wording game that typically accompanies disputes on here. I've known some pretty credible people who'd have no qualms with unambiguously telling someone to :censored: themselves when the need arose. I'm happen to be one of them. Real people say some real :censored: sometimes.

OP claimed to have received snakes from Underground that were sick. That definitely appears to be the case. Pending the posting of the official lab findings, his assertion that it was likely SFD is also correct. While there may be variables which could be used to cast doubt on just where the infections originated, I think Logan's pending lab results could definitely work toward eliminating some of that doubt. When presented with a scenario involving at least two ostensibly unrelated individuals receiving animals from the same business, that happened to manifest symptoms of the same fairly obscure fungal infection, Occam's razor easily justifies the idea that a common source is a very plausible one - in my eyes, more plausible than the alternatives.

All things considered, I'm not really seeing any noteworthy lack of credibility coming from the OP's side of the fence. I think his credibility rating is well above a certain other individual whose much-more-incriminating actions you've recently chosen to view in the kindest possible light.
 
I'm inclined to agree with Dan, joe's attitude doesn't negate evidence or facts that have been presented here. The photos exist, the results exist, and trying to spin it and pretend it means something else isn't being fair.

To me, his behavior and attitude indicate simply that the motive is not what Joe claims. I don't see someone who acts this way and talks to people this way as someone "just trying to help out". The language, reactions, EVERYTHING basically say otherwise.

I still stand by my argument that this never should have been brought up until the results came back. In this case it happened to be true, but that does not mean it was the right decision. Once it's verified it's important to discuss, but until then it should not be stated as fact.

If Logan's snake also comes back positive, I think that's pretty decent evidence that the disease originated with UR. As of now that seems to be the case, regardless of anyone's feelings towards the OP. But I still think there's another motive here.
 
Back
Top